jsbsim-devel — JSBSim development issues

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Fwd: Helicopter

[Thomas <kre...@mo...>]

Hello Simon,

I'm a bit offended by your claim -- CIT: 'there's nothing in it I can't 
do with a propeller'.

Allow me one question: how do you intend to treat the tail-rotor?

Anyway, I'm curious about your results. 'think that the propeller is 
better suited to model mid-size quad-drones and the like.

Kind Regards,

	Thomas

P.S. As for the rotor-model, two pointers for reading:

/br/ 
https://www.elsevier.com/books/bramwells-helicopter-dynamics/bramwell/978-0-08-097404-0

/sh/ Shaugnessy, J. D., Deaux, Thomas N., and Yenni, Kenneth R., 
"Development and Validation of a Piloted Simulation of a Helicopter and 
External Sling Load",  NASA TP-1285, 1979


Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
>    yeh I have, and there's nothing in it I can't do with a propeller,
> and actually there are things in the propeller code that the rotor can't
> do.... so using rotor is a net less...
>
> Simon
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: *Sean McLeod* <se...@se... <mailto:se...@se...>>
> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 at 20:00
> Subject: RE: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
> To: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
> <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>
>
> Hi Simon____
>
> __ __
>
> Have you looked at the FGRotor code to see what helicopter specific
> stuff it models that isn’t modeled by FGPropeller?____
>
> __ __
>
> Cheers____
>
> __ __
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
> <mailto:sim...@go...>>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 5:19 PM
> *To:* Sean McLeod <se...@se... <mailto:se...@se...>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter____
>
> __ __
>
> Hi Sean,____
>
> __ __
>
> I'm not sure about using prop resulting in a lesser quality or that
> rotor offering greater functionality...____
>
> __ __
>
> I remain open minded to the possibilities____
>
> __ __
>
> Simon.____
>
> __ __
>
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 13:08 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...
> <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:____
>
>     Hi Simon____
>
>     ____
>
>     I’m sure you can model a helicopter using FGPropeller etc. as a
>     basis, but I would imagine it would be a 1^st order approximation
>     since there are a number of dynamics that FGPropeller doesn’t model
>     compared to FGRotor, so FGRotor would more easily allow for a higher
>     fidelity model.____
>
>     ____
>
>     Cheers____
>
>     ____
>
>     *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>     <jsb...@li...
>     <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:59 PM
>     *To:* Development issues <jsb...@li...
>     <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>     *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
>     <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter____
>
>     ____
>
>     Hi Sean, ____
>
>     ____
>
>     To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter
>     using the prop code, because I couldn't see why not.____
>
>     ____
>
>     On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...
>     <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:____
>
>         Hi Simon____
>
>         ____
>
>         I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim
>         based helicopter models.____
>
>         ____
>
>         Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.____
>
>         ____
>
>         https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp____
>
>         ____
>
>         He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:____
>
>         ____
>
>         https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s____
>
>         ____
>
>         In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models
>         around when I last looked.____
>
>         ____
>
>         Cheers____
>
>         ____
>
>         *From:* Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...
>         <mailto:bil...@gm...>>
>         *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
>         *To:* 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...
>         <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter____
>
>         ____
>
>         Simon,____
>
>         ____
>
>         I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago,
>         but never implemented it.____
>
>         ____
>
>         Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above
>         it. At 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic
>         tilts that vertical force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the
>         cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of angle) loss of lift,
>         requiring slightly more collective.____
>
>         ____
>
>         The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick.
>         When you release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to
>         neutral, the aircraft will slow to a hover. You basically need a
>         joystick that has a trim lever, or allows you to reestablish the
>         trim point.____
>
>         ____
>
>         Enough to get your brain cells excited?____
>
>         ____
>
>         Bill____
>
>         ____
>
>         *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>         [mailto:jsb...@li...]
>         *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
>         *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...
>         <mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
>         *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
>         <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>         *Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter____
>
>         ____
>
>         Anyone here ever done one ?____
>
>         ____
>
>         Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?____
>
>         ____
>
>         Simon____
>
>         ____
>
>         ____
>
>         ____
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>         Jsb...@li...
>         <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>         _______________________________________________
>         The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>         http://www.JSBSim.org
>         ___________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>

-- 
Thomas Kreitler - Information Retrieval
kre...@mo...
49/30/8413 1702

[Jsbsim-devel] Fwd: Helicopter

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

  yeh I have, and there's nothing in it I can't do with a propeller, and
actually there are things in the propeller code that the rotor can't do....
so using rotor is a net less...

