Thread: [GD-Windows] Omega Drivers? (shudder)
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From: Jon W. <hp...@mi...> - 2003-06-16 19:25:17
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We've recently noticed that there's a brand of hacked-up graphics=20 drivers known as "Omega Drivers" (from omegacorner.com) which are=20 regular vendor drivers, hacked up to "make them better". Well, they don't. In fact, they cause textures in our product to=20 come up black. What's worse: once installed, even an uninstall and=20 clean vendor driver install won't cure the problem; you have to=20 format and reinstall Windows, or use a safe-mode-only special=20 utility to clean out the problem. Our customers aren't entirely happy about this situation, and=20 neither are we. Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about what to=20 do here? I'd be happy if I just knew how to detect that this=20 problem is happening on the machine... Cheers, / h+ -- I am speaking only in the capacity of myself and am=20 not representing any company or organization. Jon Watte - http://www.there.com/ "Q: Why did the chicken cross the Moebius Strip? A: To get to the same side." |
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From: Tom H. <to...@ve...> - 2003-06-16 21:42:12
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At 12:23 PM 6/16/2003, you wrote: >Our customers aren't entirely happy about this situation, Then they shouldn't be installing crap like this. I mean really, if someone is stupid enough to install hacked up drivers from a site like that, then they deserve what they get. > and >neither are we. Understandable, but I think the best you can do is offer your condolences tell them what you've learned must be done to rid themselves of the mess they've put themselves in, and send them on their way. > Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about what to >do here? I'd be happy if I just knew how to detect that this >problem is happening on the machine... There's probably a way to do it by comparing modification dates and file sizes to version numbers or something. As for removal .. you should be able to set the machine to the default VGA driver .. then delete all the offending files (though it might take a bit of searching to get all the copies, INF files, etc). I suspect the best you could do is figure out a set of instructions for removal then email/fax that to customers who install the mess. Hopefully it won't be that common. You should also contact ATI/NVIDIA and bring the site to their attention. Also, I would contact the site itself and let them know that their modifications are broken and cause problems in your game and that customers are having problems removing their drivers and getting back to the ATI/NVIDIA ones. If they're really intending on helping people, then they'd probably take these things to heart and try to resolve them. Tom |
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From: Jon W. <hp...@mi...> - 2003-06-16 22:23:34
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> >Our customers aren't entirely happy about this situation, >=20 > Then they shouldn't be installing crap like this. I mean really,=20 > if someone=20 > is stupid enough to install hacked up drivers from a site like that, = then=20 > they deserve what they get. Would you say that if your customer support spent their evenings=20 fielding support calls related to this issue? It's apparently the=20 l33t in thing to do among all the top gamers these days. I wouldn't install these. You wouldn't. But alienating people who=20 don't know as well as you or me doesn't feel like great business=20 to me. Thus, I'm looking for a better solution. Extreme end: help=20 the guy fix his drivers so they don't break our app ;-) Hopefully=20 we won't have to do that. > Understandable, but I think the best you can do is offer your = condolences=20 > tell them what you've learned must be done to rid themselves of the = mess=20 > they've put themselves in, and send them on their way. Doing that on the phone, with a high loaded cost per call, is not=20 ideal. I'd be happy with an automated way of detecting that this problem=20 has happened, and re-directing to a web site, and prevent=20 installation of the product until the problem is fixed. We already=20 do that for other un-supported configurations, such as Voodoo3=20 cards, and we're getting pretty good at managing that. > Hopefully it won't be that common. The reason I'm posting is that we're actually seeing a surprising=20 number of them. Has anyone else seen this? Are you, generally, in=20 close contact with the customer service/support people, or is that=20 something which you pawn off on the publisher, who in turn pawns it=20 off on a third-party contract call center somewhere, and issues=20 never make it back to engineering? I can see the appeal in that :-) Cheers, / h+ |
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From: Tom H. <to...@ve...> - 2003-06-16 23:21:24
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At 03:22 PM 6/16/2003, you wrote: >Would you say that if your customer support spent their evenings >fielding support calls related to this issue? It's apparently the >l33t in thing to do among all the top gamers these days. I originally wrote a long tirade about how I hate that segment of the gamer community .. but decided it wasn't worth it ;) >I wouldn't install these. You wouldn't. But alienating people who >don't know as well as you or me doesn't feel like great business >to me. There's limits to how far you have to go to deal with this kind of stuff, and I'd certainly treat it on a case by case basis. But really .. there's already enough driver specific issues out there that things like this just make things a living hell for the developer. Sadly, this has been going on for ages and will continue to happen. > Thus, I'm looking for a better solution. Extreme end: help >the guy fix his drivers so they don't break our app ;-) Hopefully >we won't have to do that. Just let him know that things are screwed up. Maybe send him a copy of your game (demo?) for testing. >Doing that on the phone, with a high loaded cost per call, is not >ideal. Agreed. >I'd be happy with an automated way of detecting that this problem >has happened, and re-directing to a web site, and prevent >installation of the product until the problem is fixed. We already >do that for other un-supported configurations, such as Voodoo3 >cards, and we're getting pretty good at managing that. You could look for specific CRCs of the installed drivers, or compare file modification dates with known version numbers for the drivers. You should probably contact the Omega guy and see what (if any) info he can provide to find out how to detect that his modified drivers are running, and what versions are in use. If they really appear as NVIDIA drivers, then I'm surprised that NVIDIA is going after him with both legal barrels blaring. Maybe if he isn't doing anything like this now, you can convince him to do it in the future. Also ... I'd spend a great deal of time trying to educate the public through your own web site, and places like Voodoo Extreme, Blues News, etc about the hazards of installing these kinds of drivers. Not only to try to keep the end users from installing them, but also to explain the pain it puts developers through trying to deal with the support headaches the crappy things end up causing. I suspect you could probably get the various sites to run an article or two about it. The hope would be that the number of people that make these things might be reduced. Tom |
