This is a disussion thread regarding the impact of Windows 7 becoming End of Life.
This is NOT a discussion of the merits of Windows v Linux or any other operating system. Extending the discussion beyond Windows 7 End of Life and its impact will add not value.
Windows 7 was launched in 2009, but Microsoft is supporting Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 installed until 14 January 2020. That is still eight months away, so we have plenty of time to decide what to do.
Microsoft used to support its software by providing free security updates for ten years. It also means the end-of-life (EOL) date has been known well in advance, so industry and users can prepare for the end of life date.
Windows 8 was launched in 2012,. However, Windows 8 included a lot of innovations to convert an old desktop operating system into an 'always-on' mobile OS that could run touch-screen apps on smartphones and tablets. The Windows 8 Live Tiles interface was not welcomed by a lot of industry or users as most did not have touch screens, which was most of us.! This meant that people – and industry in particular – kept buying Windows 7 PCs for much longer than usual life cycle period.
When Microsoft launched Windows 10, it offered home users running Windows 7 and 8.1 a free in-place upgrade via the GWX (Get Windows 10) until 29 July 2016. This was a good offer at the time as the GWX offer did not validate the Windows 7 product key … hopefully, you took advantage of the GWX offer. Once you installed Windows 10, your PC’s right to use it was registered online.
However, Microsoft left the door open to free upgrades via its accessibility website until 31 December 2017. Microsoft has also continued to provide free upgrades to Windows 10 if you enter a valid Windows 7 product key. To do this, download Windows 10 and use Microsoft’s free media creation tool to create a DVD or USB thumbdrive to do the upgrade.
Whether it is worth paying for Windows 10 depends on how long you expect your PC to last… as the cost of Windows 10 is high and a new computer with the improved performance may be the way to go. Or, you can use Linux or an alternative – but, this thread is about Windows 7 and Great Cow BASIC.
Windows 7 will not stop working when it reaches its end-of-life date. However, Microsoft will stop providing security updates, which will put the computer at risk. This is a fact. You will survive if you are careful, if you keep all your other software up to date, use a secure browser such as Google Chrome and a strong anti-virus program, run risky programs in a sandbox such as Sandboxie, and have a full backup ready to go if something goes wrong. I do not recommend this approach, but some people will.
So, what of the impact to Great Cow BASIC. We will, at some point, in the next eight months migrate the development computers from Windows 7 to Windows 10. This means:
Primary testing will be completed on Windows 10.
The packaging and the release tools will be migrated to Windows 10.
Third level support will be based on Windows 10.
The key applications as follows will be assessed for Windows 10 compatibility and alternatives proposed if we cannot ensure compatibility
The key Windows applications are:
SynWrite as the IDE– this is a high risk of failure as this is a end of life application.
The IDE wrapper.
PPS Tool
XpressLoader.exe
Putty
Terminal
TinyMultiBootloader+
WinPICgm
PK3 Gui
IPE-Pusher
PK2 Gu
PK2Cmd
Micronucleus
avrdudess
avrdude
there may be more… let us know.
Over the coming months we will need to define a strategy that handles this looming date from a developement perspective and a user perspective.
What is your view?
What are the challenges and the migitations to theses challenges that you see?
What is your view of the developers remaining on Windows 7 and the assiocated risks?
Looking forward to the response.
Evan
Last edit: Anobium 2019-05-02
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SynWrite as the IDE– this is a high risk of failure as this is a end of life application.
May I suggest PSPad? pspad.com
It's similar in many ways to SynWrite, but (in my experience) much nicer. Amazingly, it's developed and maintained by one person, Jan Fiala. It's still being worked on today.
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@Stan. Please read the serious nature of the discussion. Think like it is today. We test using Win 7, we do not test Win XP. And, in a potential future will test under Win 10 and hope Win 7 works. Conversely, we stay on Win7 and hope it works on Win 10.
Which do you consider to be the least risky?
