First off all, thanks again for this great software! It´s amazing that somepeople like you offer their knoledge and time so generousily!
That said, I want to share my/our experience, data and ...problem of 20 people trying to sing at the same time using Jamulus
Yes....we are a chorus, and I am the director.
The following is a request for help (so please don´t take it like a complain of any kind!).
The facts: Everything goes ok (sound quality, delay times, etc..) until the moment the member number 11 (and subsecuents) get into the "rehersal sala". From thah moment on the pings and overall delays start increasing, the buffers in the clients and server start increasing to (stabilizing at about 10 or 11 each), and everybody start to sound like singing under the water, and overall delays increase from 30 - 40 to 70-80-even 100 ms!!!
Before deciding to write this post, and to be sure to be technical and concrete, I have been controlling all the ther posible variables causing the problem, and I want to share it with you, so you can get the all and right picture of the situation:
SERVER: is a private server, installed at home, in an AMD machine, 3 Ghz, 4 cores CPU, 8Gb memmory. With the 20 singers conected core0: 29%, core1:12%, core2:26%, core3:23%, ram utilization:2,2 Gb (of 8 Gb), BUT the internet upload is allways in no more than 3,9-4 Mbps (I´ll come back abit this in a moment because I guess, that´s the main factor of the problem..but let me continue with the elimination of other posible causes of the problem):
CLIENTS: Everybody is conected by ethernet cable at their routers at home, wifi disconected, headphones and mics ok, machines optimized for minimal posible latency in each pc (I did myself one by one via Teamviewer during the last month!!), only necessary tasks and processes running in the backround, antivirus off, maximun speed and performance in the pcs, etc, etc... and when we are no more than 10 people, as i said before, everything is really ok!!
NETWORK-INTERNET QUALITY: At the moement of the problem (when the underwater singing comes with all 20 members conected!) the figures of the net measured in the server machines, are: Download:110.4 Mbps, Upload : 8.7 Mbps (My plan is 100 Mbps Down, 8 Mbps Up...so , is ok!).
Latency (ping) : 6 , Jitter : 5...so, no problem here either.
DISTANCES TO SERVER: all the chorus members are liveng in the same city, at no more than 5 to 10 km form the server, and all of us conected trough tonly two ISP companies: TELECENTRO and FIBERTEL (we are in Quilmes, Buenos Aires, Argentina)
POSIBLE TRHOTTLING OR CONGESTION in the NETWORK??: To discard thos posibilities, I have been speaking with my ISP and they assure that up to the moment no trhotling is been applied like a politic, and to be sure, at the moment of the problem I asked to everybody to disconect from jamulus and I started to upload a 5 Gb HD movie to Google Drive, and I got the full 9 Mbps upload speed (more than the contracted one!). After 10 minuts aprox, I stoped the transfer , ask for everybody to reconect again to jamulus, asked for singing a simple "AH", and could verify that the underwater effect was there again, AND that the server was uploading NO MORE THAN 3,9 Mbps again (It seems to be tha maximun speed than Jamulus can Upload....why??) . If I am not wrong, the math for the upload speed needed for the server send back the mix of 20 people using low quality and mono audio in their machines (which means 306 Kbps each) is: 306 x 20: 6.1 Mbps . So...why is the server just uploading 3,9, 4 at max ?? On the other hand...this value is the one corresponding to the upload speed needed for 10 clients at that low quality ...and that´s the quantity of clients jamulus was designed to, up to the jump to a 50 clients posibilitie...
So..summing it up: After had beeing analizing and discardin all other posibilities, it seems to me that maybe, and only mayby, jamulus was updated to let 50 people connect to the console and server BUT somehow, somewhere in the code, something is still avoiding the good quality that one can get just coneccting only the original 10 client machines.
And now...the help request to Volker and the people who understand about the inside of jamulus...Could you please give me some help on this?? Do I missing somethong in my analisis? and finally , could you please have a look at the code to see if something can be changed/improoved there?
Sorry for the long post, but this is really important to me /us and I just wanted to be serious in the analisis before asking for this help, wich I knows takes you time and effort.