Simon

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Sean McLeod <se...@se...>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 at 20:00
Subject: RE: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
To: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>


Hi Simon



Have you looked at the FGRotor code to see what helicopter specific stuff
it models that isn’t modeled by FGPropeller?



Cheers



*From:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
*Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 5:19 PM
*To:* Sean McLeod <se...@se...>
*Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter



Hi Sean,



I'm not sure about using prop resulting in a lesser quality or that rotor
offering greater functionality...



I remain open minded to the possibilities



Simon.



On Mon, 26 Oct 2020, 13:08 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:

Hi Simon



I’m sure you can model a helicopter using FGPropeller etc. as a basis, but
I would imagine it would be a 1st order approximation since there are a
number of dynamics that FGPropeller doesn’t model compared to FGRotor, so
FGRotor would more easily allow for a higher fidelity model.



Cheers



*From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
jsb...@li...>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:59 PM
*To:* Development issues <jsb...@li...>
*Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
*Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter



Hi Sean,



To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter using the
prop code, because I couldn't see why not.



On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...> wrote:

Hi Simon



I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based
helicopter models.



Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.



https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp



He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:



https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s



In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around when I
last looked.



Cheers



*From:* Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
*To:* 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...>
*Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter



Simon,



I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never
implemented it.



Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50%
collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force
fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of
angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.



The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you
release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will
slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or
allows you to reestablish the trim point.



Enough to get your brain cells excited?



Bill



*From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [
mailto:jsb...@li...
<jsb...@li...>]
*Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
*To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
*Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
*Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter



Anyone here ever done one ?



Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?



Simon







_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Sean M. <se...@se...>]

Hi Simon

I’m sure you can model a helicopter using FGPropeller etc. as a basis, but I would imagine it would be a 1st order approximation since there are a number of dynamics that FGPropeller doesn’t model compared to FGRotor, so FGRotor would more easily allow for a higher fidelity model.

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:59 PM
To: Development issues <jsb...@li...>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

Hi Sean,

To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter using the prop code, because I couldn't see why not.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...<mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
Hi Simon

I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based helicopter models.

Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.

https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp

He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:

https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s

In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around when I last looked.

Cheers

From: Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...<mailto:bil...@gm...>>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
To: 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...<mailto:jsb...@li...>>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

Simon,

I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never implemented it.

Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.

The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.

Enough to get your brain cells excited?

Bill

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:jsb...@li...]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>>
Subject: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

Anyone here ever done one ?

Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?

Simon



_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Erik H. <er...@eh...>]

On 10/26/20 12:15 AM, Ron Jensen wrote:
> I made FlightGear Robinson R-22 model using Thomas Kreitler's FGRotor. Not
> sure if its still available on-line or not. It was flyable with a complete
> set of helicopter controls. E.g. cyclic, collective and pedals.
> 
> The biggest trick to implenting a helicopter is you must consider +/-180
> degrees on alpha and -/+ 90 degrees on beta. The typical airplane model won't
> cut it. Also, FGPropeller assumes an alpha and beta of 0, so you won't see
> anything like autorotation.

It's still available:
https://github.com/NikolaiVChr/Robinson

Erik

-- 
http://www.adalin.com
High performance audio scenegraph and sound simulation.

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Hi Ron,

I don't do a typical plane flight model so I'm ok with the alpha and beta
calcs.

I've not found any problems with auto rotation... The object it would seem
is to spin the prop up using the air rushing through it as the helicopter
loses hight and then at the last second change it's blade angle to brake
the descent.

The alpha beta on the blade isn't an issue .

Regards

Simon

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 23:35 Ron Jensen, <wi...@je...> wrote:

> I made FlightGear Robinson R-22 model using Thomas Kreitler's FGRotor. Not
> sure if its still available on-line or not. It was flyable with a complete
> set of helicopter controls. E.g. cyclic, collective and pedals.
>
> The biggest trick to implenting a helicopter is you must consider +/-180
> degrees on alpha and -/+ 90 degrees on beta. The typical airplane model
> won't
> cut it. Also, FGPropeller assumes an alpha and beta of 0, so you won't see
> anything like autorotation.
>
> Ron
>
> On Sunday 25 October 2020 03:58:34 pm Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
> wrote:
> > Hi Sean,
> >
> > To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter using
> the
> > prop code, because I couldn't see why not.
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...> wrote:
> > > Hi Simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based
> > > helicopter models.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e
> > >86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e
> > >86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around
> when
> > > I last looked.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
> > > *To:* 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Simon,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never
> > > implemented it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At
> > > 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that
> vertical
> > > force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss
> > > (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you
> > > release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft
> > > will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim
> > > lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Enough to get your brain cells excited?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [
> > > mailto:jsb...@li...
> > > <jsb...@li...>]
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
> > > *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> > > *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> > > *Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyone here ever done one ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> > > Jsb...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> > > http://www.JSBSim.org
> > > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Ron J. <wi...@je...>]

I made FlightGear Robinson R-22 model using Thomas Kreitler's FGRotor. Not 
sure if its still available on-line or not. It was flyable with a complete 
set of helicopter controls. E.g. cyclic, collective and pedals.