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PPSTool has been developed and tested on Windows 10 for a long time now, possibly from the start :)
My opinion is move development over to Windows 10 as and when you can. At the moment there doesn't seem to be massive compatibility issues between windows 7 and windows 10 software - drivers seem to be a bit more tricky.
Using a newer version of the .net framework with the latest patches might be a problem in the future as there will come a point when the older versions are not available for download on the latest OS.
The last "stable/tested" windows 7 release can always be kept available for download if required, using an older set of libraries and as a 32bit version.
PPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSTool
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I thought win 7 updates ended years ago...so what win 7version you have won't have changed since then.
When I use win 10 I select metered network so it doesn't auto install updates...cos they break something.
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I've just more or less retired Windows 2000 for good.
I'm still using Windows XP (32 bit and 64 bit) on occasion and I am still getting updates for XP's Microsoft Security Essentials (manual downloads from Microsoft's site). If you change the operating system identifier in the registry to the POS version, you can still get the normal MS security updates (the latest up[date was last month). The main reason I'm still using XP is that it takes far less memory, loads and runs faster - bear in mind I'm using Parallels VMs for Windows on a 2012 Apple Mac mini (16GB, 2.3GHz i7 quad core) running the current macOS.
For more recent programs that don't like XP, I generally use Windows 7 (minus the telemetry "update").
I did allow one Windows 7 VM to "upgrade" to Windows 10. I read about the excessive Microsoft "telemetry" so setup a proxy server on my FreeBSD server and watched the almost continuous stream of telemetry heading for Microsoft and what appeared to be non-Microsoft domains. I experimented with the various free and paid for programs that claimed to disable telemetry, but none stopped it dead. So, I enabled the Windows firewall with a default policy denying all connections in and out, and then selectively enabled individual programs. All the internet data still goes through the proxy (the FreeBSD firewall stops any data going direct)) and none of the telemetry appears. The only downside is the volume of entries in the event log from various things wanting to talk telemetry, though this doesn't seem to be causing any problem. So, I have a workable, non-spying Windows 10 VM which I use occasionally to test code.
Now for some statistics :)
According to https://netmarketshare.com (a service often quoted by Microsoft) Windows 10 usage as of March 2019 finally crept past Windows 7 - the shares as at 1 Marfch 2019 were claimed to be 10 - 39.22% and 7 - 36.9%. That is 3 years after Windows 10 launched and after those Windows 7 users survived the Micsosoft "forced upgrade" to Windows 10 (recall, for example, chossing to close the window \offering the upgrade was taken by Microsoft as consent to it happening). Unless something drastic happens in the next 8 mnths I think it safe to assume that there will still be a substantial number of users using Windows 7.
On the other hand, there is the volunteer time taken to QA programs on multiple operating system versions. Whether it could be sustained testing on two versions of Windows is not something I am in a position to answer. Whether the load could be spread by an additional volunteer/s is an open question I also cannot answer. Sometimes hard decsioons need to be taken.
Perhaps the next step should be to survey the current Great Cow BASIC users as to operating system versions and future intentions. At least then a decision could be made based on the best available information as to whether it is worth QAing more than one version of the operating system. After that, options could be considered.
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I have to side with Trev 90% on this (it loses 10% because I don't use or trust Apple).
I still Use Win XP in VM's and Win 7 64 as my Primary system, locked down and Microsoft locked out, all security patches etc. I download and install manually.
Under no circumstances will I ever install Windows 10 Spyware, and as alternatives are not up for discussion, I will continue to use Win 7 exclusively for GCBASIC.
If GCBASIC ceases to support or run on Win7 then I will survive on the last release that does run and there after withdraw from the dev team. But I suspect GCBASIC and Win 7 has more life left in it than I do and will long outlast me so I will continue contributing where I can for as long as I can.
So lets start looking for a new, Simple, Functional and hopefully Portable IDE as our main priority and then as Peter says Test on both platforms for as long as dot.Net supports win7, and longer if the Dot.Net update only adds stuff that GCBASIC hs no need of (i.e. compile to the old and the new versions of dot.net where possible, because Microsoft WILL introduce a new dot.net version to deliberately break win 7 support for applications and force upgrades it is in their nature and business model).
