jazzplusplus-devel — Discussion Forum for Jazz Developers

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- htdocs - added content to documentation

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM> This patch adds content to the documentation page of
DM> the website. I'll be adding content here for a while...
DM>
DM> In a perfect world, this area should be navigated with
DM> the help of a contents menu. For now, just keep adding
DM> to it in small sectional installments as aligned with
DM> the small patch premise agreed on before....
DM>
DM> I'll start a separate discussion in another thread soon
DM> regarding the documentation directions...

Applied with some slight modifications, but I was hoping this stuff 
would end up as part of the online docs.  Since we can generate HTML 
with that content, I can simply upload it to the web site.  I have 
Tex2RTF building on a Linux box and the Mac.  Maybe we can focus on that 
so you can start adding this type of content to jazz/src/HelpFiles/jazz.tex.

Pete

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- htdocs -- numerous small fixes and additions

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM> This patch applies fixups and additions to
DM> files as per below, and for most of these files
DM> this is the last patch they'll be seeing for a
DM> while....caveat some final hrefs to be added
DM> after I do more on the documentation page which
DM> is next on my list....
DM>
DM> Pete, please review changes to 'download'
DM> content. This allows the 'do nothing' clause
DM> to apply vis available tarball ;-)

Looks good.

DM> Also, I overlooked having a pointer somewhere at
DM> the bottom of the bugreport page indicating where
DM> all these helpful folk could send all their debug
DM> and feedback to  --- this has been added, but only
DM> in context ... I couldn't conclude whether to
DM> have this bugreport mail point back to -user,
DM> -devel, or indeed if a -something_else list was
DM> going to be added...
DM>
DM> ...although pointing such bugreports back to the
DM> -devel list makes absolute sense, I always kind of
DM> think 'when the user has a problem and they -do-
DM> search the mailing list for clues (to their problem),
DM> do they search the -user list first, or the -devel
DM> list first?'....if you see what I mean. The text
DM> reads  ' please send your email to the Jazz++
DM> developers' ....

SourceForge provides us with a bug tracker for Jazz++.  I added the link.

Pete

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM> Subsequent to my previous posting, and carrying my
DM> notion forward about putting soundfiles somewhere
DM> that people can listen to and then conclude whether
DM> or not they have linux kernel latency issues with
DM> their softsynth setup....
DM>
DM> Pete,  can you put this attached mp3 file in..'some
DM> appropriate location' for me please? I'm thinking
DM> about a yet undiscussed 'FAQ' area, and anywhere else
DM> kernel latency issues are touched on, it'd be handy to
DM> be able to link back to this location...I'm sure you
DM> get the idea here ;-)

I put the file on the web under 
htdocs/soundsamples/latency-example-1.mp3.  For the sake of "roalty-free 
open-source" blah, blah blah...  We may also want to post OGG files.

I also put the file in subversion.
Pete

[jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- htdocs - added content to documentation

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

This patch adds content to the documentation page of
the website. I'll be adding content here for a while...

In a perfect world, this area should be navigated with
the help of a contents menu. For now, just keep adding
 to it in small sectional installments as aligned with the small
patch premise agreed on before....

I'll atart a separate discussion in another thread soon
regarding the documentation directions...



See attached file:-  htdocs-documentation-20080518.patch.gz

This patch l

Cleans up some formatting
Adds this man's overview of the linux software MIDI/synth setup


Regards,

Donald B

_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Your message to jazzplusplus-devel awaits moderator approval

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM>> Pete,
DM>>
DM>> I sent an email yesterday and it got tangled around
DM>> the agitator of the moderation tub.
DM>>
DM>> It's a reply to Bob, a demonstration mp3...a
DM>> something for you to do.
DM>>
DM>> When you get a chance, can you clear it please
DM>> and get it to the list?  Thanks...

DM> This is a resend.
DM>
DM> Silly me hit the reply button...followed seconds later
DM> by the send button...and...
DM>
DM> original reply went to jazzplusplus-devel-bounces
DM>
DM> comment=doh!

Since my service provider (verizon) seems to be blocking messages 
related to source forge :-(, thanks for letting me know.  I just 
released your message and one Robert sent many moons ago.

I added my gmail account to the moderators list, so I hope I'll start 
receiving the bounce messages.

