jython-dev

[Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Albert C. <sap...@gm...>]

Hi all,

I would like to see jython development moving forward, and I would
appreciate information on how to assist the existing jython developers
to do so.

First towards completing the 2.7.2 release towards out of alpha (it
has a critical bug fix that I care a lot about:
https://bugs.jython.org/issue2487).

Second towards entering python 3 with a stable release (I've only been
able to find https://github.com/jython/jython3 which is labels itself
as an early alpha stage).

Question 1: are any developers active presently?

Question 2: where do you get your funding from, and would you commit
to reach the above two milestones provided more funding was available,
or should I aim at recruiting new developers?

Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
and if not, why not?

Thanks very much.

Albert Cardona
--
Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
University of Cambridge, UK.
https://albert.rierol.net
https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Jeff A. <ja...@fa...>]

Hi Albert, thanks for your interest.

1. I'm an active developer, and a few others, either submitting code 
(https://hg.python.org/jython/) or answering on issues or the web site. 
It is fair to say momentum is low, but 2.7.2b looks within reach and I'd 
really like to get the fix you mention out there. (I was on the verge of 
re-assessing our "blockers".) When that is out for evaluation, by good 
folk like you, I intend to revivify Jython 3.

2. We are a Python Software Foundation project and grateful for the 
continuing support we get in terms of infrastructure. No money changes 
hands AFAIK: I'm not sure we would know what to do with actual funding. 
(The PSF might.) We are all volunteers: I am working entirely in my own 
time. Contributors in the past sometimes had employer support/time. New 
contributors would be a help, and we try to be supportive when someone 
drops in.

3. I don't properly understand your question 3. (So simple answer "No 
and er ... ".) I understand RPython to be a restricted dialect 
underlying the PyPy implementation, but have not delved further. What do 
you mean by "JVM backend" here? We make Java bytecode, but it depends on 
the Jython runtime. I believe there was a compiler to Java source once, 
but support stopped before I joined the project. I have a lot of 
alternative ideas for the Jython 3 runtime (we can do much better), but 
I also see value in continuity.

Jeff Allen

On 07/03/2019 14:39, Albert Cardona wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to see jython development moving forward, and I would
> appreciate information on how to assist the existing jython developers
> to do so.
>
> First towards completing the 2.7.2 release towards out of alpha (it
> has a critical bug fix that I care a lot about:
> https://bugs.jython.org/issue2487).
>
> Second towards entering python 3 with a stable release (I've only been
> able to find https://github.com/jython/jython3 which is labels itself
> as an early alpha stage).
>
> Question 1: are any developers active presently?
>
> Question 2: where do you get your funding from, and would you commit
> to reach the above two milestones provided more funding was available,
> or should I aim at recruiting new developers?
>
> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
> and if not, why not?
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Albert Cardona
> --
> Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
> Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
> University of Cambridge, UK.
> https://albert.rierol.net
> https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
> https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-dev mailing list
> Jyt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Phil T. <ph...@tu...>]

Good morning Jeff, Albert,

On 3/8/19 4:18 AM, Jeff Allen wrote:
> Hi Albert, thanks for your interest.
> 
> 1. I'm an active developer, and a few others, either submitting code 
> (https://hg.python.org/jython/) or answering on issues or the web site. 
> It is fair to say momentum is low, but 2.7.2b looks within reach and I'd 
> really like to get the fix you mention out there. (I was on the verge of 
> re-assessing our "blockers".) When that is out for evaluation, by good 
> folk like you, I intend to revivify Jython 3.

This is encouraging news.

> 2. We are a Python Software Foundation project and grateful for the 
> continuing support we get in terms of infrastructure. No money changes 
> hands AFAIK: I'm not sure we would know what to do with actual funding. 
> (The PSF might.) We are all volunteers: I am working entirely in my own 
> time. Contributors in the past sometimes had employer support/time. New 
> contributors would be a help, and we try to be supportive when someone 
> drops in.