Last edit: Chris Roper 2019-05-04
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I'm in the same boat as others here, currently using Windows 7 and am in no hurry to replace it with something that spys on me constantly or breaks itself because it's decided to install some poorly tested update. I'll be sticking with 7 for as long as possible and will decide which way to go next year when support ends.
From past experience, we probably don't have too much to worry about. Newer versions of operating systems tend to introduce more restrictions, but if we don't do anything weird then we should be OK. Older operating systems sometimes lack APIs or libraries that newer compilers generate calls to, but as long as FreeBASIC can generate code for older versions of Windows, the core compiler will be fine.
The only issues I can recall having had with GCBASIC over the past 13 years were restrictions on accessing the Program Files directory in Vista and above, and having to add a line of config to GCGB to mark it as compatible with newer .NET frameworks (otherwise newer versions of Windows would insist on downloading .NET 1.1 or 2.0). Oh, and one person who was still using a 486 with Windows 95 and who asked for a special build of gcbasic.exe that was compiled for 486 rather than 586.
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For Windows 7 and 8, you need to uninstall the following updates if they've been installed to remove the Microsoft telemetry:
KB971033-- Description of the update for Windows Activation Technologies
KB2952664 -- Compatibility update for keeping Windows up-to-date in Windows 7
KB2976978 -- Compatibility update for keeping Windows up-to-date in Windows 8.1 and Windows 8
KB2990214 -- Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows
KB3021917 -- Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements
KB3022345 -- Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB3035583 -- Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1
KB3044374 -- Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10
KB3068708 -- Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB3075249 -- Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
KB3080149 -- Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB3123862 -- Updated capabilities to upgrade Windows 8.1 and Windows 7
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KB971033-- Description of the update for Windows Activation Technologies
KB2990214 -- Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows
had both slipped through on my system, but no trace of the rest was found.
Both now removed.
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I think that GCB development should be tested and built by the generous developers on their current OS. By which I mean, users should not expect the developers to change their Operating System to suit the users. If users want to use Windows 1.0 for the 8086 processor (oh yes, it did exist, came on 5 1/4", 360K disks too) for developing using GCB and find that it fails to work, perhaps it might be time that they became more active in developing (or actively assisting in developing) a version that does run on an 8086 processor.
Likewise, if the majority of the development team are using Windows 10 and GCB then fails to work in Windows 7, perhaps it is time for the users to move on also?
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Users move on from win 7 cos gcb doesn't work...not a good enough reason.
win 7 is my favourite version from using win 3.1 (which was dos with gui!) through 95,98,xp.
When the free win 10 upgrades came out I upgraded an old laptop to dual boot win 10 and 7.
After a year or so a win 10 upgrade told me my win 7 wasn't a valid version...brill.
On another win 7 laptop, the laptop was under spec to run the win 10 upgrade.
The original post was support will end...so if gcb works,what can stop it after upgrades end?
ie what wlll change win 7 after no more updates?
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The risk is not that Win7 stops working it is that New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC. That would then mean that GCBASIC would only run on that new DLL. The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.
We are fortunate that GCBASIC is not compiled by a Microsoft Compiler but we will have to hope that the compiler we use continues to support win 7 after microsoft cease support.
Last edit: Chris Roper 2019-05-06
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The risk is not that Win7 stops working---why would it stop working?
New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC.---why?
The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.---do they do this by making dot.net obsolete?
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>The risk is not that Win7 stops working---why would it stop working?
Exactly
>New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC.---why?
The GCBASIC compiler is written in a high level language and compiled to the target Operating System by a platform specific compiler for the target platform. The Windows version of the compiler makes Core Windows calls via a set of Microsoft Libraries called dot.net, the Linux and Apple versions compile to a compatible set of libraries called mono. dot.net and mono runtime libraries are supplied as dll files on the target operating systems.
>The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.---do they do this by making dot.net obsolete?