Sorry about the delay,
Pete

[jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- htdocs -- numerous small fixes and additions

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greets,

This patch applies fixups and additions to files as per below,
and for most of these files this is the last patch they'll be
seeing for a while....caveat some final hrefs to be added
after I do more on the documentation page which is next
on my list....

Pete,    please review changes to 'download' content. This
allows the 'do nothing' clause to apply vis available tarball ;-)

Also, I overlooked having a pointer somewhere at the bottom
of the bugreport page indicating where all these helpful folk
could send all their debug and feedback to  --- this has been
added, but only in context ... I couldn't conclude whether to
have this bugreport mail point back to -user, -devel, or indeed
if a -something_else list was going to be added...

...although pointing such bugreports back to the -devel
list makes absolute sense, I always kind of think 'when the
user has a problem and they -do- search the mailing list for
clues (to their problem), do they search the -user list first,
or the -devel list first?'....if you see what I mean. The text
reads  ' please send your email to the Jazz++ developers'
....

See attached file :- htdocs-fixups-20080517.patch.gz


Numerous small fixups, additional highlights include;

Added GDB intro/plug, email pointer, obtrusion of thanks
 to bugreports page

Reworked download content to properly document the
existence of 'a non-release tarball release' being available
via sourceforge.

Some wording changed on the Subversion page.


Regards,

Donald B

_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- more fixups for htdocs

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 12:27:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- more fixups for htdocs
> 
> DM = D.B. Moore
> DM> This patch...
> 
> Donald,
> 
> I know this isn't much, but I made the following in appreciation for all 
> of your efforts...
> 
> http://jazzplusplus.sourceforge.net/goldstars/
> 
> Thanks,
> Pete
> 

Aww, geee, shucks...you shouldn't have... ;-)

Thanks, I feel honored. It's not everyday that one earns a gold star.
My last one was back in.....(forget about that thought ;-)


Regards,

Donald B
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Your message to jazzplusplus-devel awaits moderator approval

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

This is a resend.

Silly me hit the reply button...followed seconds later by the send button...and...


original reply went to jazzplusplus-devel-bounces

comment=doh!


> Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 00:20:04 +0000
>
>
>
> Pete,
>
> I sent an email yesterday and it got tangled around the agitator of
> the moderation tub.
>
> It's a reply to Bob, a demonstration mp3...a something for you to do.
>
>
> When you get a chance, can you clear it please
> and get it to the list?  Thanks...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Donald B
> _________________________________________________________________
> Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click here
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30290&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Search_OCT07&_m=EXT

_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- more fixups for htdocs

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM> This patch...

Donald,

I know this isn't much, but I made the following in appreciation for all 
of your efforts...

http://jazzplusplus.sourceforge.net/goldstars/

Thanks,
Pete

[jazzplusplus-devel] Questions about MPU-401 & Jazz++

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

First of, let me state that I have -never- used mpu-401 at all.  I have seen 
one Roland unit, in a shop, a long long time ago. The pricetag was scary
if memory serves me correctly...

Does anyone still use this transport? 

I've already mentioned this...historically poised....in the htdocs recently
added. I recall this being 'a way to make the PC into a music synthesizer' 
- one of those routes was via the soundcard gameport that was running
in MPU-401 (uart??) mode....and then my memory goes all grey. As I 
remember, the one and only example of this stuff I saw, came with it's
own interface card..ISA bus I think.....and if I *really* push the grey matter,
I think I recall seeing some hardware about once...a kit or a hack or cable
wiring particulars....perhaps it was an opto-coupler box that brokeout
to MIDI ports.......does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

Is this going to be implemented in the new Jazz++ code?

If mpu-401 isn't going to be there, this is mostly discussion, and helps
me get the docs all nice, right and straight. On that point, in jazz.tex
a section reads;

JAZZ++'s native MPU-401 midi driver (requires an intelligent-mode MPU-401
interface-card)


My ever wandering research found ;


With computers becoming more powerful, the features offered in "intelligent mode" 
have become obsolete, as implementing them in the host system's software became
 more efficient. As a result, the UART mode became the dominant mode of operation,
with many clones not supporting the "intelligent mode" at all.

...and further to that, I found ;

MPU401 support is no longer included in Windows Vista, but is still supported by
 Linux and Mac OS X.