I am a small businessman (industrial systems integrator) with active 
java coding projects in an environment that uses jython as its 
customization layer.  I've spent a considerable amount of time and 
effort learning parts of the jython source for integration purposes. 
I've been lurking on this list for some time, as a tool to help absorb 
the bigger jython picture.

You can count this "drop in" as a statement of interest in contributing.

> 3. I don't properly understand your question 3. (So simple answer "No 
> and er ... ".) I understand RPython to be a restricted dialect 
> underlying the PyPy implementation, but have not delved further. What do 
> you mean by "JVM backend" here? We make Java bytecode, but it depends on 
> the Jython runtime. I believe there was a compiler to Java source once, 
> but support stopped before I joined the project. I have a lot of 
> alternative ideas for the Jython 3 runtime (we can do much better), but 
> I also see value in continuity.

Heh.  Never noticed RPython. /:

> Jeff Allen
> 
> On 07/03/2019 14:39, Albert Cardona wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to see jython development moving forward, and I would
>> appreciate information on how to assist the existing jython developers
>> to do so.
>>
>> First towards completing the 2.7.2 release towards out of alpha (it
>> has a critical bug fix that I care a lot about:
>> https://bugs.jython.org/issue2487).
>>
>> Second towards entering python 3 with a stable release (I've only been
>> able to findhttps://github.com/jython/jython3  which is labels itself
>> as an early alpha stage).
>>
>> Question 1: are any developers active presently?
>>
>> Question 2: where do you get your funding from, and would you commit
>> to reach the above two milestones provided more funding was available,
>> or should I aim at recruiting new developers?
>>
>> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
>> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
>> and if not, why not?
>>
>> Thanks very much.
>>
>> Albert Cardona

Regards,

Phil Turmel
Fayetteville, GA, USA

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Albert C. <sap...@gm...>]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you very much for your work on jython and for kindly taking the
time to answer my questions.

I understand now that raising funds, which is within my means as an
academic, to support a full-time developer for 2 years would be
welcomed. Thank you very much for the encouragement. Realistically, it
will take over a year from now, if successful, to get started. While I
can make a convincing case for the use of jython within an academic
environment when tied to e.g. Fiji, the grant funding cycle is slow.
Finding a mature developer will also be hard, as within an academic
environment salaries are limited and generally non-competitive with
industry. But finding a junior or intermediate developer with
experience in java and python, willing to dive into a 2-year stint to
drive jython forward should be feasible.

As an example of jython use in academia, I'd like to point here my
image processing tutorial:
https://www.ini.uzh.ch/~acardona/fiji-tutorial/

I have found teaching python to academics is far easier than any of
the many other alternatives. In my role as a professor in
neuroscience, I intend to introduce jython into biology courses for
senior undergraduates and for graduate students. The many libraries
for the JVM for image processing and numerical computing in general
are a great advantage; in particular, the extraordinary ImgLib2
library https://github.com/imglib/ that abstracts data type,
dimensions and location without a performance loss. And the excellent
multithreading capabilities of the JVM, trivially accessible from
jython, are essential and a killer feature regarding the choice of
python+JVM over other options for modern processing of bioimagery,
ranging from many gigabytes to tens or hundreds of terabytes. To point
that modern scientific research in biology is very heavily dependent
on imaging and subsequent image processing.

On RPython: I was perhaps misled by the jvm translator, a library that
I am not sure is or ever was part of the core RPython repository but
that can be found here
https://aecilius.cecs.anu.edu.au/mu/mu-client-pypy/tree/37ed6f826b4cdc1d8f8e732c22e24d380c762da9/rpython/translator/jvm
.

Will be testing 2.7.2 alpha and report back, hoping in this way to
support jython development in the meanwhile, in addition to continue
to write tutorials based on jython.

