Re: [GD-Design] gesturing

[Evan R. <ev...@en...>]

At 01:06 AM 2004.01.06, Brett Bibby wrote:
>Interesting post, and I certainly agree that the interface is elegant and 
>nice for some platforms. But given my context is consoles, isn't the 
>analog stick a perfect medium to use for a swing in golf on a PS2 or other 
>console? IIRC, Tiger Woods Golf PS2 does this now albeit it a rubbery 
>way.  It certainly is more intuitive and interactive and rewards players 
>with control.  However on a PC I wouldn't want to slide a mouse back and 
>then forward to swing; while more interactive and realistic that isn't a 
>natural motion and a digital interface would work better.  I don't think I 
>would even want to use a joystick (e.g. flightstick) either as that is 
>awkward too.  But the thumbstick is perfect.

I see your reasoning, but I have my doubts.  I'm not sure that transferring 
gross muscle movement into identical but micro muscle movement (converting 
the whole body golf swing into a thumb motion with the same path) is a good 
idea.

Obviously we don't want to require users to have some sort of golf-club 
controller that would require them to do a full golf swing.  Not only would 
that require a lot of room (especially overhead), it would limit good 
players to those who play golf well in the "real world", which would remove 
much of the fantasy element of gaming.

Given a good model of a golf shot, it seems to me that we require: aiming 
(which does not have to be in the swing control so we can ignore it); 
strength rating (analogous to the backswing click but having a lot to do 
with clubhead speed at impact); a clubface angle at impact indicator; a 
clubhead travel direction indicator (in-to-out or out-to-in or straight); 
and some edge conditions (topping the ball, hitting the turf before the 
ball, etc.).

Using the thumb to do a three-quarters circle clockwise followed by a 
one-and-a-half circle counter clockwise for a golf swing would have some 
real advantages (now that I think of a model): you get not only backswing 
distance as a judge of strength but also thumbspeed (analogous to club 
speed) at point of impact (6 on an analog clock of which a centered 
joystick is the center); you also could get clubhead direction by using 
some portion of the joystick positioning coming up to impact.  What I don't 
see a way to get is the clubhead angle (analogous to the hands turning over 
click in the conventional interface)...and in many ways that's the most 
"interesting" factor in the swing.

I'm certainly willing to admit that you might have something here.  As I 
said, Paul's interface was not and is not perfect.

My biggest concern with doing a thumbstick swing is balance.  You couldn't 
have a good swing be at the outer edge of travel because that would make it 
too easy and it would be impossible to miss the swing on both 
sides.  Putting the perfect swing somewhere inside the outer edge of travel 
would make it very hard to hit without a really good visual interface.

Hmmmm......How about this?

The visual interface puts a circle in the conventional swing plane 
(clubhead and shoulders define the plane) overlaying the player, with a 
circular indicator in the plane of a perfect swing.  The thumbstick is 
pushed down toward 6 and a dot representing the clubhead moves down until 
it (ideally) overlaps the clubhead.  Then a circular backswing motion is 
initiated, with the dot traveling as the stick moves.  The perfect circle 
matches a path in the overlay and can be missed either inside or 
outside.  Downswing happens the same way.  You get clubhead speed and 
direction of travel from the joystick positioning information.  Assume that 
an out-to-in swing means a closed clubface, and an in-to-out-swing means an 
open clubface (that's generically true, although a good golfer will alter 
the clubface at impact).

That leaves out altering the clubface angle at impact.  You could make the 
initial clubface angle part of the aiming (which is what golfers actually 
do) and use that delta as a delta on the assumed clubface angle at impact 
based upon direction of travel.

I think that does the basics.  And it has a number of advantages that you 
are absolutely right about, not the least of which is that the user can 
sacrifice clubhead speed for swing precision which almost exactly mirrors 
real life golf.

OK, you've sold me.  Code it up and let's see how it works :-)

I have concerns about balance, as I said, but upon further examination 
(much of it happening as I wrote this email), I think you're right.  Thanks 
for the mental kick in the pants.


