gamedevlists-windows

RE: [GD-Windows] DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

(1) This is an ideal question for the DX list:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 FAQ: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/techart/DirectX8faq.htm
 Web Interface: http://DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM/archives/DIRECTXDEV.html
 Problems/Suggestions: DIR...@di...
 Use the Web Interface (above) to unsubscribe from the list.
 Use plain-text only. HTML is not accepted. Attachments are removed
 MSDN DirectX Developer Centre:  http://msdn.microsoft.com/DirectX
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

For a start, nVidia people hang out on that list and are more than happy to
answer these sorts of questions.


(2) Note that a fast CPU (e.g. 1.5GHz or above) can beat the GF3 moderately
easily in raw vertex-processing speed. In a real game, you probably still
want to use hardware VS - the CPU usually has some other things to do
instead. But in terms of raw speed - CPUs are currently faster (a Radeon8500
on the other hand will happily beat the CPU in any benchmark I've thrown at
it - I'm rather impressed).


(3) Remember that the usage rules for buffers are pretty detailed. You need
to be using a DISCARD/NOOVERWRITE scheme, or things are going to go very
slowly. Also note that reading from AGP VBs is _seriously_ bad, and that not
writing the whole of the AGP buffer can also be slow (the write-combining
only works if you overwrite whole 64-bit chunks, IIRC - if you just update a
single DWORD then it all goes slowly). So this may explain your massive drop
when doing processing yourself.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke.

What's he up to now (and can I have a go)?
http://www.eidosinteractive.com/downloads/search.html?gmid=86

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vek [mailto:ve...@ho...]
> Sent: 23 September 2001 06:35
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Windows] DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff
> 
> 
> I guess this is the best place to ask this - since DX is 
> windows specific...
> and its not really about Algos or such.
> 
> I recently got ahold of Geforce3 hardware to test my vertex 
> shaders / pixel
> shaders in, on my Game Engine.
> To my surprise though, simply flipping the engine into 
> 'hardware vertex
> processing mode' cut my framerate to about 50% of what it is 
> in software
> vertex processing mode.  This is when dumping raw vertices to 
> the card to
> transform and light and render via a vertex shader... using 
> vertex index
> buffer and vertex buffers... no pixel shaders involved.
> 
> It also drops to 5% of what it is in software 
> vertexprocessing mode if I
> additionally mess with those vertexes (Transforming them by my program
> manually instead of by a vertex shader).   Are there AGP specifics I'm
> missing out on?  Or some situations which I'm not aware of?  
> I'm setting the
> device up almost exactly like the NV demos, etc... except those go at
> several hundred frames a second in the same situations.
> 
> I would have thought that hardware vertex processing would be 
> the same speed
> or faster... not 5% as fast.  500 polygons are enough to bring it to a
> crawl.
> 
> If I can't mangle this soon, I'll take the renderer code out 
> and place it
> into a nice 'clean room' to mess with it, and find out whats 
> going on by
> brute force ;) But I was hoping someone out there already ran 
> into this.
> -Nick Lawson
> ve...@ho...
> project: http://members.home.net/vektuz/gw2k
> 
> hooray.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
> 

RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Vek <ve...@ho...>]

Hi there.

Since this isn't really the place for this, I'm requesting that this is the
last post in this thread. Thanks for the great answers, guys.  I'll post
this postmortem just in case someone else is getting the same problem.
Perhaps its useful to someone :)

I've moved on over to the DX newsgroups and mailing lists so as not to
clutter this newsgroup.  The answers recieved so far were helpful, and I'm
suspecting that the answer that the CPU might be beating the video card is
the case.  Its a 2 ghz CPU... The Lock() parameters, AGP business and others
factors are straightforward and already checked for problems.  There was ONE
case of 'read-from-agp' that was solved and gave back most of the speed, but
it's never quite gone over the speed of the software vertex processing, and
it drops of really sharply when there's many polys.  I'll keep a lookout
(And ask around) but go on the assumption that on less powerful CPU's the
GPU might pull a bit more weight.  ... and of course, give users the option
to force software....

Thanks again!

-Nick
ve...@ho...

RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Marcin W. <Ma...@zo...>]

I don't get this... this is a win32 dev list and directx question might be
considered a win32 question and yet people are getting so offended by the
post.

Its not like this dev list is swamped with posts about other topics.  Maybe
someone should make a list of valid discussing topics on this list (I'm
kidding if you haven't noticed.)

I've noticed this trend going on around all of the Sweng dev list and its
getting to a point where people can't even ask a question anymore without
someone replying how they don't like this post on the list.  Come on..
Anyway, just my 2 cents...

(maybe I should have posted this on the General list ;))

Marcin

PS. In my opinion this thread was a valid topic on win32 issue.