The biggest trick to implenting a helicopter is you must consider +/-180 
degrees on alpha and -/+ 90 degrees on beta. The typical airplane model won't 
cut it. Also, FGPropeller assumes an alpha and beta of 0, so you won't see 
anything like autorotation.

Ron

On Sunday 25 October 2020 03:58:34 pm Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel 
wrote:
> Hi Sean,
>
> To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter using the
> prop code, because I couldn't see why not.
>
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...> wrote:
> > Hi Simon
> >
> >
> >
> > I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based
> > helicopter models.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e
> >86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp
> >
> >
> >
> > He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e
> >86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s
> >
> >
> >
> > In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around when
> > I last looked.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
> > *To:* 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
> >
> >
> >
> > Simon,
> >
> >
> >
> > I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never
> > implemented it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At
> > 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical
> > force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss
> > (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.
> >
> >
> >
> > The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you
> > release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft
> > will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim
> > lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.
> >
> >
> >
> > Enough to get your brain cells excited?
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [
> > mailto:jsb...@li...
> > <jsb...@li...>]
> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
> > *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> > *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> > *Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone here ever done one ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> > Jsb...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> > _______________________________________________
> > The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> > http://www.JSBSim.org
> > _______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Hi Sean,

To be honest I wanted to try and see if I could make a helicopter using the
prop code, because I couldn't see why not.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:12, Sean McLeod <se...@se...> wrote:

> Hi Simon
>
>
>
> I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based
> helicopter models.
>
>
>
> Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.
>
>
>
>
> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp
>
>
>
> He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:
>
>
>
>
> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s
>
>
>
> In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around when I
> last looked.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
> *To:* 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
>
>
>
> Simon,
>
>
>
> I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never
> implemented it.
>
>
>
> Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50%
> collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force
> fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of
> angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.
>
>
>
> The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you
> release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will
> slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or
> allows you to reestablish the trim point.
>
>
>
> Enough to get your brain cells excited?
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [
> mailto:jsb...@li...
> <jsb...@li...>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
>
>
>
> Anyone here ever done one ?
>
>
>
> Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Sean M. <se...@se...>]

Hi Simon

I’m just getting started again in terms of looking at JSBSim based helicopter models.

Thomas Kreitler improved the FGRotor model between 2010 – 2012.

https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/blob/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/src/models/propulsion/FGRotor.cpp

He also added a fairly detailed helicopter model for the AH1S:

https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/tree/4840a621dafe1ce64970990ddaec3e86a1c7e082/aircraft/ah1s

In general there are very few JSBSim based helicopter models around when I last looked.

Cheers

From: Bill Galbraith <bil...@gm...>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 8:08 PM
To: 'Development issues' <jsb...@li...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

Simon,

I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never implemented it.

Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.

The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.

Enough to get your brain cells excited?

Bill

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:jsb...@li...]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>>
Subject: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

Anyone here ever done one ?

Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?

Simon

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Bill G. <bil...@gm...>]

Simon, et.al. 

 

A little education, specially about the Sikorsky H60 line. Other helicopters are similar. Maybe some of this is known, maybe not.

 

The control system is fully irreversible. The cyclic and collective just over hydraulic valves which move actuators. The trim system provides a centering force when displaced from a set position through some centering springs. Without it, the cyclic and collective just move about willy-nilly (that’s a technical term). For our discussion, let’s assume that in a hover, the cyclic is centered, at 50% fore/aft throw, and at 100 knots, the cyclic has to move forward 10%, to about 40% throw (0% forward, 100% aft). So, Joe Pilot is in a hover. He will probably move the cyclic forward to 30-35% to get the aircraft accelerating forward (which drops the nose, and a bit of altitude can be lost). When Joe reaches 100 knots, he moved the stick a position where the aircraft neither accelerators or decelerates, about 40%. Now, when he establishes a new trim position, he can do this one of two ways: 

 

1.     Move the stick against the force springs, momentary press and release the trim release button. This establishes the new trim position where the stick is at when the trim release button is release. The force is instantly removed, and will remain where it is placed.

2.     Press the trim release button, and move the stick without the centering force. Once the desired position is reached, release the trim release button, and the new trim position is established when the button is release.