They are constantly updating dot.net to add new features, fix bugs or patch security issues. If dot.net is updated on the device used to compile the GCBASIC Compiler for windows but is not updated on win 7 because it is end of life then GCBASIC will continue to work on newer versions of windows and on Linux/MacOS but no longer work on win7.
I hope that helps clarify the issue, it is a little confusing due to the complexity of application portability but maybe a cross platform developer could clarify further if needed.
.
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the Linux and Apple versions compile to a compatible set of libraries called mono. dot.net
and mono runtime libraries are supplied as dll files on the target operating systems.
Just a small correction. Apple does not require mono runtime libraries at all. Instead, compiling the native macOS GCBASIC compiler uses Apple's SDK frameworks which are generally backward compatible for the most part.
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The GCBASIC compiler is written in a high level language and compiled to the target Operating System by a platform specific compiler for the target platform.
So.. an existing gcb would work on win 7 with the last ever update.?
Could gcb new version be compiled on a win 7 pc to keep it compatable and say it's legacy version for win 7?
all a bit complicated all this. It's hard enough working out how new software works.
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I'm a Mac user and I run Windows 7 under Parallel, without sharing internet between OSX and Windows 7. Accordingly Windows should be safer. (I hope)
Following your discussion I would outline points already touched and motivate a choice (already suggested in the last post).
The end of life of Windows 7 means that future Great Cow Basic Users will not buy it. They will buy news Windows versions.
It does not means that the old Users will live Windows 7.
On the contrary, it appears clear that the old Users does not appreciate the new incoming Windows versions.
Similarly, it appears clear that it is unrealistic to think of inducing new Great Cow Basic Users to use a dead operating system.
On the other side, at this time, I believe that most of the users of Great Cow Basic use Windows 7.
And so, I understand the concern of the GCB developers about the end of life of Windows 7.
I. e. they would satisfy old Users and, at the same time, gain new Users .
Furthermore, this optimal result should be reached with the minimum effort.
As always, the solution resides in a compromise.
According to the last post by Stan, I think that there is only this choice: during a transition time the Great Cow Basic should be tested on both the operating systems, the one destined to be abandoned and the one destined to take over.
However, I do not know how much effort will be required and/or how long the transition period will last.
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I think users use win 7 cos they like it. The win 10 upgrade is still free some where. I sownloaded a win 10 64 bit upgrade from ms somewhere. It works but is slower than the 32 bit version on a 64bit pc.
Some where I got the impression that parts of gcb were written using free basic...so where's that leave freebasic...on win 7?
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This is a disussion thread regarding the impact of Windows 7 becoming End of Life.
This is NOT a discussion of the merits of Windows v Linux or any other operating system. Extending the discussion beyond Windows 7 End of Life and its impact will add not value.
Windows 7 was launched in 2009, but Microsoft is supporting Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 installed until 14 January 2020. That is still eight months away, so we have plenty of time to decide what to do.
Microsoft used to support its software by providing free security updates for ten years. It also means the end-of-life (EOL) date has been known well in advance, so industry and users can prepare for the end of life date.
Windows 8 was launched in 2012,. However, Windows 8 included a lot of innovations to convert an old desktop operating system into an 'always-on' mobile OS that could run touch-screen apps on smartphones and tablets. The Windows 8 Live Tiles interface was not welcomed by a lot of industry or users as most did not have touch screens, which was most of us.! This meant that people – and industry in particular – kept buying Windows 7 PCs for much longer than usual life cycle period.
When Microsoft launched Windows 10, it offered home users running Windows 7 and 8.1 a free in-place upgrade via the GWX (Get Windows 10) until 29 July 2016. This was a good offer at the time as the GWX offer did not validate the Windows 7 product key … hopefully, you took advantage of the GWX offer. Once you installed Windows 10, your PC’s right to use it was registered online.
However, Microsoft left the door open to free upgrades via its accessibility website until 31 December 2017. Microsoft has also continued to provide free upgrades to Windows 10 if you enter a valid Windows 7 product key. To do this, download Windows 10 and use Microsoft’s free media creation tool to create a DVD or USB thumbdrive to do the upgrade.