>The point is that just because something works doesn't mean it's the best. 
>Instead it means the interface has converged on a solution in its local 
>problem space such that all similar solutions are inferior, when off in 
>the distance is another space or paradigm with even higher peaked (or 
>valleys is you perefer :) solutions.  Digital buttons beget analog gauges 
>and it seems silly to use a digital button to do what could be directly 
>controlled with tactile hand-eye coordination..
>
>Brett
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Evan Robinson" <ev...@en...>
>To: <gam...@li...>; 
><gam...@li...>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [GD-Design] gesturing
>
>
> > At 11:10 PM 2004.01.05, Brett Bibby wrote:
> > >Tom, I like the idea you proposed about the bars because you got it back
> > >to hand-eye coordination, but as you say FPS players may not like it.
> > >Perhaps it can be packaged in a different way. As Chris Crawford (it was
> > >him wasn't it?) pointed out in his design book that the basic golf
> > >interface hasn't changed in years, certainly there's something better 
> that
> > >can be done.
> >
> > There's a reason that golf interface hasn't change in years -- because 
> it's
> > good :-)  When we developed World Tour Golf for EA in ... 1985?, none of
> > the three of us had any golf experience.  So we took lessons, and the 
> basic
> > mechanic was actually described by our golf pro at the course in
> > Novato.  He pointed out that the basics of the golf swing are very simple:
> > alignment (which determines the basic direction of club head travel at the
> > moment of impact), backswing (and percentage of backswing relates to power
> > -- to hit half a wedge you backswing less than your normal full swing),
> > pause, downswing, turn the hands over (the timing of turning your hands
> > over is critical to hitting a straight shot, slicing or hooking the ball),
> > and follow through.  Paul Reiche parsed that into a pre-shot alignment
> > (deciding your initial direction of shot), a click to start the backswing,
> > a click to end the backswing and start the downswing (and set power), 
> and a
> > click to represent turning the hands over.  Paul was the first designer
> > that I know of to put this system onto a circular track that mirrored the
> > actual clubhead travel.
> >
> > Is this interface "realistic"?  Not particularly, in that it does not give
> > you nearly the level of control over the clubhead travel and therefore the
> > shot that a golfer has in real life.  In particular, it completely ignores
> > the factor of "in-to-out" or "out-to-in" clubhead travel (which allows a
> > golfer to start the ball traveling either to the right or left of the
> > alignment track, allowing for deliberate curving around obstacles).  Does
> > it relate directly to the motion of a golfer?  Not really.  In particular,
> > Paul chose to put the "hands turning over" click essentially at the point
> > of impact (it actually starts considerably further back in the downswing)
> > because it aligned nicely and gave better feedback to the user for a hook,
> > slice, or straight hit.  Does it feel "realistic"?  Damn Skippy, it
> > does.  If you provided a speed control that varied the clubhead travel 
> (and
> > thus the amount of time the player had to make decisions, effectively
> > increasing player precision at low speed and decreasing it at high speed),
> > you'd have a huge play balance variation, without changing the mechanic or
> > the complexity of the system at all.
> >
> > If you compare Paul's design to that of previous golf games -- in
> > particular Henry's design in ... was it Pebble Beach Championship Golf? A
> > game produce with Brian Fargo, IIRC -- Henry's design was very "sim-like"
> > in that it gave a huge degree of control through various keystrokes and
> > settings, and used a model of Ben Hogan for animation, and it didn't feel
> > nearly as much like swinging a golf club.  Activision's game (Links?) used
> > a very similar system to Pauls, but it was modelled on a straight line
> > (like a progress bar) instead of the clubhead-travel circle.  IIRC, the
> > original Nintendo golf game on the 8 bit console was similar.
> >
> > I'm not trying to say that Paul's design was or is perfect, but I am 
> saying
> > that it was at conception and remains an excellent design, and the fact
> > that no one has come up with a better one (at least according to Brett's
> > recollection of Chris Crawford's comment) suggests that there's more to it
> > than just simplicity -- there's also elegance.  Which is hard to beat.
> >
> >          Evan
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Evan Robinson            <http://www.enginesofmischief.com/makers/evan/>
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