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Vek
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 11:31 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex
Processing Stuff


Hi there.

Since this isn't really the place for this, I'm requesting that this is the
last post in this thread. Thanks for the great answers, guys.  I'll post
this postmortem just in case someone else is getting the same problem.
Perhaps its useful to someone :)

I've moved on over to the DX newsgroups and mailing lists so as not to
clutter this newsgroup.  The answers recieved so far were helpful, and I'm
suspecting that the answer that the CPU might be beating the video card is
the case.  Its a 2 ghz CPU... The Lock() parameters, AGP business and others
factors are straightforward and already checked for problems.  There was ONE
case of 'read-from-agp' that was solved and gave back most of the speed, but
it's never quite gone over the speed of the software vertex processing, and
it drops of really sharply when there's many polys.  I'll keep a lookout
(And ask around) but go on the assumption that on less powerful CPU's the
GPU might pull a bit more weight.  ... and of course, give users the option
to force software....

Thanks again!

-Nick
ve...@ho...


_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows

RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Dirk R. <ri...@ph...>]

The reason is very simple: there is the dx list, which is the very best dx
programming resource around the net. Why pull traffic from the dx list to
this one, when all the knowledge and microsoft and ihv people are already on
the other list? I expect most game developers to be subscribed to all
relevant lists, and i expect this list here as a rather low traffic one,
focusing on special subjects not covered (and not allowed) elsewere.

Greets,

 Dirk

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Marcin Wieczorek
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:46 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex
Processing Stuff


I don't get this... this is a win32 dev list and directx question might be
considered a win32 question and yet people are getting so offended by the
post.

Its not like this dev list is swamped with posts about other topics.  Maybe
someone should make a list of valid discussing topics on this list (I'm
kidding if you haven't noticed.)

I've noticed this trend going on around all of the Sweng dev list and its
getting to a point where people can't even ask a question anymore without
someone replying how they don't like this post on the list.  Come on..
Anyway, just my 2 cents...

(maybe I should have posted this on the General list ;))

Marcin

PS. In my opinion this thread was a valid topic on win32 issue.


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Vek
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 11:31 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex
Processing Stuff


Hi there.

Since this isn't really the place for this, I'm requesting that this is the
last post in this thread. Thanks for the great answers, guys.  I'll post
this postmortem just in case someone else is getting the same problem.
Perhaps its useful to someone :)

I've moved on over to the DX newsgroups and mailing lists so as not to
clutter this newsgroup.  The answers recieved so far were helpful, and I'm
suspecting that the answer that the CPU might be beating the video card is
the case.  Its a 2 ghz CPU... The Lock() parameters, AGP business and others
factors are straightforward and already checked for problems.  There was ONE
case of 'read-from-agp' that was solved and gave back most of the speed, but
it's never quite gone over the speed of the software vertex processing, and
it drops of really sharply when there's many polys.  I'll keep a lookout
(And ask around) but go on the assumption that on less powerful CPU's the
GPU might pull a bit more weight.  ... and of course, give users the option
to force software....

Thanks again!

-Nick
ve...@ho...


_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows



_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows

RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Vek <ve...@ho...>]

Hey...

So many more posts on whether the list is acceptable or not, than actaul
content... drat  I'm sorry for starting this.
Basically, I've moved on to the DX list now... I did search for such a list
on Google, etc before, and didn't turn one up... only dead links or company
owned lists.  Now that the DX mailing list's address was posted here, it's
been a boon.  Thank you for posting the link!  As far as I'm concerened,
the -best- response to an offtopic post is a followup saying, your post is
off topic, but here is where to go for it to be on topic.  It does the
greatest good.  More arguments are just a waste. :)

Anyways, thank y'all.  And sorry for the problems.

-Nick Lawson
nl...@ho...

Re: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Evil K. <evi...@ho...>]

can anyone here actually hear themselves? you lot are so concerned with
telling people what is right and wrong to post on this list, you're using
more bandwidth than his original post, get a grip, shut the fuck up, we dont
NEED people to sit around and moderate the list, just take a simple, if it's
offtopic, dont respond attitude, that email will get a few replies from
people who dont take notice of this, but in general, a simple, this email is
offtopic, take it to <insert list name> should do it

STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!!! it's causing a bigger problem than his original off
topic post

jees, talk about beauracracy (hmmm bad spelling) but perhaps people in here
like red tape?

kosh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vek" <ve...@ho...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:53 AM
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex
Processing Stuff


> Hey...
>
> So many more posts on whether the list is acceptable or not, than actaul
> content... drat  I'm sorry for starting this.
> Basically, I've moved on to the DX list now... I did search for such a
list
> on Google, etc before, and didn't turn one up... only dead links or
company
> owned lists.  Now that the DX mailing list's address was posted here, it's
> been a boon.  Thank you for posting the link!  As far as I'm concerened,
> the -best- response to an offtopic post is a followup saying, your post is
> off topic, but here is where to go for it to be on topic.  It does the
> greatest good.  More arguments are just a waste. :)
>
> Anyways, thank y'all.  And sorry for the problems.
>
> -Nick Lawson
> nl...@ho...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-windows mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows
>

Re: [GD-Windows] List Stuff

[Evil K. <evi...@ho...>]

Hi tom

> I don't care about bandwidth. I care about this list and the others
> providing a good service to the people that subscribe to them.