Whether it is worth paying for Windows 10 depends on how long you expect your PC to last… as the cost of Windows 10 is high and a new computer with the improved performance may be the way to go. Or, you can use Linux or an alternative – but, this thread is about Windows 7 and Great Cow BASIC.
Windows 7 will not stop working when it reaches its end-of-life date. However, Microsoft will stop providing security updates, which will put the computer at risk. This is a fact. You will survive if you are careful, if you keep all your other software up to date, use a secure browser such as Google Chrome and a strong anti-virus program, run risky programs in a sandbox such as Sandboxie, and have a full backup ready to go if something goes wrong. I do not recommend this approach, but some people will.
So, what of the impact to Great Cow BASIC. We will, at some point, in the next eight months migrate the development computers from Windows 7 to Windows 10. This means:
The key Windows applications are:
Over the coming months we will need to define a strategy that handles this looming date from a developement perspective and a user perspective.
What is your view?
What are the challenges and the migitations to theses challenges that you see?
What is your view of the developers remaining on Windows 7 and the assiocated risks?
Looking forward to the response.
Evan
Last edit: Anobium 2019-05-02
May I suggest PSPad? pspad.com
It's similar in many ways to SynWrite, but (in my experience) much nicer. Amazingly, it's developed and maintained by one person, Jan Fiala. It's still being worked on today.
Windows 7 Kaput :(
@Janis.
And, your point is?
Dump your win 7 pc cos it'll catch fire when running gcb....??
@Stan. Please read the serious nature of the discussion. Think like it is today. We test using Win 7, we do not test Win XP. And, in a potential future will test under Win 10 and hope Win 7 works. Conversely, we stay on Win7 and hope it works on Win 10.
Which do you consider to be the least risky?
PPSTool has been developed and tested on Windows 10 for a long time now, possibly from the start :)
My opinion is move development over to Windows 10 as and when you can. At the moment there doesn't seem to be massive compatibility issues between windows 7 and windows 10 software - drivers seem to be a bit more tricky.
Using a newer version of the .net framework with the latest patches might be a problem in the future as there will come a point when the older versions are not available for download on the latest OS.
The last "stable/tested" windows 7 release can always be kept available for download if required, using an older set of libraries and as a 32bit version.
PPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSToolPPSTool
That is a very good point. ' StableTested' is a very good idea.
I thought win 7 updates ended years ago...so what win 7version you have won't have changed since then.
When I use win 10 I select metered network so it doesn't auto install updates...cos they break something.
Win security updates finish as stated Jan 2020.
Re Win 10. I hope you are then installing all the updates else you are increasing the risk to your computer and other computing devices.
I wait to see if there were problems with an update.
The idea of ms installing what it wants and no one cares what it is ,is strange.
I've just more or less retired Windows 2000 for good.
I'm still using Windows XP (32 bit and 64 bit) on occasion and I am still getting updates for XP's Microsoft Security Essentials (manual downloads from Microsoft's site). If you change the operating system identifier in the registry to the POS version, you can still get the normal MS security updates (the latest up[date was last month). The main reason I'm still using XP is that it takes far less memory, loads and runs faster - bear in mind I'm using Parallels VMs for Windows on a 2012 Apple Mac mini (16GB, 2.3GHz i7 quad core) running the current macOS.
For more recent programs that don't like XP, I generally use Windows 7 (minus the telemetry "update").
I did allow one Windows 7 VM to "upgrade" to Windows 10. I read about the excessive Microsoft "telemetry" so setup a proxy server on my FreeBSD server and watched the almost continuous stream of telemetry heading for Microsoft and what appeared to be non-Microsoft domains. I experimented with the various free and paid for programs that claimed to disable telemetry, but none stopped it dead. So, I enabled the Windows firewall with a default policy denying all connections in and out, and then selectively enabled individual programs. All the internet data still goes through the proxy (the FreeBSD firewall stops any data going direct)) and none of the telemetry appears. The only downside is the volume of entries in the event log from various things wanting to talk telemetry, though this doesn't seem to be causing any problem. So, I have a workable, non-spying Windows 10 VM which I use occasionally to test code.
