From: David J. <dav...@di...> - 2003-01-24 20:56:03
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On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Matt Munz wrote: > this one didn't make it either... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Munz > Sent: Fri 1/24/2003 12:18 PM > To: jbo...@li... > Cc: > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] [ jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master=20 > Configuration Service > =09 > =09 > David, > =09 > If you will, take a step back with me. Think JMX and not=20 > JBoss-JMX. You are writing a tool to do generic operations on MBeans.=20= > This is the purpose of JMX in the first place. Your tool encounters=20= > a RW attribute. What assumptions can be made, reasonably? > =09 > Here are my assumptions: > =09 > 1. get the value of the attribute and store it in an object. = Do=20 > not modify the object. Set the value of the attribute to the object. =20= > No error will occur. > 2. set the attribute to a given value that is not equivalent = to the=20 > current value. The behavior / state of the MBean will change in a=20 > meaningful way. > =09 > Does the JMX spec enforce these? Perhaps not. Is it = nevertheless=20 > reasonable to expect this behavior? I think so. Neither of these=20 > assumptions are upheld, however, in the current use of MBeans in > = JBoss. > =09 > I realize that re-writing mbeans might cause pain for the = project. =20 > I'm not suggesting that it should even be done, necessarily, at least=20= > not right away. I am, however, trying to reconcile the notion of a RW=20= > attribute where writing the value has no effect. Can this be=20 > explained simply? > =09 > BTW, I don't see how the lifecycle is related to this = particular=20 > issue. Perhaps you could explain this in more depth? In all the mbeans I have written and seen in jboss, aside from=20 egregious bugs, if setting an attribute doesn't have an immediate=20 effect, it does have the desired effect if you run through the service=20= lifecycle (usually stop, start, occasionally stop, destroy, create,=20 start). My view is that mbeans in jboss can take advantage of the=20 service lifecycle. If you don't want to, make all your attribute=20 changes have their effects immediately. All our mbeans are pretty much=20= jboss specific and most heavily use the service lifecycle. They just=20 won't run without it. I still think it is a really convenient=20 extension to vanilla jmx and don't see why we should replace it. david jencks > =09 > - Matt > =09 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Jencks [mailto:dav...@di...] > Sent: Fri 1/24/2003 11:44 AM > To: jbo...@li... > Cc: > Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] [ jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master=20 > Configuration Service > =09 > =09 > > > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 11:07 AM, Matt Munz = wrote: > =09 > > Sacha, > > > > I follow you fine. The RW attributes you describe = should be RO. > > Another mechanism should be used to designate a = default value. =20 > This > > (mis)use of the MBean interface results in an = inconsistent view of=20 > the > > server configuration capabilities. It may be = convenient to=20 > describe a > > "write-once at a very-specific time" attribute as RW, = but this is > > fitting a round peg in a square hole (it may fit, but = it rattles > > around a lot and could break as a result). > =09 > I think our current lifecycle based approach is quite = workable as=20 > long > as you use it as described in my previous post. > =09 > As I understand it you are suggesting replacing the = jboss lifecycle > idea with the following: > =09 > 1. All attributes that currently require lifecycle state = changes=20 > should > be made read only and set in the mbean constructor. > =09 > 2. There should be some easy to use way to recreate an = mbean with the > same object name, some unchanged attributes, but new = constructor > arguments, at least as easy as the current = "stop-change-start" > technique. > =09 > 3. No lifecycle methods. > =09 > This might work, I haven't thought of any fatal problems = with it. > =09 > +: Currently most of our mbeans are probably = insufficiently > synchronized. By setting all arguments in the = constructor, such > problems could perhaps be reduced. > =09 > -: This would require rewriting nearly every jboss = mbean. > =09 > I'd like to see more advantages before undertaking such = an enormous > project. > =09 > david jencks > =09 > =09 > =09 > =09 > > > > What you need is an Object-creation descriptor that = says "pass=20 > these > > arguments to the constructor of object X". Then the = value will be=20 > set > > *before* the object is loaded into the MBean server, = and there is=20 > no > > need to name any attributes RW spuriously. > > > > I think that it is possible that the XMBean = descriptor has=20 > something > > like this -- perhaps this is the best option. > > > > The take-home message here is that MBean Persistence = is a > > cross-cutting concern. As such, I expect it to pull = some skeletons > > out of the closet re: MBeans with inconsistent = interfaces. > > > > - Matt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: = jbo...@li... on=20 > behalf of > > Sacha Labourey > > Sent: Fri 1/24/2003 10:30 AM > > To: jbo...