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From: Jon W. <hp...@mi...> - 2003-06-16 23:45:14
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> You should probably contact the Omega guy and see what (if any)=20 > info he can=20 > provide to find out how to detect that his modified drivers are = running,=20 So here's the problem with these drivers: We can detect whether the last installed drivers are the Omega drivers. However, when the user "reverts" to original drivers, by installing on=20 top of the drivers, every measure that we've taken to detect what = drivers=20 we're running on show "factory" drivers. However, the bad behavior = (black=20 textures) still shows up. Something's gotten hosed somewhere in the=20 system (bets are: registry :-) and isn't getting un-hosed by installing=20 regular drivers. Let's see if the Omega guy is talkative; I have a feeler out. Cheers, / h+ |
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From: Tom H. <to...@ve...> - 2003-06-17 00:10:51
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At 04:43 PM 6/16/2003, you wrote: >Let's see if the Omega guy is talkative; I have a feeler out. It certainly sounds an awful lot like there's something changed in the registry / settings for the card. I'd bug the guy and see if you can find out what registry settings are being dorked with. This might end up being a simple fix where you have the end-user un-dork one setting in the registry or delete a config file somewhere. You _might_ even be able to get NVIDIA dev support to help you find out what he's tweaking and help you figure out what needs to be done to repair it. And .. if you can figure it out, you might try to detect that on install or execution and ask the user if they want to fix it automatically ;) Tom |
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From: Jon W. <hp...@mi...> - 2003-06-17 00:23:42
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> And .. if you can figure it out, you might try to detect that on=20 > install or=20 > execution and ask the user if they want to fix it automatically ;) Yes, that's the general gist of it. We already do this for common=20 problems like old Internet Explorer versions, missing codecs,=20 missing AGP chipset drivers, graphics driver versions with known=20 bugs, etc. Cheers, / h+ |
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From: Neil S. <ne...@r0...> - 2003-06-17 00:42:05
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If the problem really is just a case of the official drivers not cleaning up enough to make a revert to (or reinstall of) them work properly, then it would be good to give the IHVs a chance to fix this problem. It would give the old "install the latest drivers" line a well-needed boost. ;) Of course, you might still want to detect the situation so you can give the user a clue what to try before he calls support. - Neil. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Watte" <hp...@mi...> To: <gam...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:43 AM Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Omega Drivers? (shudder) > You should probably contact the Omega guy and see what (if any) > info he can > provide to find out how to detect that his modified drivers are running, So here's the problem with these drivers: We can detect whether the last installed drivers are the Omega drivers. However, when the user "reverts" to original drivers, by installing on top of the drivers, every measure that we've taken to detect what drivers we're running on show "factory" drivers. However, the bad behavior (black textures) still shows up. Something's gotten hosed somewhere in the system (bets are: registry :-) and isn't getting un-hosed by installing regular drivers. Let's see if the Omega guy is talkative; I have a feeler out. Cheers, / h+ ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers & Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-windows mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-windows Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU5 |
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From: Neil S. <ne...@r0...> - 2003-06-16 23:30:26
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I expect drivers must be signed in some way, even if they are not WHQL
certified. If they are signed by NVIDIA, ATI, etc., then there might be some
way to check that the certificate is valid. I don't know if this is easy or
even possible, but it might be the only reliable way of being certain you
are dealing with official drivers.
If there is no current way to do it, it might be possible to get the IHVs to
provide something in the future, especially if they also perceive this as a
serious problem that needs to be solved.
Pretty much any other method is going to be useless, as it will depend on
information that these 'alternative driver teams' can spoof easily.
The only other thing I can think of is to perform a set of correctness tests
at the start of the app (or during a 'safe mode' startup of the app) to
check that everything is working as expected. The problems with this are:
a) the tests are not guaranteed to find stuff that actually goes wrong in
the game (unless your game *is* the test)
b) some official drivers may fail the tests but otherwise be OK
c) user driver options such as texture performance will make the tests hard
to measure
d) the 'alternative' drivers may pass the tests and may even work fine in
your game.
Although (d) could be seen as a non-issue ("if they work, then what's the
problem?"), there are also cheating issues such as wireframe mode for FPS
games which these people may see fit to include, even though the IHVs have a
self-imposed ban on such things.
- Neil.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Watte" <hp...@mi...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: [GD-Windows] Omega Drivers? (shudder)
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From: Jon W. <hp...@mi...> - 2003-06-16 23:45:15
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> The only other thing I can think of is to perform a set of=20
> correctness tests
> at the start of the app (or during a 'safe mode' startup of the app) =
to
This is actually not a bad problem, if the bug is consistent (i e=20
happens with specific textures, texture formats, or something to=20
that effect). If it's one of those random wild pointer type bugs=20
I'd be out of luck, but this is worth investigating.
> Although (d) could be seen as a non-issue ("if they work, then what's =
the
> problem?"), there are also cheating issues such as wireframe mode for =
FPS
The only things that matter in our product are made server-side=20
authoritative, so we luckily don't have that problem.
Cheers,
/ h+
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