I was under the impression MPU-401 was dead...?....

Understand, this is all to do with me making sure the documentation is up-to-date
and accurate....and obviously, why include such support in Jazz++ if this 
particular MIDI related system is deprecated and no longer in use in the real world.


As usual, comments, knowledge and any clarity with this would help me here...


Regards,

Donald B
_________________________________________________________________
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[jazzplusplus-devel] Patch -- more fixups for htdocs

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,


This patch ;


Various cosmetic changes and corrections to recently added content
Changed some terminology used referring to soundcard types
Added obtrusion on Subversion page pointing to Reporting Bugs page
Added my own name and duty description to Credits page
.

See attached file :-  htdocs-20080516-fixups.patch.gz


Regards,

Donald B

_________________________________________________________________
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[jazzplusplus-devel] Patch Submission - htdocs/tex2rtf -- first draft

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

   Pete, I believe this is something along the lines of what you
wanted here? As always let me know if you want any changes
and/or additions...


Patch -  htdocs/tex2rtf -- first draft

This patch adds content to web/htdocs/tex2rtf/index.php

Described is a brief history of tex2rtf, it's relationship with
wxWindows/Jazz++, along with details of current developments.

Text also publicly acknowledges Julian Smart's efforts and thanks
him for allowing us to fork his code.



Regards,

Donald B

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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greets,

> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:31:41 -0400
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux    kernel  -       observed        trends
>
> On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 02:03 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
> (snip)
>>
>>
>> I think what I eventually might do, is put some sound files up
>> on our site, which **audibly** demonstrate to users artifacts
>> of sound quality directly related to linux kernel latency issues.
>>
>> That'd be about the best thing to do...IMHO....to help users
>> conclude whether or not they need a better (faster) kernel
>> for their setup. Hope this helps...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Donald B
>>
>>
>
> I tried Jazz++ a couple of ways, both quite good:
>
> * my ux16 USB midi interface hitches to a Motif ES8 which together has
> excellent sound quality.
>

Good to hear...(another pun ;) No timing issues? Don't be scared to be verbose
if what you're doing relates directly to Jazz++'s performance in the real world.


> * The software synth I like is ZynAddSubFX produces its own pleasing
> sound. I use Hydrogen for its drum set. Rosegarden does this, and I
> think Jazz++ can too. (I didn't run Hydrogen from it yet.)

If you do, be sure to let us know if it works okay.  I do know about zyn & lv2,
in fact I've just installed that kit here on my box - but as is common with a lot
of us here, I haven't yet found the time to play with it....but I will get to it...

>
> Probably I need to modify the kernel to hear how good the native midi
> is.
>

You just know I'm going to ask what makes you think that, don't you?  ;-)


Subsequent to my previous posting, and carrying my notion forward
about putting soundfiles somewhere that people can listen to and then
conclude whether or not they have linux kernel latency issues with their
softsynth setup....

Pete,  can you put this attached mp3 file in..'some appropriate location'
for me please? I'm thinking about a yet undiscussed 'FAQ' area, and
anywhere else kernel latency issues are touched on, it'd be handy to
be able to link back to this location...I'm sure you get the idea here ;-)

Bob, listen to the attached mp3 and the sound of the softsynth loosing
the plot entirely, until timelag detection code realizes something gone
terribly wrong and realigns the datastream with where the hardware
is 'right now' as it were. .

This was rendered a few years ago now on a x86_32 with an AMD
athlon 3000+  CPU using AMS on one of my own linux builds. IIRC
the timing glitche started out as a 0.002 second deviance, rising to
0.09 second deviance before the code kicked itself in the pants.

Remember I said this area was a minefield?...yeah, well some of these
timing related issues are not entirely the  kernel or the software's
fault -- it can actually be related to the motherboard chipset being used
and/or the state of play with a particular chipset's driver (in linux).
A good example is what you hear in this mp3, which is going to be
heard a -lot- more by folks with a VIA chipset mainboard (x86),
because this is a known issue with linux/VIA chipsets, and it doesn't
affect just the things we're talking about here - DMA and interrupt
issues with VIA chipsets can plague the video, fb, any manner of things..