Best wishes,

Albert
--
Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
University of Cambridge, UK.
https://albert.rierol.net
https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona

Missatge de Jeff Allen <ja...@fa...> del dia dv., 8 de març
2019 a les 9:18:
>
> Hi Albert, thanks for your interest.
>
> 1. I'm an active developer, and a few others, either submitting code (https://hg.python.org/jython/) or answering on issues or the web site. It is fair to say momentum is low, but 2.7.2b looks within reach and I'd really like to get the fix you mention out there. (I was on the verge of re-assessing our "blockers".) When that is out for evaluation, by good folk like you, I intend to revivify Jython 3.
>
> 2. We are a Python Software Foundation project and grateful for the continuing support we get in terms of infrastructure. No money changes hands AFAIK: I'm not sure we would know what to do with actual funding. (The PSF might.) We are all volunteers: I am working entirely in my own time. Contributors in the past sometimes had employer support/time. New contributors would be a help, and we try to be supportive when someone drops in.
>
> 3. I don't properly understand your question 3. (So simple answer "No and er ... ".) I understand RPython to be a restricted dialect underlying the PyPy implementation, but have not delved further. What do you mean by "JVM backend" here? We make Java bytecode, but it depends on the Jython runtime. I believe there was a compiler to Java source once, but support stopped before I joined the project. I have a lot of alternative ideas for the Jython 3 runtime (we can do much better), but I also see value in continuity.
>
> Jeff Allen
>
> On 07/03/2019 14:39, Albert Cardona wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to see jython development moving forward, and I would
> appreciate information on how to assist the existing jython developers
> to do so.
>
> First towards completing the 2.7.2 release towards out of alpha (it
> has a critical bug fix that I care a lot about:
> https://bugs.jython.org/issue2487).
>
> Second towards entering python 3 with a stable release (I've only been
> able to find https://github.com/jython/jython3 which is labels itself
> as an early alpha stage).
>
> Question 1: are any developers active presently?
>
> Question 2: where do you get your funding from, and would you commit
> to reach the above two milestones provided more funding was available,
> or should I aim at recruiting new developers?
>
> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
> and if not, why not?
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Albert Cardona
> --
> Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
> Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
> University of Cambridge, UK.
> https://albert.rierol.net
> https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
> https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-dev mailing list
> Jyt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Jeff A. <ja...@fa...>]

Hi Albert:

That's a very generous offer that I'm sure we'd like to take up if it 
proves possible for you to obtain funding. We should talk about the 
specific objectives as part of the application.

Also, it's always interesting to hear what people are doing with Jython, 
where it provides a unique advantage, both your work and in Fiji.

It looks like the PyPy "JVM backend" is equivalent to our 
org.python.compiler package, using jasmin as an external program where 
we use ASM.