Againg...thanks a lot and...regards from Argentina!
Hugo
I am attaching 2 screens with the data measured at the moment of the problem...
At the moement of the problem (when the underwater singing comes with all 20 members conected!) the figures of the net measured in the server machines, are: Download:110.4 Mbps, Upload : 8.7 Mbps (My plan is 100 Mbps Down, 8 Mbps Up...so , is ok!)
Why is it ok if you measure 8.7 Mbps upstream but you only have 8 Mbps available?
We have reports of about 35 clients connected successfully to one Jamulus server at a time. So I assume that your upload rate is the limitation factor here.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hi Volker! and thanks for your soon answer.
maybe I didnt explain myself clearly. Sorry about that...
My contracted internet speeds are "minimun warranted " by the ISP: 100 D / 8 U , so that´s why I said "is ok" when I meassure more than those figures. That means that my ISP is honoring the offered service.
At the same time, do I am wrong when I said that for 20 people at 306 kbps each the server needs no more than 6.12 Mbps upload speed capacity? in that case, and having minimun 8 Mbps available at my server...why do you say that the upload rate is the limitation factor here?? Sorry if I missunderstanding something. Please, can you clarify ?
By the way...i have been reading the posts about more tan 10 pleople conected and knew about the 30 people experience too. In fact..we had been rehearsaling despite of the sound quality isue , but I just wanted to point that even if it it posible to work and sing that way (with pops and garbbled sound ) I know that jamulus performs better than that (at least for us ) with less people conected.
So, If you said that is nothing to be checked about in the code...or anywhere else, we´ll just have to live with it like it is.
Thanks again for your time an effort about all this project !!
We really apreciate it!
Regards
Hugo
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Volker...a final question...
I realize just now that everybody at my chorus is using version 3.5.8 and that I am the only one with version 3.5.9 on the server machine, and at my client laptop.
Can it be cause of any trouble related to sound quality? or any other isues??
Just to know....
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hi Volker and Jamulus community!
First off all, thanks again for this great software! It´s amazing that somepeople like you offer their knoledge and time so generousily!
That said, I want to share my/our experience, data and ...problem of 20 people trying to sing at the same time using Jamulus
Yes....we are a chorus, and I am the director.
The following is a request for help (so please don´t take it like a complain of any kind!).
The facts: Everything goes ok (sound quality, delay times, etc..) until the moment the member number 11 (and subsecuents) get into the "rehersal sala". From thah moment on the pings and overall delays start increasing, the buffers in the clients and server start increasing to (stabilizing at about 10 or 11 each), and everybody start to sound like singing under the water, and overall delays increase from 30 - 40 to 70-80-even 100 ms!!!
Before deciding to write this post, and to be sure to be technical and concrete, I have been controlling all the ther posible variables causing the problem, and I want to share it with you, so you can get the all and right picture of the situation:
SERVER: is a private server, installed at home, in an AMD machine, 3 Ghz, 4 cores CPU, 8Gb memmory. With the 20 singers conected core0: 29%, core1:12%, core2:26%, core3:23%, ram utilization:2,2 Gb (of 8 Gb), BUT the internet upload is allways in no more than 3,9-4 Mbps (I´ll come back abit this in a moment because I guess, that´s the main factor of the problem..but let me continue with the elimination of other posible causes of the problem):
CLIENTS: Everybody is conected by ethernet cable at their routers at home, wifi disconected, headphones and mics ok, machines optimized for minimal posible latency in each pc (I did myself one by one via Teamviewer during the last month!!), only necessary tasks and processes running in the backround, antivirus off, maximun speed and performance in the pcs, etc, etc... and when we are no more than 10 people, as i said before, everything is really ok!!
NETWORK-INTERNET QUALITY: At the moement of the problem (when the underwater singing comes with all 20 members conected!) the figures of the net measured in the server machines, are: Download:110.4 Mbps, Upload : 8.7 Mbps (My plan is 100 Mbps Down, 8 Mbps Up...so , is ok!).
Latency (ping) : 6 , Jitter : 5...so, no problem here either.