....and, just as an example of HOW weird and obscure this can get,
I have a VIA epia-tc10000 board here that initially gave me all sorts
of heck, and I did hours and hours of mucking around with it before
I discovered the effective fix was actually to email the VIA techsupp
crowd about it, who replied with a link to a beta version BIOS image
...so the problem was in BIOS all along, and seemingly only affected
use with a linux kernel...go figure...

Oh...and for the record, what you're hearing in this sound snippet,
(the sound you're supposed to hear :), is a free running AMS patch
I did up for an arty friend who wanted some kind of eerie spacey
sort of ambiance as a sound prop for her display installation. I used
to call this patch "Trapped on a Dalek spaceship with the BBC
Radiophonic Orchestra"   ;-)

Regards,

Donald B



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
>> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Ahet%3Asc%3Anine%3A0%3Ahot%3Atext&_t=764565661&_r=OCT07_endtext_salary&_m=EXT
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008.
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jazzplusplus-devel
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[Robert V. <vo...@ct...>]

On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 02:03 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
(snip)
> 
> 
> I think what I eventually might do, is put some sound files up
> on our site, which **audibly** demonstrate to users artifacts
> of sound quality directly related to linux kernel latency issues.
> 
> That'd be about the best thing to do...IMHO....to help users
> conclude whether or not they need a better (faster) kernel 
> for their setup. Hope this helps...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B
> 
> 

I tried Jazz++ a couple of ways, both quite good:

* my ux16 USB midi interface hitches to a Motif ES8 which together has
excellent sound quality.

* The software synth I like is ZynAddSubFX produces its own pleasing
sound. I use Hydrogen for its drum set. Rosegarden does this, and I
think Jazz++ can too. (I didn't run Hydrogen from it yet.)

Probably I need to modify the kernel to hear how good the native midi
is. 



> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Are you paid what you're worth? Find out: SEEK Salary Centre
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> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. 
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:32:28 -0400
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel -	observed	trends
> 
> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 12:13 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
>> 
>> 
>>>From thread ;
>> 
>> 
>>> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
>>> 
>>> RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
>>> RV> Hi Pete,
>> 
>>> RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
>>> RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
>>> RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
>>> RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
>>> RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
>>> RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> RV>
>>> RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
>>> RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
>>> RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
>>> RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
>>> RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
>>> RV>
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
>> is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
>> considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
>> timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.
>> 
>> Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
>> smelling of herring...
>> 
>> Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
>> probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
>> but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
>> the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
>> SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
>> it's not surprising to find comments like this.
>> 
>> There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
>> rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
>> familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
>> resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
>> believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
>> in certain situations - but most people do not.
>> 
>> What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
>> linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
>> the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
>> doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.
>> 
>> In the configuration phase, they need to set
>> the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
>> matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
>>  is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
>> even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 
>> 
>> It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
>> people are using, determines exactly which kernel
>> options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
>> kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
>> to fix things themselves largely depends on which
>> linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
>> own skills or the instructions they might be following.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
>> prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
>> here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
>> because of the large disparity and possible difference
>> between one linux distro compared to another, the user
>> is very much  largely on their own with that one.
>> 
>> I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
>> ...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
>> someday this will bite us all....
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Donald B
>> 
> Thanks for your note Donald. 
> 
> I think my version of this problem should belong to Debian. If they
> accept a package into a stable version of thier distro, it should run
> with the standard kernel...or they could offer a properly configured
> one.

I actually had the same thought....and really, it's one of the few sane
thoughts one can have regarding this issue.  I think the above should
be --

 'if *any* distribution includes a package in the standard distribution
which requires a low-latency or 'real time' kernel to work properly, then
the distribution vendors should make available a binary kernel package
for people who use such software to easily upgrade their kernel'

Something like that is what I'm hoping will come to pass 'all of it's own
accord'....but I'm a bit of a dreamer ;-)  

This isn't happening yet though, and it'll be (mostly) up to the users
of a particular distribution to lobby their distro's development team
to get such a thing happening at a distro level....