 

Now, let’s take this system onto the PC, with a conventional spring-centering joystick (centers at 50%). Hover, not a problem. Accelerate to 100 knots, you’ll have to hold a constant forward joystick. You might be able to implement a ‘trim position’ when you press a button on the joystick, and then move the joystick back to center within one second. When you pressed that button, it records the ‘trim’ position as 10%, and adds that to the stick position, maybe feeding it in over a second, or maybe it feeds it in as the stick is centered, regardless of how long it takes.

 

In your case, since you are using a mouse for a cyclic, that’s not really a problem.

 

I might suggest using a non-linear scaling on the stick, such as a squared-function. That makes the stick less touchy.

 

Good luck. Keep us informed how it is going. Hope everyone else enjoyed the read.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:jsb...@li...] 
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 2:37 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

 

Hi Bill,

 

Thanks for taking.

 

I'm currently using a mouse with a saitek throttle and so haven't ran into this issue.

 

I'll have to give it some thought to how to create a trim cyclic for joystick users, if the workload is considered onerous over a long flight.

 

I chose to use a turbine and prop combination, which I'm really happy with.

 

I'm happy with the flight characteristics after adapting it to have a stabilizing rotation around the lift point.

 

 

Regards

 

Simon.

 

 

 

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 18:08 Bill Galbraith, <bil...@gm... <mailto:bil...@gm...> > wrote:

Simon,

 

I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never implemented it.

 

Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.

 

The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.

 

Enough to get your brain cells excited?

 

Bill

 

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:jsb...@li... <mailto:jsb...@li...> ] 
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li... <mailto:Jsb...@li...> >
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go... <mailto:sim...@go...> >
Subject: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

 

Anyone here ever done one ?

 

Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?

 

Simon

 

 

 

  _____  


 <https://www.avg.com/internet-security> 

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. 
www.avg.com <https://www.avg.com/internet-security>  

 

_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li... <mailto:Jsb...@li...> 
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for taking.

I'm currently using a mouse with a saitek throttle and so haven't ran into
this issue.

I'll have to give it some thought to how to create a trim cyclic for
joystick users, if the workload is considered onerous over a long flight.

I chose to use a turbine and prop combination, which I'm really happy with.

I'm happy with the flight characteristics after adapting it to have a
stabilizing rotation around the lift point.


Regards

Simon.



On Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 18:08 Bill Galbraith, <bil...@gm...> wrote:

> Simon,
>
>
>
> I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never
> implemented it.
>
>
>
> Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50%
> collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force
> fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of
> angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.
>
>
>
> The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you
> release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will
> slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or
> allows you to reestablish the trim point.
>
>
>
> Enough to get your brain cells excited?
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:
> jsb...@li...]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter
>
>
>
> Anyone here ever done one ?
>
>
>
> Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: Image removed by sender. AVG logo]
> <https://www.avg.com/internet-security>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com <https://www.avg.com/internet-security>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Bill G. <bil...@gm...>]

Simon,

 

I had devoted some brain cells towards that idea a while ago, but never implemented it.

 

Imagine a point mass, with a point vertical force located above it. At 50% collective, vertical force equals weight. Cyclic tilts that vertical force fore/aft, left/right. Displacing the cyclic yields a slight loss (sine of angle) loss of lift, requiring slightly more collective.

 

The painful part comes when you try to fly it with a joystick. When you release the joystick, the cyclic returns back to neutral, the aircraft will slow to a hover. You basically need a joystick that has a trim lever, or allows you to reestablish the trim point.

 

Enough to get your brain cells excited?

 

Bill

 

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel [mailto:jsb...@li...] 
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:41 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
Subject: [Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

 

Anyone here ever done one ?

 

Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?

 

Simon

 

 

 

  _____  


 <https://www.avg.com/internet-security> 

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. 
www.avg.com <https://www.avg.com/internet-security>  

[Jsbsim-devel] Helicopter

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Anyone here ever done one ?

Want to talk about it, share knowledge ?

Simon

[Jsbsim-devel] Outerra and jsbsim

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

New glider video from outerra using jsbsim.... Could do with jsbsim
internal turbulence being involved, but needs must without further help.

https://youtu.be/ZxzPj8TCCLA

Regards

Simon.

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

total-wind-down-fps remains zero.... Can I ask how I get this functioning ?