DISTANCES TO SERVER: all the chorus members are liveng in the same city, at no more than 5 to 10 km form the server, and all of us conected trough tonly two ISP companies: TELECENTRO and FIBERTEL (we are in Quilmes, Buenos Aires, Argentina)
POSIBLE TRHOTTLING OR CONGESTION in the NETWORK??: To discard thos posibilities, I have been speaking with my ISP and they assure that up to the moment no trhotling is been applied like a politic, and to be sure, at the moment of the problem I asked to everybody to disconect from jamulus and I started to upload a 5 Gb HD movie to Google Drive, and I got the full 9 Mbps upload speed (more than the contracted one!). After 10 minuts aprox, I stoped the transfer , ask for everybody to reconect again to jamulus, asked for singing a simple "AH", and could verify that the underwater effect was there again, AND that the server was uploading NO MORE THAN 3,9 Mbps again (It seems to be tha maximun speed than Jamulus can Upload....why??) . If I am not wrong, the math for the upload speed needed for the server send back the mix of 20 people using low quality and mono audio in their machines (which means 306 Kbps each) is: 306 x 20: 6.1 Mbps . So...why is the server just uploading 3,9, 4 at max ?? On the other hand...this value is the one corresponding to the upload speed needed for 10 clients at that low quality ...and that´s the quantity of clients jamulus was designed to, up to the jump to a 50 clients posibilitie...
So..summing it up: After had beeing analizing and discardin all other posibilities, it seems to me that maybe, and only mayby, jamulus was updated to let 50 people connect to the console and server BUT somehow, somewhere in the code, something is still avoiding the good quality that one can get just coneccting only the original 10 client machines.
And now...the help request to Volker and the people who understand about the inside of jamulus...Could you please give me some help on this?? Do I missing somethong in my analisis? and finally , could you please have a look at the code to see if something can be changed/improoved there?
Sorry for the long post, but this is really important to me /us and I just wanted to be serious in the analisis before asking for this help, wich I knows takes you time and effort.
Againg...thanks a lot and...regards from Argentina!
Hugo
I am attaching 2 screens with the data measured at the moment of the problem...
Why is it ok if you measure 8.7 Mbps upstream but you only have 8 Mbps available?
We have reports of about 35 clients connected successfully to one Jamulus server at a time. So I assume that your upload rate is the limitation factor here.
Hi Volker! and thanks for your soon answer.
maybe I didnt explain myself clearly. Sorry about that...
My contracted internet speeds are "minimun warranted " by the ISP: 100 D / 8 U , so that´s why I said "is ok" when I meassure more than those figures. That means that my ISP is honoring the offered service.
At the same time, do I am wrong when I said that for 20 people at 306 kbps each the server needs no more than 6.12 Mbps upload speed capacity? in that case, and having minimun 8 Mbps available at my server...why do you say that the upload rate is the limitation factor here?? Sorry if I missunderstanding something. Please, can you clarify ?
By the way...i have been reading the posts about more tan 10 pleople conected and knew about the 30 people experience too. In fact..we had been rehearsaling despite of the sound quality isue , but I just wanted to point that even if it it posible to work and sing that way (with pops and garbbled sound ) I know that jamulus performs better than that (at least for us ) with less people conected.
So, If you said that is nothing to be checked about in the code...or anywhere else, we´ll just have to live with it like it is.
Thanks again for your time an effort about all this project !!
We really apreciate it!
Regards
Hugo
You could try out to rent a virtual server at Google or Amazon. A lot of people do that and they report of good quality.
Ok!
I will search about it.
Thanks for the advice!
Regards.
You could checkout this: https://www.facebook.com/notes/jamulus-world-jam/howto-idiots-guide-to-installing-jamulus-server-on-amazon-aws-lightsail-ubuntu-i/507719749802976/
Volker...a final question...
I realize just now that everybody at my chorus is using version 3.5.8 and that I am the only one with version 3.5.9 on the server machine, and at my client laptop.
Can it be cause of any trouble related to sound quality? or any other isues??
Just to know....
No, that should make no difference.
OK,
thanks a lot!