> 
> On the other hand, I can drive an external device or a software synth
> with Rosegarden, so I don't feel that I'm missing much functionality
> even without the RT kernel.
> 
> Can anyone tell me that it is worth the trouble in terms of sound
> quality to patch the kernel ? 
> 
> Bob 

Okay....here's my conclusions about what you ask here above ;

1. As Pete mentioned in a previous posting, the current stage
of development with Jazz++ is trying to get the code stable
and running on all 3 currently supported platforms, and have it
able to replay a .mid file properly in all 3 cases.  (pun ;)
 
2.  If...like Bob here....you are trying to use Jazz++ with an
externally connected MIDI instrument, and you discover it
works, then this support in Jazz++ is incidental at the moment.
We of course want to hear about such incidental success stories
using the current version of Jazz++ with externally connected
MIDI devices, however I am of the belief that problems (if any)
found regarding the use of Jazz++ in this manner, are the focus
of future developmental work with Jazz++....

3. Current development testing is being done using softsynths.

//relative to the above three points in caveat

A> 'Sound quality' (by itself) is;

-determined by the sound quality being produced by either the
external MIDI instrument or the 'internal' softsynth of the platform 
being used.

B> -replay- quality is quite a different thing, because it involves 
timing (of the notes being played)...in this case ;

-- form a mental picture : you are replaying a .mid file using Jazz++
with an externally connected MIDI device. A passage of the score 
is quite complex, involving many percussive voices, bass lines, the
whole works...and when replaying this passage you notice the 
external MIDI instrument 'dropping notes' or else 'dropping voices'
as it moves through the score.

These are timing issues that will affect the sound quality of the
file being replayed, because certain notes, events, or voices aren't
being reproduced by the external MIDI instrument. There can be
a number of causes responsible for this sort of thing, and *one* of
them is it's because your (linux) kernel isn't configured to handle
this sort of 'real time' duty.

C> In the case of replaying via softsynth (on linux), latencies in
the kernel really *do* affect the sound quality and the timing issues.

-- the timing issues will manifest themselves in more or less the 
exact same way as described above for external MIDI instruments.

-- the sound quality of the softsynth output really sounds horrid
if your computer/linux kernel isn't quick enough. The noise produced
is best described as 'a harsh sound akin to static' and if you hear it
once you'll always remember  it. (not kindly, but you'll instantly
recognize what you're hearing ;-). 


I think what I eventually might do, is put some sound files up
on our site, which **audibly** demonstrate to users artifacts
of sound quality directly related to linux kernel latency issues.

That'd be about the best thing to do...IMHO....to help users
conclude whether or not they need a better (faster) kernel 
for their setup. Hope this helps...

Regards,

Donald B








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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[Robert V. <vo...@ct...>]

On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 12:13 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
> 
> 
> >From thread ;
> 
> 
> > Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> > 
> > RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> > RV> Hi Pete,
> 
> > RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> > RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> > RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
> > RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
> > RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
> > RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)
> 
> 
> 
> > RV>
> > RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
> > RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
> > RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
> > RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
> > RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
> > RV>
> 
> 
> Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
> is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
> considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
> timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.
> 
> Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
> smelling of herring...
> 
> Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
> probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
> but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
> the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
> SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
> it's not surprising to find comments like this.
> 
> There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
> rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
> familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
> resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
> believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
> in certain situations - but most people do not.
> 
> What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
> linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
> the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
> doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.
> 
> In the configuration phase, they need to set
> the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
> matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
>  is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
> even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 
> 
> It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
> people are using, determines exactly which kernel
> options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
> kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
> to fix things themselves largely depends on which
> linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
> own skills or the instructions they might be following.
> 
> 
> I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
> prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
> here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
> because of the large disparity and possible difference
> between one linux distro compared to another, the user
> is very much  largely on their own with that one.
> 
> I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
> ...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
> someday this will bite us all....
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B
> 
Thanks for your note Donald. 

I think my version of this problem should belong to Debian. If they
accept a package into a stable version of thier distro, it should run
with the standard kernel...or they could offer a properly configured
one.

On the other hand, I can drive an external device or a software synth
with Rosegarden, so I don't feel that I'm missing much functionality
even without the RT kernel.

Can anyone tell me that it is worth the trouble in terms of sound
quality to patch the kernel ? 

Bob 


> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch Submission - htdocs bugreports content - first draft

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM>> Pete,  here's my proposal for the majority of
DM>> content for the bug reports webpage. As opposed
DM>> to simple editing and correcting of existing
DM>> content, this is new content submitted for your
DM>> approval. Please review (holding in mind certain
DM>> points detailed below),  and deal with it as you
DM>> see fit.