Simon



On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 20:46 Simon Julie Morley, <sim...@go...>
wrote:

> It works fine in FG, struggling to get it working in Outerra....
>
> Total wind remains zero.... Even if we adjust the down wind....
>
> How can we be sure it's turned on ?
>
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 20:12 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>
>> Simon you mention:
>>
>>
>>
>> *no luck getting any turbulent effects....*
>>
>>
>>
>> But in your video when you switched on turbulence you did see turbulence
>> effects. But it seemed you couldn’t see the effect of the wind updraft?
>>
>>
>>
>> From a recent comment Bertrand made on a github issue -
>> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/issues/272
>>
>>
>>
>> “Be aware that turbulence is supposed to be added to a global wind”
>>
>>
>>
>> So, depending on the magnitude of the turbulence relative to your updraft
>> it may be difficult to see both independently?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Dave Culp <dav...@co...>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:32 PM
>> *To:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>> jsb...@li...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>
>>
>> Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence?  Both?  Is
>> FlightGear involved in any way here?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>
>> Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're having
>> no luck getting any turbulent effects....
>>
>>
>>
>> Any ideas ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, <
>> sim...@go...> wrote:
>>
>> Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into
>> JSBsim...
>>
>>
>>
>> Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still
>> being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>> Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some
>> semi-random values to the wind vector.
>>
>>
>>
>> So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply
>> set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>> jsb...@li...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>
>>
>> Hopefully this video my explain better
>>
>>
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is
>> some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>>
>>
>>
>>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
>> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
>> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
>> ::GetWindspeed,
>>
>>                                                         &FGWinds
>> ::SetWindspeed);
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>> jsb...@li...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
>> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>>
>> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>>
>> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
>> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
>> of say 3ft sec
>>
>>
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>
>> Jsb...@li...
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>> Jsb...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>> Jsb...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>
>> Jsb...@li...
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>> Jsb...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

It works fine in FG, struggling to get it working in Outerra....

Total wind remains zero.... Even if we adjust the down wind....

How can we be sure it's turned on ?

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 20:12 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:

> Simon you mention:
>
>
>
> *no luck getting any turbulent effects....*
>
>
>
> But in your video when you switched on turbulence you did see turbulence
> effects. But it seemed you couldn’t see the effect of the wind updraft?
>
>
>
> From a recent comment Bertrand made on a github issue -
> https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/issues/272
>
>
>
> “Be aware that turbulence is supposed to be added to a global wind”
>
>
>
> So, depending on the magnitude of the turbulence relative to your updraft
> it may be difficult to see both independently?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Dave Culp <dav...@co...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:32 PM
> *To:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence?  Both?  Is FlightGear
> involved in any way here?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're having no
> luck getting any turbulent effects....
>
>
>
> Any ideas ?
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, <
> sim...@go...> wrote:
>
> Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into
> JSBsim...
>
>
>
> Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still
> being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.
>
>
>
> I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some
> semi-random values to the wind vector.
>
>
>
> So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply
> set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Hopefully this video my explain better
>
>
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon
>
>
>
> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is
> some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>
>
>
>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
> ::GetWindspeed,
>
>                                                         &FGWinds
> ::SetWindspeed);
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>
> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>
> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>
>
>
> -- Dave
>
>
>
> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
>
>
> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
> of say 3ft sec
>
>
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Simon.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>
> Jsb...@li...
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>
> http://www.JSBSim.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>
> Jsb...@li...
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>
> http://www.JSBSim.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Sean M. <se...@se...>]

Simon you mention:

no luck getting any turbulent effects....

But in your video when you switched on turbulence you did see turbulence effects. But it seemed you couldn’t see the effect of the wind updraft?

From a recent comment Bertrand made on a github issue - https://github.com/JSBSim-Team/jsbsim/issues/272

“Be aware that turbulence is supposed to be added to a global wind”

So, depending on the magnitude of the turbulence relative to your updraft it may be difficult to see both independently?

Cheers

From: Dave Culp <dav...@co...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 7:32 PM
To: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift


Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence?  Both?  Is FlightGear involved in any way here?

Dave


On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're having no luck getting any turbulent effects....

Any ideas ?

Simon

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>> wrote:
Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into JSBsim...

Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.

I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...<mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
Hi

Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some semi-random values to the wind vector.

So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...<mailto:jsb...@li...>>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

Hopefully this video my explain better

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7

Regards

Simon

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...<mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
Hi Simon

Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is some other code you have that is resetting the wind?

  // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi, &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds::GetWindspeed,
                                                        &FGWinds::SetWindspeed);

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...<mailto:jsb...@li...>>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...<mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:

atmosphere/wind-down-fps

I believe an updraft would be a negative value.



-- Dave


On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
Hi guys,

I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift of say 3ft sec

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Simon.