@li... > > Cc: > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] [ jboss-Change = Notes-672538 ] Master > > Configuration Service > > > > > > Not exatly. > > > > Take a look at the Naming Service MBean for = example. It has=20 > a Port > > and IPAddress RW attribute for example because when = the MBean is > > started the following occurs: > > - an instance of the Naming Service class is = created (new=20 > blabla()) > > - the attribute values found in = jboss-service.xml for this=20 > mbean are > > assigned to the RW attributes of the Naming Service = MBean > > - the service controller invokes create and = then start on=20 > the MBean > > instance > > - inside the create/start methods, the = Port/IPAddress=20 > attribute > > values are used to connect to the appropriate port > > > > Once this is done, changing the Port RW = attribute will have=20 > *no* > > effect i.e. the naming service will not unbind/rebind = with a new > > address/port. For this, you must stop the service, = change the=20 > values > > and restart it. Do you follow me? > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > sacha > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Matt Munz > > = [mailto:jbo...@li...]De la part de > > Matt Munz > > Envoy=E9 : vendredi, 24 janvier 2003 = 15:59 > > =C0 : = jbo...@li... > > Objet : RE: [JBoss-dev] [ jboss-Change = Notes-672538=20 > ] Master > > Configuration Service > > > > > > Sacha, > > > > I don't really understand. What good = is a RW=20 > attribute if > > changing it has no effect? If this is really the = case, then I=20 > think a > > lot of those RW attributes should be changed to RO. = The whole=20 > idea of > > JMX is Management. The interface means something, = right? > > > > - Matt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From:=20 > jbo...@li... on behalf of > > Sacha Labourey > > Sent: Fri 1/24/2003 9:45 AM > > To: = jbo...@li... > > Cc: > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] [ = jboss-Change=20 > Notes-672538 ] Master > > Configuration Service > > > > > > Oh, no, nothing wrong at all. It = is just=20 > that while I can easily > > see an advantage to take a snapshot of a server config = for future > > reference or analysis, re-loading a previous seems as = hazardous to=20 > me > > because the configuration should really be applied = when the mbeans=20 > are > > created, not afterwards because many settings would = then have no > > effects at all (such as port numbers, etc.) > > > > Thank you. cheers, > > > > > > Sacha > > > > -----Message = d'origine----- > > De : Matt Munz > > = [mailto:jbo...@li...]De la part de > > Matt Munz > > Envoy=E9 : vendredi, 24 = janvier 2003=20 > 15:35 > > =C0 :=20 > jbo...@li... > > Objet : RE: [JBoss-dev] = [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > Configuration Service > > > > > > Sacha, > > > > No. Nothing fancy = going on here. =20 > Just a quick one-off > > proof-of-concept deal. What it does is make = text-file-based mbean > > persistence available today, in a format perhaps more = amenable to=20 > vi > > hackers. > > > > It's pretty simple to = use -- why=20 > don't you just drop it in > > deploy and try it out... > > > > Basically, it takes = and loads=20 > snapshots. Simple and useable. I > > suppose it could be modified to do other things... > > > > What is wrong with the=20= > jboss-service.xml files? I'm curious -- > > What are you getting at? > > > > - Matt > > > > -----Original = Message----- > > From: Sacha = Labourey=20 > [mailto:Sac...@ml...] > > Sent: Fri = 1/24/2003 8:00 AM > > To:=20 > jbo...@li... > > Cc: > > Subject: RE: = [JBoss-dev] [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > Configuration Service > > > > > > > > Can it be used = at server=20 > startup instead of the > > jboss-service.xml, etc. > > files? i.e. can = it create=20 > all Mbeans and apply all attributes > > value at > > runtime or can = he "only"=20 > capture an instant snapshot of the > > current values? > > > > > -----Message = d'origine----- > > > De :=20 > jbo...@li... > > >=20 > [mailto:jbo...@li...]De la > > part de Matt > > > Munz > > > Envoy=E9 : = mercredi, 22=20 > janvier 2003 19:39 > > > =C0 :=20 > jbo...@li... > > > Objet : RE: = [JBoss-dev] [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > > Configuration = Service > > > > > > > > > BTW, I realize = that the=20 > name "Master Configuration Service" may > > > be misleading. = It only=20 > configures the JMX RW attributes, and > > > isn't really = intended as a=20 > fundamental architectural component, > > > but rather as = an optional=20 > tool and a POC for the flexibility of > > JMX. > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > -----Original = Message----- > > > From: Matt = Munz > > > Sent: = Wednesday, January=20 > 22, 2003 1:14 PM > > > To:=20 > jbo...@li... > > > Subject: RE: = [JBoss-dev] [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > > Configuration = Service > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > I read the = forum, and=20 > I'm not sure how this relates to MBean > > > Persistence. = Your=20 > examples seem to be AOP-specific. Could you > > > give an = example of what=20 > the integration of this stuff with JMX > > > would be like = (if that is=20 > what you intend)? > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > -----Original = Message----- > > > From: Bill = Burke=20 > [mailto:bi...@jb...] > > > Sent: = Wednesday, January=20 > 22, 2003 12:13 PM > > > To:=20 > jbo...@li... > > > Subject: RE: = [JBoss-dev] [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > > Configuration = Service > > > > > > > > > I am doing = some things=20 > around MetaData and centralized > > configuration and > > > configuration = chains in=20 > AOP that I'd like to merge with the > > rest of JBoss. > > > Please see the = topic=20 > configuration and metadata in the AOP > > forum. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > = -----Original=20 > Message----- > > > > From:=20 > jbo...@li... > > > >=20 > [mailto:jbo...@li...]On > > Behalf Of Matt > > > > Munz > > > > Sent: = Wednesday, January=20 > 22, 2003 11:47 AM > > > > To:=20 > jbo...@li... > > > > Subject: RE: = [JBoss-dev]=20 > [ jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > > > = Configuration Service > > > > > > > > > > > > Dain, > > > > > > > > I put this = together=20 > with your use cases in mind. If > > possible, > > > > check it = out, and let me=20 > know what you think. > > > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > = -----Original=20 > Message----- > > > > From: = SourceForge.net=20 > [mailto:no...