Re: [jdee-devel] [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics
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Re: [jdee-devel] [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics
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From: Paul L. <la...@ma...> - 2008-12-10 18:23:10
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Cross mailing to the JDEE group. Paul Reavis writes: > I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether > the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, > or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc... > > I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to > become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for > Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, > training, etc. > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote: > > > Mine as well. I use BeanShell in a production environment for years > > and am also worried about its "support". > > Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by > > volunteers, > > but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me. > > I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit > > unsettling. > > I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have > > contibuted to it in the past. > > But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* > > differ in the future. > > I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply > > stability and possible extreme bug fixes. > > But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job. But also I > > dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:) > > > > I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking > > the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them > > with reflection. The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial > > job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better > > architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how > > good that is. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary Furash > > To: Bea...@li... > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM > > Subject: Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics > > > > Your experience. matches my own. Groovy became its own language. > > Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language. We used it > > extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully. Pat did a > > great job and then had to move on for whatever reason. > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis <pa...@pa...> > > wrote: > > > > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote: > > > > > Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical > > functionality? > > > Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained. > > > > We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting > > language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with > > accompanying application server). > > > > I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time. > > We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting > > language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on > > BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less > > syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to > > and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate > > to "real" Java development without too much change shock. > > > > Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have > > no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go > > back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close > > enough to make it easy to screw up. > > > > I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for > > awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from > > Java so I lost interest. > > > > I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues. > > It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had > > to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to > > improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts > > that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice > > to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's > > not perfect. > > > > Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in; > > I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison, > > jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other > > implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if > > you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a > > very Java-like scripting language. > > > > Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt > > the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with > > those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time, > > however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very > > aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be: > > 1) stability > > 2) performance > > 3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible > > > > I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like > > Grails, etc. > > > > And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was > > silly. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, > > Nevada. > > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to > > help > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Beanshell-developers mailing list > > Bea...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers > > > > > > > > -- > > Gary Furash, 602-561-9057, fu...@al... > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, > > Nevada. > > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to > > help > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Beanshell-developers mailing list > > Bea...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, > > Nevada. > > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to > > help > > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________ > > Beanshell-developers mailing list > > Bea...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers > > <html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I guess the fundamental question I must answer for myself is whether the only thing holding BeanShell back is lack of active development, or whether it's a deadend compared to Jython, JRuby, etc...<div><br></div><div>I'm willing to provide the development or hosting but if it's going to become a backwater I'd probably still want to move. A big bonus for Jython and JRuby is larger support network - books, IDE integration, training, etc. </div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David A. Lee wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2">Mine as well. I use BeanShell in a production environment for years and am also worried about its "support".</font></div><div><font size="2">Not that I'm expecting free labor, or even active development by volunteers,</font></div><div><font size="2">but it is worrisome that known bugs or future bugs may bite me.</font></div><div><font size="2">I do have the source so I could fix things myself, but its a bit unsettling.</font></div><div><font size="2">I like the idea of the beanshell2 fork on google, and have contibuted to it in the past.</font></div><div><font size="2">But the goals of that branch differ from mine ... or atleast *may* differ in the future.</font></div><div><font size="2">I dont want enhancements, or refactoring of the code, simply stability and possible extreme bug fixes.</font></div><div><font size="2">But again, I'm not expecting someone else to do my job. But also I dont want my job to be bug fixing an existing library either !:)</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2">I'm considering shifting over to "pure java" by natively invoking the javac compiler, loading the .class files and executing them</font></div><div><font size="2">with reflection. The syntax wont be as nice, and its a non-trivial job to implement this, but in the long run it might be a better</font></div><div><font size="2">architecture then relying on an 'abandoned' platform no matter how good that is.</font></div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><div><font size="2"></font> </div><blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="fur...@gm..." href="mailto:fur...@gm...">Gary Furash</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="Bea...@li..." href="mailto:Bea...@li...">Bea...@li...</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:53 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Beanshell-dev] Status of project and adding 1.5 generics</div><div><br></div>Your experience. matches my own. Groovy became its own language. Beanshell as really an ideal scripting language. We used it extensively at my old shop and it held up beautifully. Pat did a great job and then had to move on for whatever reason.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Paul Reavis<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pa...@pa...">pa...@pa...</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left: 1ex; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; "><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:42 PM, Paul Landes wrote:<br><br>> Is there anyone attached to beanshell for JDE critical functionality?<br>> Again, I'm a huge fan of it, but not if it isn't maintained.<br><br></div>We use it extensively at Partner Software. It's the primary scripting<br>language for our platform (a sort of gis viewer on steroids with<br>accompanying application server).<br><br>I have been concerned about beanshell's lack of support for some time.<br>We originally used Jython (back when it was the only scripting<br>language for Java), then played with Groovy, and finally settled on<br>BeanShell. My primary requirement was that it be more or less<br>syntactically identical to Java, so that I could easily port code to<br>and from Java, and so that people starting in scripting could migrate<br>to "real" Java development without too much change shock.<br><br>Jython was adrift for awhile but now seems actively maintained. I have<br>no problem with Jython or Python per se but I find it difficult to go<br>back and forth between it and Java - they are syntactically close<br>enough to make it easy to screw up.<br><br>I liked Groovy initially but it started wandering off weirdly for<br>awhile, then they made the decision to make it very different from<br>Java so I lost interest.<br><br>I have cracked open the BeanShell code and fixed some of the issues.<br>It's not terribly well written and has some modularity issues; I had<br>to hack in some support for a sort of compile-once-run-often model to<br>improve performance - our system tends to have lots of small scripts<br>that get executed often. And as others have mentioned it would be nice<br>to get 1.5 and 1.6 features in. I did add vararg support though it's<br>not perfect.<br><br>Nowadays there are any number of scripting languages one can code in;<br>I've made the support in our platform modular so it supports bison,<br>jython, jruby, beanshell, stringtemplate and pretty much any other<br>implementation of the Java scripting framework or even custom ones if<br>you can implement a simple interface. But I still like the idea of a<br>very Java-like scripting language.<br><br>Considering our investment in it so far, I would be willing to adopt<br>the project and work on getting a new version out, especially with<br>those fixes I feel need to be in there. I don't have tons of time,<br>however, and I can't guarantee that I would push the code very<br>aggressively. By and large it works well for us. My goals would be:<br>1) stability<br>2) performance<br>3) adherence to Java syntax wherever possible<br><br>I am not at all interested in custom syntax, extension frameworks like<br>Grails, etc.<br><br>And with all due respect to Pat, I've always thought the name was silly.<br><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/" target="_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bea...@li...">Bea...@li...</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers" target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Gary Furash, 602-561-9057,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fu...@al...">fu...@al...</a><br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bea...@li...">Bea...@li...</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></blockquote>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada.<br>The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help<br>pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at<br><a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________">http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________</a><br>Beanshell-developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Bea...@li...">Bea...@li...</a><br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. > The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help > pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/_______________________________________________ > Beanshell-developers mailing list > Bea...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/beanshell-developers -- Paul Landes la...@ma... |