_______________________________________________

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Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>

https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel

_______________________________________________

The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project

http://www.JSBSim.org

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________

Jsbsim-devel mailing list

Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>

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_______________________________________________

The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project

http://www.JSBSim.org

_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Dave C. <dav...@co...>]

In JSBSim::FGWinds the total air movement is calculated thus:

   vTotalWindNED = vWindNED + vGustNED + vCosineGust + vTurbulenceNED;

This allows wind and turbulence to be calculated independently. However, 
one can still overwrite these using the property system. If you try to 
set the updraft and it returns to zero that means some process is 
overwriting the value.  That process needs to be found and disabled (or 
at least modified to work together with your updraft setting).

-- Dave


On 4/15/20 11:27 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
> Can you have one without the other ?
>
> I'm after uplift if that's the correct term.
>
> And no flight gear is not involved in this... Does that matter ?
>
> Simon
>
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 18:32 Dave Culp, <dav...@co... 
> <mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:
>
>     Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence? Both?  Is
>     FlightGear involved in any way here?
>
>
>     Dave
>
>
>     On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>     Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're
>>     having no luck getting any turbulent effects....
>>
>>     Any ideas ?
>>
>>     Simon
>>
>>     On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley,
>>     <sim...@go...
>>     <mailto:sim...@go...>> wrote:
>>
>>         Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws
>>         into JSBsim...
>>
>>         Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property
>>         is still being updated to near enough zero by what looks to
>>         be FG ridge lift code.
>>
>>         I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>>
>>         On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...
>>         <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi
>>
>>             Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is
>>             going to add some semi-random values to the wind vector.
>>
>>             So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence,
>>             but rather simply set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you
>>             don’t see the expected result?
>>
>>             Cheers
>>
>>             *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>>             <jsb...@li...
>>             <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>>             *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
>>             *To:* Development issues
>>             <Jsb...@li...
>>             <mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
>>             *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
>>             <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>>             *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>             Hopefully this video my explain better
>>
>>             https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>>
>>             Regards
>>
>>             Simon
>>
>>             On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod,
>>             <se...@se... <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
>>
>>                 Hi Simon
>>
>>                 Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source
>>                 code. Maybe there is some other code you have that is
>>                 resetting the wind?
>>
>>                 // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties
>>                 (local navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>>
>>                 PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this,
>>                 &FGWinds::GetWindPsi, &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>>
>>                 PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps",
>>                 this, eNorth, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                 (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>>
>>                 PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",
>>                 this, eEast, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                 (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>>
>>                 PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",
>>                 this, eDown, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                             (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>>
>>                 PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this,
>>                 &FGWinds::GetWindspeed,
>>
>>                 &FGWinds::SetWindspeed);
>>
>>                 Cheers
>>
>>                 *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>>                 <jsb...@li...
>>                 <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>>                 *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
>>                 *To:* Development issues
>>                 <Jsb...@li...
>>                 <mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
>>                 *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley
>>                 <sim...@go...
>>                 <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>>                 *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>                 Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated
>>                 value..... So you can't change this property, as it's
>>                 gone as quick as you set it.
>>
>>                 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp,
>>                 <dav...@co... <mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:
>>
>>                     atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>>
>>                     I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>>
>>                     -- Dave
>>
>>                     On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via
>>                     Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>
>>                         Hi guys,
>>
>>                         I believe what I'm looking to adjust is
>>                         within the atmosphere properties but I don't
>>                         know which one I'd adjust to generate a
>>                         constant thermal lift of say 3ft sec
>>
>>                         Any help would be appreciated
>>
>>                         Regards
>>
>>                         Simon.
>>
>>                         _______________________________________________
>>
>>                         Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>
>>                         Jsb...@li...  <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>>
>>                         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>
>>                         _______________________________________________
>>
>>                         The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>
>>                         http://www.JSBSim.org
>>
>>                         _______________________________________________
>>
>>                           
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>                     Jsb...@li...
>>                     <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>>                     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>                     http://www.JSBSim.org
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>                 Jsb...@li...
>>                 <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>>                 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>                 http://www.JSBSim.org
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>     Jsb...@li...  <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>     http://www.JSBSim.org
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>     Jsb...@li...
>     <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>     _______________________________________________
>     The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>     http://www.JSBSim.org
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Can you have one without the other ?

I'm after uplift if that's the correct term.

And no flight gear is not involved in this... Does that matter ?