@so...] > > > > Sent: = Wednesday, January=20 > 22, 2003 11:29 AM > > > > To:=20 > no...@so... > > > > Subject: = [JBoss-dev] [=20 > jboss-Change Notes-672538 ] Master > > Configuration > > > > Service > > > > > > > > > > > > Change Notes = item=20 > #672538, was opened at 2003-01-22 11:28 > > > > You can = respond by=20 > visiting: > > > > > > = https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=3Ddetail&atid=3D381174&aid=3D67253 > > > > = 8&group_id=3D22866 > > > > > > > > Category: = None > > > > Group: None > > > > Status: Open > > > > Priority: 5 > > > > Submitted = By: Matthew=20 > Munz (mattmunz) > > > > Assigned to:=20= > Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) > > > > Summary: = Master=20 > Configuration Service > > > > > > > > Initial = Comment: > > > > A Service = which writes=20 > and reads all of the JMX RW > > > > attributes = to a single=20 > file in the Java Properties Format. > > > > > > > > I figured = that this=20 > would be a good step on the road to an > > > > XML MBean = Persistence=20 > engine. This service operates > > > > externally = to the MBeans=20 > it persists. It is not really in > > > > line with = the JMX spec,=20 > so it doesn't provide MBean > > > > Persistence = in the way=20 > implied by the spec. > > > > Nonetheless, = a=20 > "snapshot" of the server can be written > > > > and loaded = quite easily. > > > > > > > > The details = can be found=20 > in the documentation located > > > > under=20 > $jboss-head/varia/src/reources/master- > > > > = config.sar/documentation=20 > . > > > > > > > > There are a = few little=20 > details that should probably be > > > > ironed out, = but for=20 > those that need MBean persistence > > > > today, this = is a viable=20 > solution. > > > > > > > > The main = audience for=20 > this tool is the system admin that > > > > does not use = or prefer=20 > gui / html configuration tools. The > > > > use of the = Properties=20 > file format is intentional, as it > > > > provides a = more compact=20 > and readible interface when > > > > compared = with the XML=20 > format. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure = about the=20 > location of this code in the source > > > > tree, so I = just put it=20 > in varia for now. I'd appreciate any > > > > ideas on a = better place=20 > for it. > > > > > > > > - Matt = Munz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > You can = respond by=20 > visiting: > > > > > > = https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=3Ddetail&atid=3D381174&aid=3D67253 > > > = 8&group_id=3D22866 > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net = email is=20 > sponsored by: Scholarships for Techies! > > > Can't afford = IT training?=20 > All 2003 ictp students receive > > scholarships. > > > Get hands-on = training in=20 > Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, Linux/UNIX, and > > more. > > >=20 > www.ictp.com/training/sourceforge.asp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > >=20 > Jbo...@li... > > >=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net = email is=20 > sponsored by: Scholarships for Techies! > > > Can't afford = IT training?=20 > All 2003 ictp students receive > > scholarships. > > > Get hands-on = training in=20 > Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, Linux/UNIX, and > > more. > > >=20 > www.ictp.com/training/sourceforge.asp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > >=20 > Jbo...@li... > > >=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net = email is=20 > sponsored by: Scholarships for Techies! > > > Can't afford = IT training?=20 > All 2003 ictp students receive > > scholarships. > > > Get hands-on = training in=20 > Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, Linux/UNIX, and > > more. > > >=20 > www.ictp.com/training/sourceforge.asp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > >=20 > Jbo...@li... > > >=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net = email is=20 > sponsored by: Scholarships for Techies! > > > Can't afford = IT training?=20 > All 2003 ictp students receive > > scholarships. > > > Get hands-on = training in=20 > Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, Linux/UNIX, and > > more. > > >=20 > www.ictp.com/training/sourceforge.asp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > >=20 > Jbo...@li... > > >=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net = email is=20 > sponsored by: Scholarships for Techies! > > > Can't afford = IT training?=20 > All 2003 ictp students receive > > scholarships. > > > Get hands-on = training in=20 > Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, Linux/UNIX, and > > more. > > >=20 > www.ictp.com/training/sourceforge.asp > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > >=20 > Jbo...@li... > > >=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET = email is=20 > sponsored by: > > SourceForge = Enterprise=20 > Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld =3D Something 2 > > See! > > = http://www.vasoftware.com > > =20 > _______________________________________________ > > = Jboss-development mailing=20 > list > > =20 > Jbo...@li... > > =20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > <winmail.dat> > =09 > =09 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = =3Domething 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Jboss-development mailing list > Jbo...@li... > = https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > =09 > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld =3D Something 2 See! > http://www.vasoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > Jboss-development mailing list > Jbo...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development |