Jeff

Jeff Allen

On 08/03/2019 14:14, Albert Cardona wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Thank you very much for your work on jython and for kindly taking the
> time to answer my questions.
>
> I understand now that raising funds, which is within my means as an
> academic, to support a full-time developer for 2 years would be
> welcomed. Thank you very much for the encouragement. Realistically, it
> will take over a year from now, if successful, to get started. While I
> can make a convincing case for the use of jython within an academic
> environment when tied to e.g. Fiji, the grant funding cycle is slow.
> Finding a mature developer will also be hard, as within an academic
> environment salaries are limited and generally non-competitive with
> industry. But finding a junior or intermediate developer with
> experience in java and python, willing to dive into a 2-year stint to
> drive jython forward should be feasible.
>
> As an example of jython use in academia, I'd like to point here my
> image processing tutorial:
> https://www.ini.uzh.ch/~acardona/fiji-tutorial/
>
> I have found teaching python to academics is far easier than any of
> the many other alternatives. In my role as a professor in
> neuroscience, I intend to introduce jython into biology courses for
> senior undergraduates and for graduate students. The many libraries
> for the JVM for image processing and numerical computing in general
> are a great advantage; in particular, the extraordinary ImgLib2
> library https://github.com/imglib/ that abstracts data type,
> dimensions and location without a performance loss. And the excellent
> multithreading capabilities of the JVM, trivially accessible from
> jython, are essential and a killer feature regarding the choice of
> python+JVM over other options for modern processing of bioimagery,
> ranging from many gigabytes to tens or hundreds of terabytes. To point
> that modern scientific research in biology is very heavily dependent
> on imaging and subsequent image processing.
>
> On RPython: I was perhaps misled by the jvm translator, a library that
> I am not sure is or ever was part of the core RPython repository but
> that can be found here
> https://aecilius.cecs.anu.edu.au/mu/mu-client-pypy/tree/37ed6f826b4cdc1d8f8e732c22e24d380c762da9/rpython/translator/jvm
> .
>
> Will be testing 2.7.2 alpha and report back, hoping in this way to
> support jython development in the meanwhile, in addition to continue
> to write tutorials based on jython.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Albert
> --
> Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
> Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
> University of Cambridge, UK.
> https://albert.rierol.net
> https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
> https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona
>
> Missatge de Jeff Allen <ja...@fa...> del dia dv., 8 de març
> 2019 a les 9:18:
>> Hi Albert, thanks for your interest.
>>
>> 1. I'm an active developer, and a few others, either submitting code (https://hg.python.org/jython/) or answering on issues or the web site. It is fair to say momentum is low, but 2.7.2b looks within reach and I'd really like to get the fix you mention out there. (I was on the verge of re-assessing our "blockers".) When that is out for evaluation, by good folk like you, I intend to revivify Jython 3.
>>
>> 2. We are a Python Software Foundation project and grateful for the continuing support we get in terms of infrastructure. No money changes hands AFAIK: I'm not sure we would know what to do with actual funding. (The PSF might.) We are all volunteers: I am working entirely in my own time. Contributors in the past sometimes had employer support/time. New contributors would be a help, and we try to be supportive when someone drops in.
>>
>> 3. I don't properly understand your question 3. (So simple answer "No and er ... ".) I understand RPython to be a restricted dialect underlying the PyPy implementation, but have not delved further. What do you mean by "JVM backend" here? We make Java bytecode, but it depends on the Jython runtime. I believe there was a compiler to Java source once, but support stopped before I joined the project. I have a lot of alternative ideas for the Jython 3 runtime (we can do much better), but I also see value in continuity.
>>
>> Jeff Allen
>>
>> On 07/03/2019 14:39, Albert Cardona wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to see jython development moving forward, and I would
>> appreciate information on how to assist the existing jython developers
>> to do so.
>>
>> First towards completing the 2.7.2 release towards out of alpha (it
>> has a critical bug fix that I care a lot about:
>> https://bugs.jython.org/issue2487).
>>
>> Second towards entering python 3 with a stable release (I've only been
>> able to find https://github.com/jython/jython3 which is labels itself
>> as an early alpha stage).
>>
>> Question 1: are any developers active presently?
>>
>> Question 2: where do you get your funding from, and would you commit
>> to reach the above two milestones provided more funding was available,
>> or should I aim at recruiting new developers?
>>
>> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
>> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
>> and if not, why not?
>>
>> Thanks very much.
>>
>> Albert Cardona
>> --
>> Group Leader, HHMI Janelia Research Campus, USA.
>> Reader (Associate Professor), Dept. Physiol. Dev. Neurosci.,
>> University of Cambridge, UK.
>> https://albert.rierol.net
>> https://www.janelia.org/lab/cardona-lab/
>> https://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/directory/albert-cardona
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jython-dev mailing list
>> Jyt...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>>

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[<fwi...@gm...>]

Thanks very much for the offer to help! Others have given great
answers to (1) and (2), I can give a more detailed answer for (3):

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 6:40 AM Albert Cardona <sap...@gm...> wrote:
> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
> and if not, why not?
I discussed this with the PyPy folks some years back. It's a very
interesting prospect but it has a major stumbling block: a big
advantage that Jython has is the ability to leverage the advances in
the underlying JVM. It would be very difficult to utilize these
advances in a JVM oriented PyPy because PyPy has its own technologies
in these areas deeply baked in. To take one major example, Jython uses
the garbage collection technologies provided by the JVM, where a JVM
PyPy implementation would use the PyPy developed garbage collection
mechanisms which would not be as effective as the JVM native version.
The expense of trying to route around PyPy's technology in these areas
was deemed to high (for these reasons I think work on the JVM PyPy has
been stalled for a very long time).