DM> Doh!! Take me outside and shoot me!!
DM>
DM> I forgot to mention that this patch also contains
DM> draft text meant for the documentation part of the
DM> website....(my only excuse is re-quoting the famous
DM> passage "it was late, I was tied, and just before
DM> my head hit the keyboard..")

I can relate to that ;-)

DM> That content maybe incomplete, but it gives you
DM> the idea of where I'm headed.
DM>
DM> First draft means that though - corrections expected,
DM> and I can re-diff the patch in two parts if you want.

DM>> There are things missing/omitted from this draft
DM>> that need be addressed. Exampled paths are relative
DM>> to linux, as are some of the command sequences.
DM>>
DM>> *Add Windows and Mac paths relative to examples.as
DM>> required
DM>> *Include any Windows and Mac specific commands or
DM>> methodology if required
DM>>
DM>> See attached file :- htdocs-bugreports-instructions.patch.gz
DM>>
DM>> **BE WARNED** -- although the formatting output looked
DM>> fine here, I noticed the patch looked a little strange...
DM>> almost like my CR turned itself off. Too tired to deal
DM>> with that now - supplied as a patch with a warning that
DM>> WYS is not nearly always WYG....
DM>>
DM>> ...And of course, to everyone else here - have a look at
DM>> the content, and see what you think. Anything missing?
DM>> Things I shouldn't have said or ought to have said?
DM>> I'm sure everyone knows the drill, and understands
DM>> criticism both good and/or bad is expected and always
DM>> welcome.

I didn't review the content, but I did apply it.  It's up on the web 
site and committed in SVN...

Thanks,
Pete

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Question about external link references

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:52:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Question about external link references
> 
> DM = D.B. Moore
> DM>>> My question is, do we wish to email such documents'
> DM>>> authors, kindly requesting them to update their links??
> 
> PS = Pete Stieber
> PS>> Your call.
> 
> DM> At this stage of the project's development, I thought
> DM> it prudent -not- to 'open too many gates' on the 'net
> DM> right now.
> 
> I can't even keep up with all of your posts and the good work you are 
> doing.  I put in 12 hrs. at work yesterday.  Frustrating, but I love my 
> job too.  Just not enough time in the day.
> 

Please, never feel obliged nor pressured to keep up with all my posts.
I'm sure you don't - I'm just making that clear. As I mentioned in a 
previous email, I do have an inordinate amount of free time at present,
and I'm obviously taking advantage of that fact here to the best of
my ability. I try not to get frustrated about anything and typically
don't - politicians and world leaders frustrate the %*&% out of me
though, regardless of how much I try to ignore frustration....

For the record, I expect my postings to be touched on (by others)
...(or not ;)....in 'the near future' ..and that could be two weeks from now.


Regards,

Donald B
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Question about external link references

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

DM = D.B. Moore
DM>>> My question is, do we wish to email such documents'
DM>>> authors, kindly requesting them to update their links??

PS = Pete Stieber
PS>> Your call.

DM> At this stage of the project's development, I thought
DM> it prudent -not- to 'open too many gates' on the 'net
DM> right now.

I can't even keep up with all of your posts and the good work you are 
doing.  I put in 12 hrs. at work yesterday.  Frustrating, but I love my 
job too.  Just not enough time in the day.

DM> I did however spend a time finding old link references
DM> out there, and I've tossed them  into my bookmarks to
DM> remind me of something todo when Jazz++ gets nearer a
DM> release date.
DM>
DM> I did leave one gate ajar behind me....I updated a wiki, see ;
DM>
DM>  http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/jazz
DM>
DM> That sort of minimalistic update is what I call 'the
DM> short cast with a very light line and a tiny hook' ;-)

Perfect.

Pete

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

RV = Robert Vogel
RV>>> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch
RV>>> stable system. It looked ok throughout the
RV>>> build process, and it produced an executable.
RV>>> When I tried opening the executable, it...
<snip>

PS = Pete Stieber
PS>> Thanks for trying this with the code in such a
PS>> preliminary state.  I'm just trying to get a
PS>> MIDI file loading and playing on all platforms at
PS>> this point.
PS>>
PS>> Try this...
PS>>
PS>> 1. Update the code and rebuild.  You can copy the new
PS>> jazz binary over the one in TestInstall/bin.
PS>> 2. Rename the config file in your home directory so
PS>> it isn't used.
PS>> 3. Make sure the .alsa_input_device and the
PS>> .alsa_output_device entries in
PS>> TestInstall/share/Jazz++/jazz.cfg are set to -1 so
PS>> you will be prompted for input and output
PS>> devices.
PS>> 4. Run the version in TestInstall/bin.
PS>>
PS>> Let us know how it goes.