I do care about bandwidth, plus I was more interested in hearing people talk
about why we are hear and not discussing stuff people here should already
know.  Hence my "wake up email"....

> >  get a grip, shut the fuck up, we dont
> >NEED people to sit around and moderate the list,
>
> If you keep posting crap like this comment you'll find yourself moderated
> (not the whole list .. just you). This is your only warning. Find other
> ways of expressing yourself.

Well I'd like to say if you're planning on threatening someone, do a good
job of it, because your threat it pretty worthless, so what if I get thrown
off this list? Do you think I'm going to cry? I doubt it.  Think before you
act, throwing worthless threats at people who have a greivance isnt going to
get you anywhere, not that I care what you think and I should think and hope
you dont care what I think either.

> >  just take a simple, if it's
> >offtopic, dont respond attitude, that email will get a few replies from
> >people who dont take notice of this, but in general, a simple, this email
is
> >offtopic, take it to <insert list name> should do it
>
> Actually, if you look back to my original post and the original thread,
> you'll see that's exactly what happened.

Thats great and then more emails came with the same message.

> >STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!!! it's causing a bigger problem than his original
off
> >topic post
>
> You realize that the post you just replied to was calling for the thread
to
> be closed by the person who started it? That there was absolutely no need
> for you to reply except maybe for you to hear yourself talk and to insult
> others?

No, my need to reply was to bring an end to the pointless discussion of the
rules of mailing lists, people here came from other mailing lists, so they
know the rules from being there first, if this was a list full of people who
were computer illiterate perhaps it would be tolerable for discussion like
this, but I think it wasnt and I made myself pretty dammed clear I think

> You have crossed the line and made an ass out of yourself. I expect you to
> apologize to the list for what you've done.

Dont hold your breath, and no, I didnt make an ass of myself, you see, to do
that, I would have to give a shit what anyone here actually thinks about me,
because if I dont(and fyi, I dont), you're opinion doesnt count, so this
comment has relatively little value.....

> Don't reply to me to defend your actions. Continue to insult me on or off
> the list (imagine someone telling the list admin to shut the fuck up ...
> what the heck are you thinking???) and you'll find yourself moderated on
> _all_ the lists I run.

As if I would waste my valuable time talking to you or emailing you in
person, I dont give a fuck about you, from what I've read so far, you're a
fucking wanker.  But if you need telling, you can count on me to tell you,
and for your
information, I wasnt talking to you in specifics, I was talking in general.

So, if you want to take me from the list, do so, hell, in fact, I couldnt
care less whether you did or not, dont expect me to apologise to you, who do
you think you are anyway, your just some dickhead with an list
server, whoopy doo, plenty of people like you around, running lists just
like
this one (and most probably better). So go fuck yourself tom, I mean, think
about it this way, if you
dont, who will?

kosh

RE: [GD-Windows] (closing) DirectX Pure Device / HW Vertex Processing Stuff

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

At 12:38 PM 9/24/2001, you wrote:
>The reason is very simple: there is the dx list, which is the very best dx
>programming resource around the net. Why pull traffic from the dx list to
>this one, when all the knowledge and microsoft and ihv people are already on
>the other list? I expect most game developers to be subscribed to all
>relevant lists, and i expect this list here as a rather low traffic one,
>focusing on special subjects not covered (and not allowed) elsewere.

This is exactly the reason. It's obviously not a bandwidth or traffic issue 
(yet), it's simply that the DX list is the "right" place to be asking these 
questions. That's where all the experts are, and where the driver writers 
and DX team hang out. It doesn't make sense for them to split their efforts 
between two lists.

In the past the DX admins have been pretty forceful about keeping OT 
traffic on that list to a minimum, and general windows programming 
questions have been considered OT even if they related to games (WinSock, 
Threads, Registry, File Mapping, etc). If this is no longer the case then 
I'll gladly shut down this list and have everyone post this stuff on the DX 
list.

I don't think we (the admins) are going to be anal about DX posts, but 
we're going to update the charter to be more clear about this, and from 
time to time suggest people take DX questions to the DX list because they 
are better served there.

Tom