-Frank

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Albert C. <sap...@gm...>]

Thank you Frank for touching on #3! This was clarifying.

Albert

Missatge de fwi...@gm... <fwi...@gm...> del dia dl.,
11 de març 2019 a les 17:03:
>
> Thanks very much for the offer to help! Others have given great
> answers to (1) and (2), I can give a more detailed answer for (3):
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 6:40 AM Albert Cardona <sap...@gm...> wrote:
> > Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
> > tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
> > and if not, why not?
> I discussed this with the PyPy folks some years back. It's a very
> interesting prospect but it has a major stumbling block: a big
> advantage that Jython has is the ability to leverage the advances in
> the underlying JVM. It would be very difficult to utilize these
> advances in a JVM oriented PyPy because PyPy has its own technologies
> in these areas deeply baked in. To take one major example, Jython uses
> the garbage collection technologies provided by the JVM, where a JVM
> PyPy implementation would use the PyPy developed garbage collection
> mechanisms which would not be as effective as the JVM native version.
> The expense of trying to route around PyPy's technology in these areas
> was deemed to high (for these reasons I think work on the JVM PyPy has
> been stalled for a very long time).
>
> -Frank

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Tobias K. <jy...@to...>]

  Hello Everyone,

As I am a research associate at the computer laboratory in Cambridge,  
I would also be interested in collaborating on a project to move  
Jython forward within an academic setting.

/> Also, it's always interesting to hear what people are doing with  
Jython, where it provides a unique advantage, both your work and in  
Fiji./

On the danger of going slightly off topic, may I add that I have found  
Jython to be a great and outstandingly helpful tool in my work, too.   
While I was teaching programming in high schools, I found Python to be  
a superb language, while IDLE and Python's standard packages were  
quite limited and limiting.  Since I was not allowed to install any  
software on the computers, but could run a Java application, I turned  
to Jython and built an education programming environment "TigerJython"  
on top of Jython [1, 2].  My initial "hack" turned into a PhD thesis  
and quickly gained large popularity in Switzerland.  It is by now one  
of the most frequently used programming environment in schools, and is  
being adopted in other countries as well.

Indeed, the easy integration with Java turned out to be an essential  
feature and great asset, as it allowed to continue using libraries  
formerly designed for Java.  This also led to a collaboration where we  
used Jython as a basis for music-based programming [3].

So, yes, Jython is really great work and extremely useful.  Thank you all!

Kind regards,
Tobias Kohn

[1]  http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/
[2]  https://tobiaskohn.ch/index.php/research/research-tigerjython/
[3]  https://jythonmusic.me/

Quoting fwi...@gm...:

> Thanks very much for the offer to help! Others have given great
> answers to (1) and (2), I can give a more detailed answer for (3):
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 6:40 AM Albert Cardona <sap...@gm...> wrote:
>> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
>> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
>> and if not, why not?
>
> I discussed this with the PyPy folks some years back. It's a very
> interesting prospect but it has a major stumbling block: a big
> advantage that Jython has is the ability to leverage the advances in
> the underlying JVM. It would be very difficult to utilize these
> advances in a JVM oriented PyPy because PyPy has its own technologies
> in these areas deeply baked in. To take one major example, Jython uses
> the garbage collection technologies provided by the JVM, where a JVM
> PyPy implementation would use the PyPy developed garbage collection
> mechanisms which would not be as effective as the JVM native version.
> The expense of trying to route around PyPy's technology in these areas
> was deemed to high (for these reasons I think work on the JVM PyPy has
> been stalled for a very long time).
>
> -Frank
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-dev mailing list
> Jyt...@li...https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[James M. <jam...@gm...>]

Its really great to hear about these projects using Jython. I feel we
should do more, to try and collect together these examples, to promote
Jython.