Now for some statistics :)
According to https://netmarketshare.com (a service often quoted by Microsoft) Windows 10 usage as of March 2019 finally crept past Windows 7 - the shares as at 1 Marfch 2019 were claimed to be 10 - 39.22% and 7 - 36.9%. That is 3 years after Windows 10 launched and after those Windows 7 users survived the Micsosoft "forced upgrade" to Windows 10 (recall, for example, chossing to close the window \offering the upgrade was taken by Microsoft as consent to it happening). Unless something drastic happens in the next 8 mnths I think it safe to assume that there will still be a substantial number of users using Windows 7.
On the other hand, there is the volunteer time taken to QA programs on multiple operating system versions. Whether it could be sustained testing on two versions of Windows is not something I am in a position to answer. Whether the load could be spread by an additional volunteer/s is an open question I also cannot answer. Sometimes hard decsioons need to be taken.
Perhaps the next step should be to survey the current Great Cow BASIC users as to operating system versions and future intentions. At least then a decision could be made based on the best available information as to whether it is worth QAing more than one version of the operating system. After that, options could be considered.
I have to side with Trev 90% on this (it loses 10% because I don't use or trust Apple).
I still Use Win XP in VM's and Win 7 64 as my Primary system, locked down and Microsoft locked out, all security patches etc. I download and install manually.
Under no circumstances will I ever install Windows 10 Spyware, and as alternatives are not up for discussion, I will continue to use Win 7 exclusively for GCBASIC.
If GCBASIC ceases to support or run on Win7 then I will survive on the last release that does run and there after withdraw from the dev team. But I suspect GCBASIC and Win 7 has more life left in it than I do and will long outlast me so I will continue contributing where I can for as long as I can.
So lets start looking for a new, Simple, Functional and hopefully Portable IDE as our main priority and then as Peter says Test on both platforms for as long as dot.Net supports win7, and longer if the Dot.Net update only adds stuff that GCBASIC hs no need of (i.e. compile to the old and the new versions of dot.net where possible, because Microsoft WILL introduce a new dot.net version to deliberately break win 7 support for applications and force upgrades it is in their nature and business model).
Last edit: Chris Roper 2019-05-04
I'm in the same boat as others here, currently using Windows 7 and am in no hurry to replace it with something that spys on me constantly or breaks itself because it's decided to install some poorly tested update. I'll be sticking with 7 for as long as possible and will decide which way to go next year when support ends.
From past experience, we probably don't have too much to worry about. Newer versions of operating systems tend to introduce more restrictions, but if we don't do anything weird then we should be OK. Older operating systems sometimes lack APIs or libraries that newer compilers generate calls to, but as long as FreeBASIC can generate code for older versions of Windows, the core compiler will be fine.
The only issues I can recall having had with GCBASIC over the past 13 years were restrictions on accessing the Program Files directory in Vista and above, and having to add a line of config to GCGB to mark it as compatible with newer .NET frameworks (otherwise newer versions of Windows would insist on downloading .NET 1.1 or 2.0). Oh, and one person who was still using a 486 with Windows 95 and who asked for a special build of gcbasic.exe that was compiled for 486 rather than 586.
For Windows 7 and 8, you need to uninstall the following updates if they've been installed to remove the Microsoft telemetry:
Thanks Trev,
had both slipped through on my system, but no trace of the rest was found.
Both now removed.
As a Mac user...
I think that GCB development should be tested and built by the generous developers on their current OS. By which I mean, users should not expect the developers to change their Operating System to suit the users. If users want to use Windows 1.0 for the 8086 processor (oh yes, it did exist, came on 5 1/4", 360K disks too) for developing using GCB and find that it fails to work, perhaps it might be time that they became more active in developing (or actively assisting in developing) a version that does run on an 8086 processor.
Likewise, if the majority of the development team are using Windows 10 and GCB then fails to work in Windows 7, perhaps it is time for the users to move on also?