RV> False alarm. Getting the cfg file out of my home
RV> directory changed everything. First it opened a
RV> dialog that allowed me to specify the device
RV> environment, then I was happy to see that the
RV> sequence is now working, and the metronome no
RV> longer hangs...although I can't really hear
RV> the metronome yet.

I am able to hear it on the Windows box I'm working on at the moment. 
User the "Settings | Metronome..." menu entry to bring up the Metronome 
Dialog and set the velocity to 127, and try different drum kit elements.

RV> Sounds good.

Excellent!

RV> Is the record button implemented ?

Not yet.  I have to get event and track selection working first.  I've 
started on event selection first, but it doesn't understand the current 
scrolling mechanism.

You can tell what I'm working on by monitoring the commit messages via

https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=jazzplusplus-updates

to subscribe visit

https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jazzplusplus-updates

Bob, I know you are already subscribed, but I couldn't resist the chance 
to advertise the updates list ;-)

Thanks for testing,
Pete

[jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700


>From thread ;


> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> 
> RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> RV> Hi Pete,

> RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
> RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
> RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
> RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)



> RV>
> RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
> RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
> RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
> RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
> RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
> RV>


Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.

Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
smelling of herring...

Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
it's not surprising to find comments like this.

There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
in certain situations - but most people do not.

What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.

In the configuration phase, they need to set
the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
 is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 

It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
people are using, determines exactly which kernel
options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
to fix things themselves largely depends on which
linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
own skills or the instructions they might be following.


I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
because of the large disparity and possible difference
between one linux distro compared to another, the user
is very much  largely on their own with that one.

I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
someday this will bite us all....

Regards,

Donald B




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[jazzplusplus-devel] Is this a good idea?

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,


I'll be doing a bit more on the docs tonight - I just want to put this thought
out here to make sure everyone agrees. (if you've read my earlier 'first draft'
posting, you'd have probably guessed I was headed tis way.. ;-)

In one section of the -debug page- text, I mention the fact that people in
the devel team have real MIDI hardware, but that a lot of current development
is being tested using softsynth instead.

On that same page, I also state that it might be of help to developers, if
people finding problems (with replay currently) using externally connected
MIDI equipment, to fallback to the softsynth position and try again, and 
report if that fixed their problem or not.

I'm conscious of hardware layers. What works correctly on the softsynth
path may not (yet) work when that extra layer is used to get I/O to that
externally connected MIDI hardware. If users fallback to softsynth in these
early testing days, it will A>effectively test their current jazz installation
against current development trends and models, B> possibly give us an
early heads up that issues do exist at this level, so creating a pointer for
the TODO list in that happy future you see me talking about a lot ;-)

(and there will be issues here, I'll guarantee it...but I'll voice those thoughts
later in their own threads}

To finish off some of the documentation 'in context' , I'm assuming the
following things as current 'defacto testing standards' -

1. On linux, the softsynth setup using the jack/fluidsynth/qsynth method
is the current default for testing.

2. On Mac, it's the same.

3. On Windows, the softsynth setup facilitated by shipped soundcard
drivers in conjunction with the Windows midi/sound API is the default.


As always, let me know, comments, thoughts, etc etc etc...


Regards,


Donald B



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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] configure.ac update -please test-

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 02:14:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] configure.ac update -please test-
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:38:17 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] configure.ac update -please test-
>> 
>> DM = D.B. Moore
>> DM> Yep, no problem.... the back trace without vkeybd
>> DM> running but with jack/fluidsynth/qsynth running
>> DM> and ready to go (complete session);
>> 
>>> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
>>> [Switching to Thread 140090596853472 (LWP 3341)]
>>> snd_seq_port_subscribe_set_sender (info=0x7fff6a45d310, addr=0x0) at seq.c:2432
>>> 2432            memcpy(&info->sender, addr, sizeof(*addr));
>>> Current language:  auto; currently c
>>> 
>>> (gdb) bt
>>> #0  snd_seq_port_subscribe_set_sender (info=0x7fff6a45d310, addr=0x0)
>>>     at seq.c:2432
>>> #1  0x0000000000426a59 in tAlsaPlayer::subscribe_inp (this=0xb68020, inp=0)
>>>     at ../../jazz/src/AlsaPlayer.cpp:219
>> 
>> My current guess is an invalid input or output device index.  Could you 
>> update you source tree, rebuild, run again and let me know how it goes?
>> 
> 

I had a closer look at this problem just now....here's what I've found ;

~/Jazz++/TestInstall/bin# aconnect -l -o
client 130: 'AlsaModularSynth' [type=user]
    0 'ams             '
        Connected From: 129:0
client 131: 'FLUID Synth (qsynth)' [type=user]
    0 'Synth input port (qsynth:0)'
        Connected From: 129:0

~/Jazz++/TestInstall/bin# aconnect -l -i
client 0: 'System' [type=kernel]
    0 'Timer           '
    1 'Announce        '
        Connecting To: 128:0, 129:0
client 130: 'AlsaModularSynth' [type=user]
    1 'ams             '
        Connecting To: 129:0[real:0]
    2 'ams             '
        Connecting To: 129:0[real:0]


Qsynth is not creating/registering any alsa_input_ports,
whereas AMS (and vkeybd) do.

If I start jazz and  if finds no alsa_input_ports, it will
*not* pop the 'select input' dialog window, and instead
continue bravely forth and pop the 'select output' dialog
window instead.

In this condition, it doesn't matter which output port
is selected, clicking on 'OK' to confirm the output selection
results in the crash observed.

Provided jazz finds at least one (or more) valid alsa_input_ports
to try and connect to at init, the 'select input' dialog box is
displayed, followed by the 'select output' dialog box, and jazz
starts and runs as currently expected.

Regards,

Donald B   
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch Submission - htdocs bugreports content - first draft

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:55:41 +0000
> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Patch Submission - htdocs bugreports content -	first draft
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Pete,  here's my proposal for the majority of content for the bug reports webpage.
> As opposed to simple editing and correcting of existing content, this is new content
> submitted for your approval. Please review (holding in mind certain points detailed
>  below),  and deal with it as you see fit.
> 

Doh!! Take me outside and shoot me!! 

I forgot to mention that this patch also contains draft text meant for the
documentation part of the website....(my only excuse is re-quoting the 
famous passage "it was late, I was tied, and just before my head hit the keyboard..")
That content maybe incomplete, but it gives you the idea of where I'm headed.

First draft means that though - corrections expected, and I can re-diff the
patch in two parts  if you want.

Regards,

Donald B 

> There are things missing/omitted from this draft that need be addressed. Exampled
> paths are relative to linux, as are some of the command sequences.
> 
> *Add Windows and Mac paths relative to examples.as required
> *Include any Windows and Mac specific commands or methodology if required
> 
> See attached file :- htdocs-bugreports-instructions.patch.gz
> 
> **BE WARNED** -- although the formatting output looked fine here, I noticed
> the patch looked a little strange...almost like my CR turned itself off. Too tired
> to deal with that now - supplied as a patch with a warning that WYS is not 
> nearly always WYG....
> 
> 
> ...And of course, to everyone else here - have a look at the content, and see what
> you think. Anything missing? Things I shouldn't have said or ought to have said?
> I'm sure everyone knows the drill, and understands criticism both good and/or bad
> is expected and always welcome.
> 
> 
> I'll checkout a build of rev.525 in the morning. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Question about external link references

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:53:18 -0700
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Question about external link references
> 
> DM = D.B. Moore
> DM> My question is, do we wish to email such documents'
> DM> authors, kindly requesting them to update their links??
> 
> Your call.
> 

At this stage of the project's development, I thought it
prudent -not- to 'open too many gates' on the 'net right now.
I did however spend a time finding old link references out
there, and I've tossed them  into my bookmarks to remind
me of something todo when Jazz++ gets nearer a release date.

I did leave one gate ajar behind me....I updated a wiki, see ;

 http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/jazz

That sort of minimalistic update is what I call 'the short cast
with a very light line and a tiny hook' ;-)

Regards,

Donald B






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