Simon

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 18:32 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:

> Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence?  Both?  Is FlightGear
> involved in any way here?
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're having no
> luck getting any turbulent effects....
>
> Any ideas ?
>
> Simon
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, <
> sim...@go...> wrote:
>
>> Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into
>> JSBsim...
>>
>> Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still
>> being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.
>>
>> I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some
>>> semi-random values to the wind vector.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather
>>> simply set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>>> jsb...@li...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
>>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hopefully this video my explain better
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there
>>> is some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
>>> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>>>
>>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
>>> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>>>
>>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
>>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>>
>>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>>> ::SetWindNED);
>>>
>>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
>>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>>
>>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>>> ::SetWindNED);
>>>
>>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
>>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>>
>>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>>> ::SetWindNED);
>>>
>>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
>>> ::GetWindspeed,
>>>
>>>                                                         &FGWinds
>>> ::SetWindspeed);
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>>> jsb...@li...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
>>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
>>> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>>>
>>> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>>>
>>> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
>>> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
>>> of say 3ft sec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any help would be appreciated
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>>
>>> Jsb...@li...
>>>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>>
>>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>> Jsb...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>> Jsb...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing lis...@li...https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model projecthttp://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Dave C. <dav...@co...>]

Now I'm confused.  Do you want uplift or turbulence?  Both?  Is 
FlightGear involved in any way here?


Dave


On 4/15/20 4:14 AM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
> Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're 
> having no luck getting any turbulent effects....
>
> Any ideas ?
>
> Simon
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, 
> <sim...@go... <mailto:sim...@go...>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into
>     JSBsim...
>
>     Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is
>     still being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG
>     ridge lift code.
>
>     I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>
>     On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...
>     <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
>
>         Hi
>
>         Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to
>         add some semi-random values to the wind vector.
>
>         So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but
>         rather simply set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see
>         the expected result?
>
>         Cheers
>
>         *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>         <jsb...@li...
>         <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>         *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
>         *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...
>         <mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
>         *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
>         <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>         Hopefully this video my explain better
>
>         https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>
>         Regards
>
>         Simon
>
>         On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...
>         <mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
>
>             Hi Simon
>
>             Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code.
>             Maybe there is some other code you have that is resetting
>             the wind?
>
>             // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
>             navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>
>             PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this,
>             &FGWinds::GetWindPsi, &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>
>             PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this,
>             eNorth, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>             (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>
>             PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps", this,
>             eEast, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>             (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>
>             PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps", this,
>             eDown, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                         (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
>
>             PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this,
>             &FGWinds::GetWindspeed,
>
>             &FGWinds::SetWindspeed);
>
>             Cheers
>
>             *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel
>             <jsb...@li...
>             <mailto:jsb...@li...>>
>             *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
>             *To:* Development issues
>             <Jsb...@li...
>             <mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
>             *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...
>             <mailto:sim...@go...>>
>             *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>             Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value.....
>             So you can't change this property, as it's gone as quick
>             as you set it.
>
>             On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...
>             <mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:
>
>                 atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>
>                 I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>
>                 -- Dave
>
>                 On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via
>                 Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
>                     Hi guys,
>
>                     I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the
>                     atmosphere properties but I don't know which one
>                     I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift of
>                     say 3ft sec
>
>                     Any help would be appreciated
>
>                     Regards
>
>                     Simon.
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                     Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>
>                     Jsb...@li...  <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>
>                     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                     The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>
>                     http://www.JSBSim.org
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                       
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>                 Jsb...@li...
>                 <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>                 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>                 http://www.JSBSim.org
>                 _______________________________________________
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>             Jsb...@li...
>             <mailto:Jsb...@li...>
>             https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>             _______________________________________________
>             The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>             http://www.JSBSim.org
>             _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Guys we're still trying to implement this into Outerra and we're having no
luck getting any turbulent effects....

Any ideas ?

Simon

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 13:30 Simon Julie Morley, <sim...@go...>
wrote:

> Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into
> JSBsim...
>
> Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still
> being updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.
>
> I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>> Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some
>> semi-random values to the wind vector.
>>
>>
>>
>> So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply
>> set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>> jsb...@li...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>
>>
>> Hopefully this video my explain better
>>
>>
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is
>> some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>>
>>
>>
>>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
>> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
>> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
>> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>>
>>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
>> ::SetWindNED);
>>
>>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
>> ::GetWindspeed,
>>
>>                                                         &FGWinds
>> ::SetWindspeed);
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
>> jsb...@li...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
>> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
>> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
>> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>>
>> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>>
>> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
>> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
>> of say 3ft sec
>>
>>
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>>
>> Jsb...@li...
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>>
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>> Jsb...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>> Jsb...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>> http://www.JSBSim.org
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Ah I think this is another one of those issues that FG throws into JSBsim...

Even if I turn turbulence to none the wind-down-fps property is still being
updated to near enough zero by what looks to be FG ridge lift code.

I wonder if I can turn FG ridge lift off..