I'm not sure whats the best way of doing this is, but for now could I
encourage you to take a look at the new Jython website
https://jython.github.io/ and contribute a pull request to
https://github.com/jython/jython.github.io/ to add your projects to the
"Who uses Jython?" section. I'm starting to think we should move this to a
separate page but for now would be great to have more projects listed.

James Mudd

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 16:02, Tobias Kohn <jy...@to...> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> As I am a research associate at the computer laboratory in Cambridge, I
> would also be interested in collaborating on a project to move Jython
> forward within an academic setting.
>
>
> *> Also, it's always interesting to hear what people are doing with
> Jython, where it provides a unique advantage, both your work and in Fiji.*
>
> On the danger of going slightly off topic, may I add that I have found
> Jython to be a great and outstandingly helpful tool in my work, too.  While
> I was teaching programming in high schools, I found Python to be a superb
> language, while IDLE and Python's standard packages were quite limited and
> limiting.  Since I was not allowed to install any software on the
> computers, but could run a Java application, I turned to Jython and built
> an education programming environment "TigerJython" on top of Jython [1,
> 2].  My initial "hack" turned into a PhD thesis and quickly gained large
> popularity in Switzerland.  It is by now one of the most frequently used
> programming environment in schools, and is being adopted in other countries
> as well.
>
> Indeed, the easy integration with Java turned out to be an essential
> feature and great asset, as it allowed to continue using libraries formerly
> designed for Java.  This also led to a collaboration where we used Jython
> as a basis for music-based programming [3].
>
> So, yes, Jython is really great work and extremely useful.  Thank you all!
>
> Kind regards,
> Tobias Kohn
>
>
> [1]  http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/
> [2]  https://tobiaskohn.ch/index.php/research/research-tigerjython/
> [3]  https://jythonmusic.me/
>
>
>
>
> Quoting fwi...@gm...:
>
> Thanks very much for the offer to help! Others have given great
> answers to (1) and (2), I can give a more detailed answer for (3):
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 6:40 AM Albert Cardona <sap...@gm...> wrote:
>
> Question 3: rpython (from pypy) used to have a jvm backend in its git
> tree. I assume jython developers have considered pursuing that route,
> and if not, why not?
>
> I discussed this with the PyPy folks some years back. It's a very
> interesting prospect but it has a major stumbling block: a big
> advantage that Jython has is the ability to leverage the advances in
> the underlying JVM. It would be very difficult to utilize these
> advances in a JVM oriented PyPy because PyPy has its own technologies
> in these areas deeply baked in. To take one major example, Jython uses
> the garbage collection technologies provided by the JVM, where a JVM
> PyPy implementation would use the PyPy developed garbage collection
> mechanisms which would not be as effective as the JVM native version.
> The expense of trying to route around PyPy's technology in these areas
> was deemed to high (for these reasons I think work on the JVM PyPy has
> been stalled for a very long time).
>
> -Frank
>
>
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>
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Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Jeff A. <ja...@fa...>]

Tobias:

This looks really good. Congratulations. I have faced the same problem 
but didn't know about TigerJython.

I'm pleased we played a part. I only wish we could have a had a Python 3 
for you.