Users move on from win 7 cos gcb doesn't work...not a good enough reason.
win 7 is my favourite version from using win 3.1 (which was dos with gui!) through 95,98,xp.
When the free win 10 upgrades came out I upgraded an old laptop to dual boot win 10 and 7.
After a year or so a win 10 upgrade told me my win 7 wasn't a valid version...brill.
On another win 7 laptop, the laptop was under spec to run the win 10 upgrade.
The original post was support will end...so if gcb works,what can stop it after upgrades end?
ie what wlll change win 7 after no more updates?
The risk is not that Win7 stops working it is that New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC. That would then mean that GCBASIC would only run on that new DLL. The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.
We are fortunate that GCBASIC is not compiled by a Microsoft Compiler but we will have to hope that the compiler we use continues to support win 7 after microsoft cease support.
Last edit: Chris Roper 2019-05-06
The risk is not that Win7 stops working---why would it stop working?
New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC.---why?
The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.---do they do this by making dot.net obsolete?
>The risk is not that Win7 stops working---why would it stop working?
Exactly
>New Libraries / DLL's from Microsoft may inadvertently be used by the Compiler that is in turn used to compile GCBASIC.---why?
The GCBASIC compiler is written in a high level language and compiled to the target Operating System by a platform specific compiler for the target platform. The Windows version of the compiler makes Core Windows calls via a set of Microsoft Libraries called dot.net, the Linux and Apple versions compile to a compatible set of libraries called mono. dot.net and mono runtime libraries are supplied as dll files on the target operating systems.
>The most likely candidate would be the dot.net libraries that Microsoft has used in the past to render user apps obsolete.---do they do this by making dot.net obsolete?
They are constantly updating dot.net to add new features, fix bugs or patch security issues. If dot.net is updated on the device used to compile the GCBASIC Compiler for windows but is not updated on win 7 because it is end of life then GCBASIC will continue to work on newer versions of windows and on Linux/MacOS but no longer work on win7.
I hope that helps clarify the issue, it is a little confusing due to the complexity of application portability but maybe a cross platform developer could clarify further if needed.
.
Just a small correction. Apple does not require mono runtime libraries at all. Instead, compiling the native macOS GCBASIC compiler uses Apple's SDK frameworks which are generally backward compatible for the most part.
The GCBASIC compiler is written in a high level language and compiled to the target Operating System by a platform specific compiler for the target platform.
So.. an existing gcb would work on win 7 with the last ever update.?
Could gcb new version be compiled on a win 7 pc to keep it compatable and say it's legacy version for win 7?
all a bit complicated all this. It's hard enough working out how new software works.
I'm a Mac user and I run Windows 7 under Parallel, without sharing internet between OSX and Windows 7. Accordingly Windows should be safer. (I hope)
Following your discussion I would outline points already touched and motivate a choice (already suggested in the last post).
The end of life of Windows 7 means that future Great Cow Basic Users will not buy it. They will buy news Windows versions.
It does not means that the old Users will live Windows 7.
On the contrary, it appears clear that the old Users does not appreciate the new incoming Windows versions.
Similarly, it appears clear that it is unrealistic to think of inducing new Great Cow Basic Users to use a dead operating system.
On the other side, at this time, I believe that most of the users of Great Cow Basic use Windows 7.
And so, I understand the concern of the GCB developers about the end of life of Windows 7.
I. e. they would satisfy old Users and, at the same time, gain new Users .
Furthermore, this optimal result should be reached with the minimum effort.
As always, the solution resides in a compromise.
According to the last post by Stan, I think that there is only this choice: during a transition time the Great Cow Basic should be tested on both the operating systems, the one destined to be abandoned and the one destined to take over.
However, I do not know how much effort will be required and/or how long the transition period will last.
I think users use win 7 cos they like it. The win 10 upgrade is still free some where. I sownloaded a win 10 64 bit upgrade from ms somewhere. It works but is slower than the 32 bit version on a 64bit pc.
Some where I got the impression that parts of gcb were written using free basic...so where's that leave freebasic...on win 7?