RE: [Algorithms] Game Entities - avoiding inheritance / fixed p ool allocation

[Mark D. <mdanks@STORMFRONT.com>]

  I completely agree with Christer and Charles.

  A "middle-ground" is definitely what we are going for.  In fact, all of
this "data-driven" stuff that we have done is mainly for the programmers,
not for the designers.  As an example, no designer at Stormfront writes
actual scripts.  We have a level editor which connects all of the object
scripts together, sets parameters, machine generates the real game scripts,
etc.  But if you want to make a new script, we have only exposed both how to
do it and the actual language to the programmers.

  However, the designers and artists have a ton of little tools which they
can piece together in ways we never expected, and most of the time it
doesn't require a programmer.  In general, if they have done something
before, it shouldn't require a programmer to do it again (like add a new
character and assign a basic behavior set).

  Considering that I have rewritten the object hierarchy ever time a project
starts up, I have learned that making something to last forever just isn't
that useful :-)

Later, Mark

==============================
= md...@st...
= Technical Director PS2/XBox
= http://www.danks.org/mark
==============================
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: chr...@pl...
> [mailto:chr...@pl...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:01 PM
> To: gda...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Game Entities - avoiding inheritance / fixed
> pool allocation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a wide spectrum of informal definitions of what
> 'data driven' means. On the far left is a very pragmatic definition
> simply saying that the engine is data driven if it allows artists
> and designers to do various things without programmer intervention.
> On the far right is the everything-is-polymorphic-and-everything-
> can-be-anything engine, all controlled from a data file written
> out by the tools.
> 
> The latter seems to be something that appeals to techy people just
> because it is flashy and a programming challenge. It is certainly
> what gets discussed in various incantations again and again.
> 
> You easily get the idea that everyone thinks that data-drivenness
> in absurdum is 'da bomb' and that it is the only way to go. You
> don't see many people arguing for the left side of the scale --
> so, I thought I'd stick my neck out and do just that.
> 
> My personal opinion, based on some experience and possible biased
> by a streak of old-schoolism, is that the right-hand side view is
> overengineering. It makes your typical game oh so much more
> complicated, with rather unclear benefits.
> 
> Do they really end up using all these advanced features? (No.)
> Is it really worth spending all that time on something they're
> not using? (No.) In the end, is it really buying you something
> that you wouldn't have been able to accomplish with a simpler
> system? (No.)
> 
> 
> FYI, we have an engine where even the order of our various server
> subsystems (animation, rendering, scripts, etc) is controlled
> from a data file. If no animation system is connected from the
> data file, then by golly, there won't be an animation system
> running in the engine. If you want the scripts to run after
> rendering, you specify this through the data file. This means we
> can't even run our engine without a data file to initialize it,
> creating the hierarchy of servers that you'll run the game on.
> 
> Does this really buy us anything? Of course not. Does it
> complicate the debugging? You betcha. Did we get carried away?
> Yes. Should we rip it out? Absolutely.
> 
> 
> It's not something I lose sleep over, but the more I see and,
> perhaps, the older I get, I find the thought of hardline data-
> drivenness less and less appealing and I'm turning more and more
> left on the scale.
> 
> Presumably the truth is somewhere in-between. But no one is
> advocating that either. It's still not techy, flashy, cool
> stuff -- it's just pragmatical and what gets your game done.
> 
> I guess I'm ranting, so I'll shut up now.
> 
> 
> Christer Ericson
> Sony Computer Entertainment, Santa Monica
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.NET email is sponsored by:
> SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See!
> http://www.vasoftware.com
> _______________________________________________
> GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
> GDA...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188
>