Jeff Allen

On 12/03/2019 15:45, Tobias Kohn wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> As I am a research associate at the computer laboratory in Cambridge, 
> I would also be interested in collaborating on a project to move 
> Jython forward within an academic setting.
>
>
> /> Also, it's always interesting to hear what people are doing with 
> Jython, where it provides a unique advantage, both your work and in Fiji./
>
> On the danger of going slightly off topic, may I add that I have found 
> Jython to be a great and outstandingly helpful tool in my work, too.  
> While I was teaching programming in high schools, I found Python to be 
> a superb language, while IDLE and Python's standard packages were 
> quite limited and limiting.  Since I was not allowed to install any 
> software on the computers, but could run a Java application, I turned 
> to Jython and built an education programming environment "TigerJython" 
> on top of Jython [1, 2].  My initial "hack" turned into a PhD thesis 
> and quickly gained large popularity in Switzerland.  It is by now one 
> of the most frequently used programming environment in schools, and is 
> being adopted in other countries as well.
>
> Indeed, the easy integration with Java turned out to be an essential 
> feature and great asset, as it allowed to continue using libraries 
> formerly designed for Java.  This also led to a collaboration where we 
> used Jython as a basis for music-based programming [3].
>
> So, yes, Jython is really great work and extremely useful. Thank you all!
>
> Kind regards,
> Tobias Kohn
>
>
> [1] http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/
> [2] https://tobiaskohn.ch/index.php/research/research-tigerjython/
> [3] https://jythonmusic.me/
>

Re: [Jython-dev] funding jython development

[Tobias K. <jy...@to...>]

  Hi Jeff and James,

Thank you very much for the positive feedback, and getting the  
opportunity to add a link to your webpage.  I really appreciate it!

Concerning Python 3, that has not been that much of an issue, to be  
honest.  I found that one of the most important things was to have  
Python-3-division (where / always returns a float and // is used for  
integer division), which is already supported by Jython out of the  
box.  Other changes like having a dialog box come up for user input  
were quite easy to put in, and these things do not have that much to  
do with what version of Python you are using.

With TigerJython's increase in popularity, the request for Python 3  
has started to sporadically come up, and I think it would be a good  
and important way forward.  But at the time being it is not that big  
of a deal for us, yet.

Unfortunately, a much bigger concern has recently been that more and  
more schools are using tablets with no support for Java whatsoever.   
This means that we had to create an additional browser-based version,  
which at least offers the same basic functionality (however, we have  
no intentions of dropping our Jython-based system).

Cheers,
Tobias

Quoting Jeff Allen <ja...@fa...>:

> Tobias:
>
> This looks really good. Congratulations. I have faced the same  
> problem but didn't know about TigerJython.
>
> I'm pleased we played a part. I only wish we could have a had a  
> Python 3 for you.
>
> Jeff Allen
>
> On 12/03/2019 15:45, Tobias Kohn wrote:
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> As I am a research associate at the computer laboratory in  
>> Cambridge, I would also be interested in collaborating on a project  
>> to move Jython forward within an academic setting.
>>
>> /> Also, it's always interesting to hear what people are doing with  
>> Jython, where it provides a unique advantage, both your work and in  
>> Fiji./
>>
>> On the danger of going slightly off topic, may I add that I have  
>> found Jython to be a great and outstandingly helpful tool in my  
>> work, too.  While I was teaching programming in high schools, I  
>> found Python to be a superb language, while IDLE and Python's  
>> standard packages were quite limited and limiting.  Since I was not  
>> allowed to install any software on the computers, but could run a  
>> Java application, I turned to Jython and built an education  
>> programming environment "TigerJython" on top of Jython [1, 2].  My  
>> initial "hack" turned into a PhD thesis and quickly gained large  
>> popularity in Switzerland.  It is by now one of the most frequently  
>> used programming environment in schools, and is being adopted in  
>> other countries as well.
>>
>> Indeed, the easy integration with Java turned out to be an  
>> essential feature and great asset, as it allowed to continue using  
>> libraries formerly designed for Java.  This also led to a  
>> collaboration where we used Jython as a basis for music-based  
>> programming [3].
>>
>> So, yes, Jython is really great work and extremely useful. Thank you all!
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Tobias Kohn
>>
>> [1] http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/
>> [2] https://tobiaskohn.ch/index.php/research/research-tigerjython/
>> [3] https://jythonmusic.me/
>
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> Jython-dev mailing list
> Jyt...@li...https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev