gl4java-usergroup

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLAnimCanvas

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

Virgil Wall wrote:

> I've
> never tried to put an AWT heavy-weight component on top of a GLCanvas, so
> I'm not even sure if this would work.

According to my tests, GLCanvas is always at the top (no matter if is is Swing,
or Swing with lightweight flag set to off or AWT). You may of course create
another window and then it can be layered.

Max


--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Strange System resets and messages.

[John O. <Jo...@md...>]

Sorry the destroy method belongs to my derived class LODGame from
GLAnimCanvas.
As you can see (below) I seem to be doing everything Max suggests and I am
now beginning to wonder if it is a bug in my OGL driver and that Virgil
might be right.

As for the CardLayout idea, I know what he is getting at (not deleting the
panel, or creating a new GLAnimCanvas every time), however I tried it before
except just using Borderlayout and it didn't help.

I think the error messages which happen in every program when shutting down
or symptons of driver bugs and the cause.

public void destroy()
{
//Destroy the GLContext
cvsDispose();
}

And the start and end Game methods are:
public void startGame(DataInputStream input, DataOutputStream output)
{
removeAll();
game = new LODGame(getSize().width, getSize().height,
                        e_Name.getText() , b_Color.getBackground(), input,
output);
gamePanel.add(game);
add(gamePanel, BorderLayout.CENTER);
game.start();
validate();
}
public void stopGame()
{
game.destroy();
removeAll();
// Display UI code
...
}

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLAnimCanvas

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

John Owens wrote:

> if I then
> try to repeat that process from then on the GLAnimCanvas isn't displayed,
> any ideas.

If you're not doing this, you need to destroy OpenGL context before removing
its component from the screen. Humanly-speaking :-) you must call cvsDispose
and then init component again when it gets displayed again.

Max


--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Strange System resets and messages.

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

John Owens wrote:

> Also when I destroy a GLAnimCanvas using it's destroy method

? destroy method? I can't find such a thing in 2.2.


> BTW - The system resets happen in Internet Explorer or Appletviewer or in
> Apps, even in Applets on the Jausoft site.

If you do not destroy OGL contexts properly, system resources may get messed
up, but it's only a guess. Anyway, it's M$ product so it's possible ;-)

Max


--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLAnimCanvas

[Virgil W. <vir...@ra...>]

> Hi, I am new to GL4Java so I am having a few problems with GLAnimCanvas
> among others.
>
> You see I have a Panel which contains the start screen and a panel which
> contains the GLAnimCanvas plus others.
>
> When I press a button on the Start Panel it calls calls removeAll() and
adds
> the panel which contains GLAnimCanvas(game Panel) then I start it running.
> This works. Now when I press another button it does the same thing except
> swapping the game Panel for the start Panel. This works however if I then
> try to repeat that process from then on the GLAnimCanvas isn't displayed,
> any ideas.

I'm totally guessing here, but I'll bet the native window handle might go
invalid when you remove your game panel.  You might instead try using a
cardlayout layoutmanager to toggle between your game and start panel.  I've
never tried to put an AWT heavy-weight component on top of a GLCanvas, so
I'm not even sure if this would work.

Btw, I use windows 2000 with a leadtek geForce but don't seem to experience
the system restarts (under any vm).

>
>
> My System is Windows 2000 with a Creative TNT2 Ultra using JDK 1.2.2 and
> Swing when I am developing or MS VM when not.
>
> Live Long and Prosper
> ICQ - 45835769
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gl4java-usergroup mailing list
> gl4...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup
>

[gl4java-usergroup] Strange System resets and messages.

[John O. <Jo...@md...>]

Also when I destroy a GLAnimCanvas using it's destroy method, I get a:
 gljFree failed
gljDestroy failed (free)

Also after running a few GL4Java programs either Applets or Apps, my machine
resets itself.
I know it is still early days so I am not complaining but I just would like
to know is anyone else having the same difficulties.

My System is Windows 2000 with a Creative TNT2 Ultra using JDK 1.2.2 and
Swing when I am developing or MS VM when not.

BTW - The system resets happen in Internet Explorer or Appletviewer or in
Apps, even in Applets on the Jausoft site.

Live Long and Prosper
ICQ - 45835769

[gl4java-usergroup] GLAnimCanvas

[John O. <Jo...@md...>]

Hi, I am new to GL4Java so I am having a few problems with GLAnimCanvas
among others.

You see I have a Panel which contains the start screen and a panel which
contains the GLAnimCanvas plus others.

When I press a button on the Start Panel it calls calls removeAll() and adds
the panel which contains GLAnimCanvas(game Panel) then I start it running.
This works. Now when I press another button it does the same thing except
swapping the game Panel for the start Panel. This works however if I then
try to repeat that process from then on the GLAnimCanvas isn't displayed,
any ideas.


My System is Windows 2000 with a Creative TNT2 Ultra using JDK 1.2.2 and
Swing when I am developing or MS VM when not.

Live Long and Prosper
ICQ - 45835769

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] RE: GL4Java FAQ update and other things

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

Anthony Rogers wrote:

> hello Max hope u are well ?

Yup, thanks!


> Well i have a Irix 6.5 SGI OS2, but i couldnt get GL4Java to install on it,
> and havent yet worked out how to manually do it

Hm... Sven! Should I remove Irix port from the list or these are just Anthony's
problems?


> gziemski has updated the build to the latest version :) top man.

(scratching... scratching... :-) updated.

Max

--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gl4java-usergroup] RE: GL4Java FAQ update and other things

[Anthony R. <aN...@to...>]

hello Max hope u are well ?


> - if there are any AIX/IRIX/Solaris/WindowsNT/2000 GL4Java
> users, please let me know about OpenGL drivers for you platorms
> that can be used with GL4Java (vendor URL, download URL,
> OpenGL version)

Well i have a Irix 6.5 SGI OS2, but i couldnt get GL4Java to install on it,
and havent yet worked out how to manually do it (i'm not to hot with unix u
see)


> - how about OpenGL support on Macintosh? I`ve seen a banner on opengl.org
> saying`welcome Apple to OpenGL family`. Does it mean that there is/will be
> OpenGL 1.2 support on Macintosh?

Yep OpenGL 1.2 is out on the Mac. You can find a port of GL4Java @
http://members.home.net/gziemski/pages/projects/GL4Java.html

gziemski has updated the build to the latest version :) top man.

most of my messing about it on the Mac with OpenGL so i can tell you first
hand it rocks.


aNt

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Partial generation

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

Jean-Yves BRUD wrote:

> Is it possible to regenerate only one sub-rectangle of the full canvas
> while using the GLCanvas ?

glScissor() would be what you need (consult Red Book for details). Or
stenciling in general.

Bye,
Max

--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gl4java-usergroup] Partial generation

[Jean-Yves B. <jea...@wa...>]

Hello,

Maybe it is an openGL question but:

Is it possible to regenerate only one sub-rectangle of the full canvas
while using the GLCanvas ?

Thank you.

Jean-Yves BRUD
Palahou - 31330 LARRA
France
Mail: jea...@wa...

[gl4java-usergroup] GL4Java FAQ update and other things

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

Hi!

Updated version of GL4Java FAQ can be found at
http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis/OpenGL/GL4Java-FAQ.html

Updated:
- driver info
- added section 'OpenGL vs Java3D on Java platform. Doesn't Java3D fit
better into object environent than OpenGL?'
- some minor changes

Some requests:
- please read the FAQ and send your suggestions/fixes. Do you think (Rick?
Kerry?) that this new section would answer your questions if you were new
GL4Java user?
- if there are any AIX/IRIX/Solaris/WindowsNT/2000 GL4Java users, please
let me know about OpenGL drivers for you platorms that can be used with
GL4Java (vendor URL, download URL, OpenGL version)
- how about OpenGL support on Macintosh? I've seen a banner on opengl.org
saying'welcome Apple to OpenGL family'. Does it mean that there is/will be
OpenGL 1.2 support on Macintosh?

Bye,
Max

--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...)
http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLCanvas

[Anthony R. <aN...@to...>]

me try it tonight, thanks for all the input :). i hope its not a MacOS bug,
narr it cant be the demo works ok. hummmmmm... ok me try it again :)


aNt



> From: "Kerry L. Bonin" <ke...@vs...>
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:51:20 -0700
> To: Anthony Rogers <aN...@to...>,
> <gl4...@li...>
> Subject: Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLCanvas
> 
> I inherit from GLAnimCanvas, here's my code, adapted from some of the demo
> source:
> 
> Class var:
> TGATextureGrabber textgrab = null;
> 
> In the init() method:
> textgrab = new TGATextureGrabber( gl );
> 
> After drawing frame:
> textgrab.grabPixels( GL_BACK, 0, 0, getWidth(), getHeight() );
> textgrab.write2File( "screenshot.tga" );
> 
> Works great for me.
> 
> At 04:03 PM 4/17/00 +0100, Anthony Rogers wrote:
>> yoyoyo hello...
>> 
>> i take it the TGA exporter only works with the GLCanvas not the Animation
>> Canvas ??? it come out black if i use the Animation canvas :)
>> 
>> aNt
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> gl4java-usergroup mailing list
>> gl4...@li...
>> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup
>> 
>> 

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] GLCanvas

[Kerry L. B. <ke...@vs...>]

I inherit from GLAnimCanvas, here's my code, adapted from some of the demo
source:

Class var:
  TGATextureGrabber textgrab = null;

In the init() method:
  textgrab = new TGATextureGrabber( gl );

After drawing frame:
  textgrab.grabPixels( GL_BACK, 0, 0, getWidth(), getHeight() );
  textgrab.write2File( "screenshot.tga" );

Works great for me.

At 04:03 PM 4/17/00 +0100, Anthony Rogers wrote:
>yoyoyo hello...
>
>i take it the TGA exporter only works with the GLCanvas not the Animation
>Canvas ??? it come out black if i use the Animation canvas :)
>
>aNt
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>gl4java-usergroup mailing list
>gl4...@li...
>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup
>
>

[gl4java-usergroup] GLCanvas

[Anthony R. <aN...@to...>]

yoyoyo hello...

i take it the TGA exporter only works with the GLCanvas not the Animation
Canvas ??? it come out black if i use the Animation canvas :)

aNt

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Re: trademarks

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

te...@at... wrote:

> Kerry:
>
> Maybe, I missed an earlier mailing but what about
> JavaScript - absolutely no relation to Java but it
> survives?

What about all other names with word 'Java' included... someone with unlimited
internet connection could take a look and find some more - do they all pay?

Max


--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] OpenGL vs Java3D (was: Re: GL4Java FAQ]

[Kerry L. B. <ke...@vs...>]

At 02:05 PM 4/13/00 -0400, RICK ANDERSON wrote:
>
>It also gets back to my original point, I assumed that the folks who did
GL4Java
>had a reason for the decision/approach that was made.  In my case, I guessed
>wrong on the reason.
>
>Either way, I'd suggest capturing, IN THE FAQ, the essence of the reason for
>putting a thin layer on top of OpenGL as opposed to using the Java3D API.
There
>are d*mn good reasons for the choice and it makes sense to capture them.

FWIW: It wasn't my decision, but when I found gl4java I was just about to
do the same thing.  My reason was simple - there are many conflicting
design requirements in 3D apps - from games to widget spinners.  The only
way to satisfy both ends of the API spectrum is to provide both ends of the
API - low level and high level, preferably in a manner which allows
coexistence.  OpenGL is the best low level cross platform rendering
abstraction, so it made sense to start there.  Thanks to Sven (et. al), I'm
getting to focus on my high level and application code.

>Are you the guys who presented "How to keep 10,000 online gamers happy" last
>year at JavaOne?  There was an awful lot of "then a miracle happens and we
won't
>tell you how" in that presentation :-)

I didn't present there, done plenty of other presentations in the past.
That group is typical - they think dynamic load balancing is sufficient.
It isn't, its caps out at a few thousand, breaks well before 10k.  Properly
implemented "adaptive clustering" has no theoretical bound, it approaches
O(n).  I'll file preemptive patent soon on the stuff I'll be releasing.
Not to mention all the security issues that have to be done "RIGHT".  Wish
I could say more, am willing to answer most specific questions off list. :)




Kerry L. Bonin
Sr. Engineer, Security/Cryptography & Advanced Visualization, Cisco Systems.
VScape lead architect - Adaptive secure clustering for multiuser VR.

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] OpenGL vs Java3D (was: Re: GL4Java FAQ]

[RICK A. <RIC...@sl...>]

>It is my opinion that the Java3D team "does not get it".  They have "yet
>another API", but it is what I would call an "academic" design.

I can easily believe this.  There are several of the Sun-Java teams that seem to
have the NIH syndrome bigtime.  The Java collection folks come to mind as an
example of extreme hubris.  JGL wasn't good enough, so they re-invented it
(poorly) from scratch.  At the same time, they decided that the official java
collections should also be exempt from following the JavaBean naming conventions
defined by their own company????  The best way to deal with that kind of
arrogance is simply ignore them until they go away.

This provides a great deal of clarity and makes the approach taken by gl4java
make a lot more sense.

It also gets back to my original point, I assumed that the folks who did GL4Java
had a reason for the decision/approach that was made.  In my case, I guessed
wrong on the reason.

Either way, I'd suggest capturing, IN THE FAQ, the essence of the reason for
putting a thin layer on top of OpenGL as opposed to using the Java3D API.  There
are d*mn good reasons for the choice and it makes sense to capture them.

>FWIW, I've been working on a cool project which now sits on top of gl4java,
>here's a uber-brief explanation from a posting to another list a while back:
>
>Our project is a massively multi-user VR system, highly scalable using a
>network of normal PC's which self organize into "clusters"

Are you the guys who presented "How to keep 10,000 online gamers happy" last
year at JavaOne?  There was an awful lot of "then a miracle happens and we won't
tell you how" in that presentation :-)

> I've got tons of C++/Glide code that I'm porting into Java/OpenGL
..
> The project will go open source when it hits beta
Sounds very cool!


>Kerry L. Bonin

>>At 04:10 PM 4/13/00 +0200, Max Gilead wrote:
>>Hi!
>>
>>Let me tell you the story...
>>
>>In deep past I was doing some programming in C++ (it was loong time ago...
>>when 386
>>were good machines ;-)
>>About a year ago I started to learn Java. In order to learn this from
>>practical
>>side I decided to write a 3D modeler as a learning exercise (this
>>excercise is
>>still not yet finished :-). After about three months I had to decide which
>>3D API
>>to use. So, in that time I was a Java programmer almost totally without C/C++
>>knowledge. First I tried Java3D because it was 'native' Java API. I read
>>some docs
>>about it and was wondering why the hell it's so complicated? Then I
>>decided to try
>>OpenGL. Whoa! That was it! OpenGL is simpler, faster to learn, easier to
>>use and
>>easier to do what you really want to. Java3D is higher-level library that
>>simply
>>does not fit my needs (editor). It's OK for displaying animations etc. but
>>when you
>>need to fiddle with separate vertices and change them often, it's not a good
>>solution.
>>
>>Java3D and OpenGL are not competing APIs. They're too different.
>>
>>And, in my humble opinion Java3D is not a good, clean API as OpenGL is. For
>>example, take a look at its javax.vecmath package... say, you have a
>>Point3d point
>>and Matrix3d matrix which is a rotation matrix and you want to rotate this
>>point
>>using matrix. Obvious solution would be:
>>point.rotate(matrix);
>>but in Java3D you write:
>>matrix.translate(point); - for me it's doing things backward.
>>J3D's vecmath package doesn't have TONS of useful methods which I had to
>>write
>>myself. Solution was simple: two weeks ago I sit down, removed
>>Java3D-compatible
>>mathematical package from Fictor and wrote my own one - fast, simple and
>>flexible.
>>
>>You are right in one thing: using bare OpenGL as it is is sometimes
>>awkward in
>>object environment, but it's a matter of simple wrapper class and one or two
>>components and anyway one can get used to it :-) If you think about
>>writing such a
>>wrapper class, I would be interested to cooperate. In fact, I have written
>>such a
>>component but it's not finished yet.
>>
>>And - Java is whole lot better language than C++, not just slower... and
>>anybody
>>should agree on it's mailing list :-)
>>
>>Bye,
>>Max
>>
>>RICK ANDERSON wrote:
>>
>>> I question that I expected in the fact but which was missing from the
>>>current
>>> FAQ is the simple explanation of the relationship between GL4Java and
>>>the Java3D
>>> api.  Of particular interest would be the *why* part of the explanation.
>>>
>>> There's two approaches one could take, both of which assume that the actual
>>> OpenGL calls would need to be mapped to native methods:
>>>
>>> 1) Map the current OpenGL calls as close as possible to Java
>>>equivalents.  This
>>> allows existing OpenGL developers to easily move to Java because it
>>>leverages
>>> their existing knowledge base.
>>> 2) Implement the Java3D api and map the calls to the OpenGL equivalents.
>>> This
>>> approach would probably be preferred by most "pure" Java developers as a
>>> strategy which is more consistent with the Java philosophy of layering
>>>its API's
>>> on top of existing OS services.  In this case, the ultimate service
>>>would be
>>> provided by OpenGL, rather the the OS.
>>>
>>> Obviously GL4Java is using the first approach, but someone coming from
>>>the Java
>>> world would be interested in knowing the reasons this approach was used,
>>>rather
>>> then the second.  They would also be interested in knowing if you are
>>>aware of
>>> anyone doing the second approach.
>>>
>>> Personally, I find the choice to go this route to be somewhat confusing
>>>since
>>> it's primary beneficary is a C/C++ programmer.  Why would a C/C++
>>>programmer
>>> switch to doing the same thing, but slower?
>>>
>>> An interesting task would be to take these methods, and add the Java3D
>>>api on
>>> top of them.-- A. Rick
>>
>>--
>>Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>_______________________________________________
>>gl4java-usergroup mailing list
>>gl4...@li...
>>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup
>>

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] OpenGL vs Java3D (was: Re: GL4Java FAQ]

[Kerry L. B. <ke...@vs...>]

Agreed.  Until recently I was a lead engine developer in the games
industry.  I got to sit in on a number of interesting Java related
conferences and round table discussions.  Once I got to meet the entire
Java3D team and ask them a number of hard questions.

It is my opinion that the Java3D team "does not get it".  They have "yet
another API", but it is what I would call an "academic" design.  By this I
do not just mean it misses most of the features most critical for game
developers (fast vertex access, fine grain texture control), the API is
unacceptably high-level without justification.  Once again, great for
spinning teapots and canned animation playback, but terrible for anything
interactive or closer to the "edge".

FWIW, I've been working on a cool project which now sits on top of gl4java,
here's a uber-brief explanation from a posting to another list a while back:

=====
We're from the games industry, with backgrounds in VR, distributed
processing and cryptographic protocols.  This project comes from 15+ years
of applied research, one example of was OnLive's Traveler (I was their 3D
guy, employee #4) which used a very small subset of this technology.

Our project is a massively multi-user VR system, highly scalable using a
network of normal PC's which self organize into "clusters" that provide a
fault tolerant, secure, and high speed distributed back end.  It includes
full duplex audio chat.  This gives us persistence, user custom content and
deformable objects, as well as other very cool things we won't talk about
yet. :)
=====

I've got tons of C++/Glide code that I'm porting into Java/OpenGL, and have
tons more to finish writing.  I've got a distributed scene graph, but I'm
trying damn hard to keep the individual objects from having to get tied to
that aspect of the architecture - I'm keeping interfaces clean so
components can be reused outside of the sg overhead.  It's worked so far,
one company is already using my texture code in their commercial flight sim
product.

The project will go open source when it hits beta, I'm competing against
teams at Sony and Microsoft for some multiplayer targets and I got tired of
them being the majority of hits to my web site, so access isn't unlimited
_yet_, but it will be.

I would be interested in collaborating and/or exchanging code (under
LGPL/BSD type terms, not GPL) on things over gl4java.  Objects I've got
running or almost running: CLOD terrain (patch based for dynamic loading,
deformable, fast terrain following), Quake2 and Quake3 avatars, a skydome
w/ time of day and atmospherics, starchart driven starfield.  Lots more on
the way.  Interested in (will work on next in any case) particle systems,
inverse kinematics and skeletal animations, an animation engine for 3DS/Max
tracks, and a mini-web browser that runs on texture arrays on world objects.

Kerry L. Bonin
Sr. Engineer, Security/Cryptography & Advanced Visualization, Cisco Systems.
VScape lead architect - Adaptive secure clustering for multiuser VR.

At 04:10 PM 4/13/00 +0200, Max Gilead wrote:
>Hi!
>
>Let me tell you the story...
>
>In deep past I was doing some programming in C++ (it was loong time ago...
when 386
>were good machines ;-)
>About a year ago I started to learn Java. In order to learn this from
practical
>side I decided to write a 3D modeler as a learning exercise (this
excercise is
>still not yet finished :-). After about three months I had to decide which
3D API
>to use. So, in that time I was a Java programmer almost totally without C/C++
>knowledge. First I tried Java3D because it was 'native' Java API. I read
some docs
>about it and was wondering why the hell it's so complicated? Then I
decided to try
>OpenGL. Whoa! That was it! OpenGL is simpler, faster to learn, easier to
use and
>easier to do what you really want to. Java3D is higher-level library that
simply
>does not fit my needs (editor). It's OK for displaying animations etc. but
when you
>need to fiddle with separate vertices and change them often, it's not a good
>solution.
>
>Java3D and OpenGL are not competing APIs. They're too different.
>
>And, in my humble opinion Java3D is not a good, clean API as OpenGL is. For
>example, take a look at its javax.vecmath package... say, you have a
Point3d point
>and Matrix3d matrix which is a rotation matrix and you want to rotate this
point
>using matrix. Obvious solution would be:
>point.rotate(matrix);
>but in Java3D you write:
>matrix.translate(point); - for me it's doing things backward.
>J3D's vecmath package doesn't have TONS of useful methods which I had to
write
>myself. Solution was simple: two weeks ago I sit down, removed
Java3D-compatible
>mathematical package from Fictor and wrote my own one - fast, simple and
flexible.
>
>You are right in one thing: using bare OpenGL as it is is sometimes
awkward in
>object environment, but it's a matter of simple wrapper class and one or two
>components and anyway one can get used to it :-) If you think about
writing such a
>wrapper class, I would be interested to cooperate. In fact, I have written
such a
>component but it's not finished yet.
>
>And - Java is whole lot better language than C++, not just slower... and
anybody
>should agree on it's mailing list :-)
>
>Bye,
>Max
>
>RICK ANDERSON wrote:
>
>> I question that I expected in the fact but which was missing from the
current
>> FAQ is the simple explanation of the relationship between GL4Java and
the Java3D
>> api.  Of particular interest would be the *why* part of the explanation.
>>
>> There's two approaches one could take, both of which assume that the actual
>> OpenGL calls would need to be mapped to native methods:
>>
>> 1) Map the current OpenGL calls as close as possible to Java
equivalents.  This
>> allows existing OpenGL developers to easily move to Java because it
leverages
>> their existing knowledge base.
>> 2) Implement the Java3D api and map the calls to the OpenGL equivalents.
 This
>> approach would probably be preferred by most "pure" Java developers as a
>> strategy which is more consistent with the Java philosophy of layering
its API's
>> on top of existing OS services.  In this case, the ultimate service
would be
>> provided by OpenGL, rather the the OS.
>>
>> Obviously GL4Java is using the first approach, but someone coming from
the Java
>> world would be interested in knowing the reasons this approach was used,
rather
>> then the second.  They would also be interested in knowing if you are
aware of
>> anyone doing the second approach.
>>
>> Personally, I find the choice to go this route to be somewhat confusing
since
>> it's primary beneficary is a C/C++ programmer.  Why would a C/C++
programmer
>> switch to doing the same thing, but slower?
>>
>> An interesting task would be to take these methods, and add the Java3D
api on
>> top of them.-- A. Rick
>
>--
>Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup
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>

[gl4java-usergroup] OpenGL vs Java3D (was: Re: GL4Java FAQ]

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

Hi!

Let me tell you the story...

In deep past I was doing some programming in C++ (it was loong time ago... when 386
were good machines ;-)
About a year ago I started to learn Java. In order to learn this from practical
side I decided to write a 3D modeler as a learning exercise (this excercise is
still not yet finished :-). After about three months I had to decide which 3D API
to use. So, in that time I was a Java programmer almost totally without C/C++
knowledge. First I tried Java3D because it was 'native' Java API. I read some docs
about it and was wondering why the hell it's so complicated? Then I decided to try
OpenGL. Whoa! That was it! OpenGL is simpler, faster to learn, easier to use and
easier to do what you really want to. Java3D is higher-level library that simply
does not fit my needs (editor). It's OK for displaying animations etc. but when you
need to fiddle with separate vertices and change them often, it's not a good
solution.

Java3D and OpenGL are not competing APIs. They're too different.

And, in my humble opinion Java3D is not a good, clean API as OpenGL is. For
example, take a look at its javax.vecmath package... say, you have a Point3d point
and Matrix3d matrix which is a rotation matrix and you want to rotate this point
using matrix. Obvious solution would be:
point.rotate(matrix);
but in Java3D you write:
matrix.translate(point); - for me it's doing things backward.
J3D's vecmath package doesn't have TONS of useful methods which I had to write
myself. Solution was simple: two weeks ago I sit down, removed Java3D-compatible
mathematical package from Fictor and wrote my own one - fast, simple and flexible.

You are right in one thing: using bare OpenGL as it is is sometimes awkward in
object environment, but it's a matter of simple wrapper class and one or two
components and anyway one can get used to it :-) If you think about writing such a
wrapper class, I would be interested to cooperate. In fact, I have written such a
component but it's not finished yet.

And - Java is whole lot better language than C++, not just slower... and anybody
should agree on it's mailing list :-)

Bye,
Max

RICK ANDERSON wrote:

> I question that I expected in the fact but which was missing from the current
> FAQ is the simple explanation of the relationship between GL4Java and the Java3D
> api.  Of particular interest would be the *why* part of the explanation.
>
> There's two approaches one could take, both of which assume that the actual
> OpenGL calls would need to be mapped to native methods:
>
> 1) Map the current OpenGL calls as close as possible to Java equivalents.  This
> allows existing OpenGL developers to easily move to Java because it leverages
> their existing knowledge base.
> 2) Implement the Java3D api and map the calls to the OpenGL equivalents.  This
> approach would probably be preferred by most "pure" Java developers as a
> strategy which is more consistent with the Java philosophy of layering its API's
> on top of existing OS services.  In this case, the ultimate service would be
> provided by OpenGL, rather the the OS.
>
> Obviously GL4Java is using the first approach, but someone coming from the Java
> world would be interested in knowing the reasons this approach was used, rather
> then the second.  They would also be interested in knowing if you are aware of
> anyone doing the second approach.
>
> Personally, I find the choice to go this route to be somewhat confusing since
> it's primary beneficary is a C/C++ programmer.  Why would a C/C++ programmer
> switch to doing the same thing, but slower?
>
> An interesting task would be to take these methods, and add the Java3D api on
> top of them.-- A. Rick

--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Re: trademarks

[<te...@at...>]

Kerry:

Maybe, I missed an earlier mailing but what about 
JavaScript - absolutely no relation to Java but it 
survives?