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 12:53 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
> Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some
> semi-random values to the wind vector.
>
>
>
> So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply
> set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Hopefully this video my explain better
>
>
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon
>
>
>
> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is
> some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>
>
>
>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
> ::GetWindspeed,
>
>                                                         &FGWinds
> ::SetWindspeed);
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>
> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>
> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>
>
>
> -- Dave
>
>
>
> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
>
>
> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
> of say 3ft sec
>
>
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Simon.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>
> Jsb...@li...
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>
> http://www.JSBSim.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Sean M. <se...@se...>]

Hi

Okay so in the video you enable turbulence, which is going to add some semi-random values to the wind vector.

So can you confirm that if you don’t enable turbulence, but rather simply set atmosphere/wind-down-fps that you don’t see the expected result?

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:01 PM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

Hopefully this video my explain better

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7

Regards

Simon

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...<mailto:se...@se...>> wrote:
Hi Simon

Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is some other code you have that is resetting the wind?

  // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi, &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds::GetWindspeed,
                                                        &FGWinds::SetWindspeed);

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...<mailto:jsb...@li...>>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...<mailto:sim...@go...>>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...<mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:

atmosphere/wind-down-fps

I believe an updraft would be a negative value.



-- Dave


On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
Hi guys,

I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift of say 3ft sec

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Simon.


_______________________________________________

Jsbsim-devel mailing list

Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>

https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel

_______________________________________________

The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project

http://www.JSBSim.org

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Hopefully this video my explain better

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GqTXFuZ6NZsJ4zRD7

Regards

Simon

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 11:35 Sean McLeod, <se...@se...> wrote:

> Hi Simon
>
>
>
> Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is
> some other code you have that is resetting the wind?
>
>
>
>   // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local
> navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi,
> &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&
> FGWinds::GetWindNED,
>
>                                                           (PMFd)&FGWinds
> ::SetWindNED);
>
>   PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds
> ::GetWindspeed,
>
>                                                         &FGWinds
> ::SetWindspeed);
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *From:* Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <
> jsb...@li...>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
> *To:* Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
> *Cc:* Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
> *Subject:* Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift
>
>
>
> Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
> change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:
>
> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>
> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>
>
>
> -- Dave
>
>
>
> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
>
>
> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
> of say 3ft sec
>
>
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Simon.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
>
> Jsb...@li...
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
>
> http://www.JSBSim.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Sean M. <se...@se...>]

Hi Simon

Shouldn’t be according to the comments in the source code. Maybe there is some other code you have that is resetting the wind?

  // User-specified steady, constant, wind properties (local navigational/geographic frame: N-E-D)
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/psiw-rad", this, &FGWinds::GetWindPsi, &FGWinds::SetWindPsi);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-north-fps", this, eNorth, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-east-fps",  this, eEast, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-down-fps",  this, eDown, (PMF)&FGWinds::GetWindNED,
                                                          (PMFd)&FGWinds::SetWindNED);
  PropertyManager->Tie("atmosphere/wind-mag-fps", this, &FGWinds::GetWindspeed,
                                                        &FGWinds::SetWindspeed);

Cheers

From: Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel <jsb...@li...>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:57 AM
To: Development issues <Jsb...@li...>
Cc: Simon Julie Morley <sim...@go...>
Subject: Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...<mailto:dav...@co...>> wrote:

atmosphere/wind-down-fps

I believe an updraft would be a negative value.



-- Dave


On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
Hi guys,

I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift of say 3ft sec

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Simon.


_______________________________________________

Jsbsim-devel mailing list

Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>

https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel

_______________________________________________

The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project

http://www.JSBSim.org

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________
Jsbsim-devel mailing list
Jsb...@li...<mailto:Jsb...@li...>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
_______________________________________________
The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
http://www.JSBSim.org
_______________________________________________

Re: [Jsbsim-devel] Thermal street lift

[Simon J. M. <sim...@go...>]

Problem is that seems to be a JSBsim calculated value..... So you can't
change this property, as it's gone as quick as you set it.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 06:45 Dave Culp, <dav...@co...> wrote:

> atmosphere/wind-down-fps
>
> I believe an updraft would be a negative value.
>
>
> -- Dave
>
>
> On 4/12/20 10:28 PM, Simon Julie Morley via Jsbsim-devel wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I believe what I'm looking to adjust is within the atmosphere properties
> but I don't know which one I'd adjust to generate a constant thermal lift
> of say 3ft sec
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
> Regards
>
> Simon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing lis...@li...https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model projecthttp://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jsbsim-devel mailing list
> Jsb...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jsbsim-devel
> _______________________________________________
> The JSBSim Flight Dynamics Model project
> http://www.JSBSim.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>