Tegwyn
> At 02:28 PM 4/12/00 +0200, Max Gilead wrote:
> >
> >"Kerry L. Bonin" wrote:
> >
> >> For marks protecting products or product lines, it is considered "dilution"
> >> and "confusing to the marketplace" if someone else uses a product or
> >> product name which encorporates your mark, no matter how subtly.
> >
> >One thing I don't understand: there are zillions web pages, magazines that
> are
> >named like "JavaCats", "JavaCenter", "Javablahblah" etc. Is it OK??
> >
> >Does *ALL* other software folks that uses Java in their names pay for it?
> 
> That's one of those gray "fair use" areas.  For non-product names, such as
> a news and information site, a mark holder can [generally] cut leeway
> without it being used against them in a product related suit.  Some
> organizations choose to be aggressive and stop everybody from doing
> anything - Disney, Lego.  Others allow more slack.  The pseudo-"open"
> aspect of the "community process" and the "open" Java standards forces this
> position somewhat.  
> 
> The differentiating factor is product vs. non-product, regardless of
> product price and terms.
> 
> It all comes back to mark "dilution" suits for product infringement.  One
> interesting current example is the Sun-M$ suit r/e Microsoft's attempts to
> continue to use the term "Java" for their increasingly divergent
> implementation.  For example, if Sun doesn't watch how "Java" is used,
> Microsoft may win the right to call their implementation "ActiveJava" or
> "BillyBoyJava" or "RealJava" regardless of specification compliance.
> Kerry L. Bonin
> Sr. Engineer, Security/Cryptography & Advanced Visualization, Cisco Systems.
> VScape lead architect - Adaptive secure clustering for multiuser VR.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gl4java-usergroup mailing list
> gl4...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gl4java-usergroup

Re: [gl4java-usergroup] Re: trademarks

[Kerry L. B. <ke...@vs...>]

At 02:28 PM 4/12/00 +0200, Max Gilead wrote:
>
>"Kerry L. Bonin" wrote:
>
>> For marks protecting products or product lines, it is considered "dilution"
>> and "confusing to the marketplace" if someone else uses a product or
>> product name which encorporates your mark, no matter how subtly.
>
>One thing I don't understand: there are zillions web pages, magazines that
are
>named like "JavaCats", "JavaCenter", "Javablahblah" etc. Is it OK??
>
>Does *ALL* other software folks that uses Java in their names pay for it?

That's one of those gray "fair use" areas.  For non-product names, such as
a news and information site, a mark holder can [generally] cut leeway
without it being used against them in a product related suit.  Some
organizations choose to be aggressive and stop everybody from doing
anything - Disney, Lego.  Others allow more slack.  The pseudo-"open"
aspect of the "community process" and the "open" Java standards forces this
position somewhat.  

The differentiating factor is product vs. non-product, regardless of
product price and terms.

It all comes back to mark "dilution" suits for product infringement.  One
interesting current example is the Sun-M$ suit r/e Microsoft's attempts to
continue to use the term "Java" for their increasingly divergent
implementation.  For example, if Sun doesn't watch how "Java" is used,
Microsoft may win the right to call their implementation "ActiveJava" or
"BillyBoyJava" or "RealJava" regardless of specification compliance.
Kerry L. Bonin
Sr. Engineer, Security/Cryptography & Advanced Visualization, Cisco Systems.
VScape lead architect - Adaptive secure clustering for multiuser VR.

[gl4java-usergroup] Re: trademarks

[Max G. <gi...@li...>]

"Kerry L. Bonin" wrote:

> For marks protecting products or product lines, it is considered "dilution"
> and "confusing to the marketplace" if someone else uses a product or
> product name which encorporates your mark, no matter how subtly.

One thing I don't understand: there are zillions web pages, magazines that are
named like "JavaCats", "JavaCenter", "Javablahblah" etc. Is it OK??

Does *ALL* other software folks that uses Java in their names pay for it?

Max


--
Max Gilead (gi...@li...) http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gl4java-usergroup] RE: trademarks

[Kerry L. B. <ke...@vs...>]

Preface: IANAL (I am not a lawyer) i.e. I haven't taken the bar exam (yet),
I'm a programmer - but I am a paralegal and have represented myself and
others in and out of court, have given lawyers obscene amounts of money to
answer similar questions and draw up contracts, ect. ad nauseum.  Nuff
disclaimer... :)

Trademark law is an ugly thing.  Once you obtain a trademark, it becomes
your legal duty to go after anyone and everyone who uses it without
permission.  The limits on "fair use" of someone else's trademark is prety
much limited to mentioning or describing their mark.  

For marks protecting products or product lines, it is considered "dilution"
and "confusing to the marketplace" if someone else uses a product or
product name which encorporates your mark, no matter how subtly.  For
example, Lego(tm)(sic) corp. just wrote a website which had used images of
a lego soldier and walkie talkie to cease and desist on these grounds.

If you don't do this, if you simply 'ignore' someone who's pushing the
edge, it becomes possible for another party to bend it much farther, and by
citing proof that you ignored someone else, they may win the right to use
your mark or (worse) to have your mark placed effectively into the public
domain.

This sucks, but its how the law works.  (Keeps lots of lawyers well fed. :)

In the case of gl4java, now that it is on their radar, they have the right
to issue a cease and desist or license use of a term which encorporates
their mark.

I'd recommend looking for other instances Sun has licensed use of the term
"java" as a subset of a product or package name to a (small) third party,
then start making a case for similarity to their trademark office.
Mentioning that the term has had high profile use will help.  The down side
is that Sun tends to ignore groups that don't pay annual "consulting" fees.

Kerry L. Bonin
Sr. Engineer, Security/Cryptography & Advanced Visualization, Cisco Systems.
VScape lead architect - Adaptive secure clustering for multiuser VR.

RE: [gl4java-usergroup] Jausoft - GL4Java trademark

[Sven G. <sgo...@ja...>]

Dear GL4Java users,
Dear Adam, Dear tra...@su..., 

we are just waiting for a response/solution/hint
from tra...@su... !

Thats it !

Please tell them !

Best regards, 

Sven

mailto:sgo...@ja...
www: http://www.jausoft.com
voice: +49-521-2399440, +49-170-2115963; fax: +49-521-2399442

-----Original Message-----
From:	Adam Wisnewski [contractor] [SMTP:ad...@en...]
Sent:	Tuesday, April 11, 2000 7:19 PM
To:	gi...@li...; gl4...@li...
Subject:	[gl4java-usergroup] Jausoft - GL4Java trademark

Hello,

Thanks very much for sending your thoughts and ideas. However, as I have 
pointed out before, writing to me is not going to help decide this 
situation.

I am the administrator for the Java(SM) Solutions Marketplace. I look for 
companies to invite into our catalog and ensure that basic tradmark rules 
have been followed. Those rules are laid out for me by our Legal 
Department. You will need to bring your thoughts and ideas to them, so 
please write to:

tra...@su...

When they are satisfied with the situation, whether it is a name change or 
involves no change at all, they will let me know. Until that time, thank 
you very much for your concern for our guidelines and your support of 
Java(TM) technology.

Adam


> X-Accept-Language: en
> To: tra...@su..., GL4Java mailing list 
<gl4...@li...>
> CC: Adam Wisnewski <ad...@en...>
> Subject: GL4Java trademark
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I'd like to express my deep surprise that Sun is trying to force change 
of
> GL4Java library. Due to my understanding whoever wrote the first mail 
saying
> that using GL4Java without written agreement with Sun is illegal was 
simply
> wrong. Here's why...
> 
> GL4Java is NOT a Sun trademark. Read this sentence taken from Sun's 
copyright:
> 
> Sun, the Sun logo, Sun Microsystems, Solaris, HotJava, and Java are 
trademarks
> or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the U.S. and 
certain
> other countries.
> 
> Even from this notice it's clear that 'HotJava' and 'Java' are two 
DISTINCT
> trademarks and so is 'GL4Java'. So, to my best understanding this 
discussion is
> pointless from the legal point of view. Period.
> This is like Microsoft would copyright word 'Word' and sued everyone that 
uses
> it in their own application names like 'WordPerfect'...
> 
> There is also another issue: supporting Java platform with good libraries 
and
> good software. In my (and all other GL4Java users) opition this is one of 
the
> best (if not THE best) Java - OpenGL binding. OpenGL is the only portable
> high-performance graphics API and GL4Java makes its usage in Java
> straightforward. Java3D API is completely different from OpenGL and is 
simply
> not a good solution in some circumstances. So I think that Sun should 
support
> good libraries that are making Java even better programming environment.
> 
> Explaining it in Java:
> 
> Expression ("Java".equals("GL4Java")) is false...
> 
> So let's be friends :-)
> 
> Bye,
> Max
> 
> 
> --
> Max Gilead (gi...@li...) 
http://3d.linart.krakow.pl/OfficinaArtificialis
> 
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> 


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