gamedevlists-general

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[George W. <ge...@ap...>]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:24:13 +0100, "Crosbie Fitch"
<cr...@cy...> wrote:
> You say the artist would be better served working on commission for business
> companies. All I'm exploring is the same thing, but with the company
> disintermediated. So, instead of accepting a commission from one business
> company, you accept one from all or any of your audience (which may well
> include several business companies that might outbid other members of your
> audience). The difference is though, that instead of the company asserting
> their copyright over the work, it is neutralised such that anyone who
> receives it is free to use it as they wish (a la GPL).

So why should a company spend money on a commission when instead they could
just wait and get it for free?
-- 
Enjoy,
George Warner,
Schizophrenic Optimization Scientist
Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS)

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

> From: George Warner
> So why should a company spend money on a commission when 
> instead they could just wait and get it for free?

For the same reason the people most interested in specific GPL software
(enhancements, bug fixes, etc.) don't wait for it to be eventually released
when more people are more interested. Believe it or not, but big businesses
do commission the development of GPL software (rather than wait for someone
else to do it and get it for free).

In a digital art auction, if you need something sooner rather than later you
can say how much it's worth to you sooner, even if it's just a penny. If you
don't need it sooner and it isn't even worth a penny to you, then yes, wait
and get it for free.

Bear in mind though, an artist isn't going to part with their hard labour if
the compensation isn't equitable. So, as in any market, if there's no demand
for your work (sooner rather than later), you won't necessarily be able to
sell it at the price you'd like (so keep it under wraps until the market's
right).

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Bob <ma...@mb...>]

> Bear in mind though, an artist isn't going to part with their hard labour 
> if
> the compensation isn't equitable. So, as in any market, if there's no 
> demand
> for your work (sooner rather than later), you won't necessarily be able to
> sell it at the price you'd like (so keep it under wraps until the market's
> right).


In those pages you linked before there are a lot of fantasy scenarios,. I 
won't bother point out the silliness of them all, but one in particular was 
Herbert Spencer's hospital bed, unwanted by manufacturers because of the 
lack of Patent. The essay argued that without the existence of Patents in 
the first place, Spencer's bed design would not have been at a disadvantage.

That works the other way, not just for the benefit of the publishers or 
manufacturers, but for the public. For the very reason you lay out above --  
Copyright allows an author to sell, or license, many copies of an 
easily-duplicated property to individuals for a very small price, accruing a 
fair return on his or her labour eventually. Whereas, if everything rests on 
one sale at a price equivalent to the time and effort involved, the market 
may very well never be "ready." Especially when the subject is something 
like 3D art, where the skill and time involved in production is often 
reduced significantly in a relatively short period of time, and the 
usefulness of the model may evaporate completely due to a change in favoured 
technology.


--bob 

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

> From: Bob
> Copyright allows an author to sell, or license, many copies of an 
> easily-duplicated property to individuals for a very small 
> price

There have been people making good arguments against copyright long before
me, but the fact that it is unethical and unnatural is beside the point.

If you feel that copyright is going to continue to be viable given the
natural mechanics of the digital domain, then sure, stick with it.

Because of my research I now recognise it as unethical and so I can never
countenance going back to it, but we can leave ethical considerations as a
personal choice - whilst such unethical legislation still stands.

It is not too difficult to understand the mechanism of copyright (despite
its unethical suspension of the public's liberty), but it is not viable in
an environment in which diffusion of digital works cannot be controlled.

Either those people who are beginning to operate and develop non-copyright
based business models are living in a fantasy world and can be ignored as
passengers on the B Ark, or they are simply evidence that human beings are
incredibly adaptable to change (the change in copyright's effectiveness).

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Bob <ma...@mb...>]

> Because of my research I now recognise it as unethical and so I can never
> countenance going back to it, but we can leave ethical considerations as a
> personal choice - whilst such unethical legislation still stands.

I defy that claim. How is Copyright fundamentally unethical?

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[George W. <ge...@ap...>]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 18:01:24 +0100, "Crosbie Fitch"
<cr...@cy...> wrote:

>> From: George Warner
>> So why should a company spend money on a commission when
>> instead they could just wait and get it for free?
>
> For the same reason the people most interested in specific GPL software
> (enhancements, bug fixes, etc.) don't wait for it to be eventually released
> when more people are more interested. Believe it or not, but big businesses
> do commission the development of GPL software (rather than wait for someone
> else to do it and get it for free).

Ok, so why should a company spend money on a commission for something that
their competition will then get for free?

(note: devil's advacote; I'm anti-DRM... ;-)
-- 
Enjoy,
George Warner,
Schizophrenic Optimization Scientist
Apple Developer Technical Support (DTS)

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Jon W. <hp...@mi...>]

George Warner wrote:
> (note: devil's advacote; I'm anti-DRM... ;-)
>   


DRM and copyright are very different. I am pro copyright, but anti DRM, 
because the vast majority of DRM prevents fair use, while not being a 
deterrent for copyright violation.

Sincerely,

jw

[GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Pierre T. <pie...@gr...>]

(Posted here while I'm waiting for the DXML to confirm my subscription)

Hi,

I have a problem with DirectInput in the August 2007 SDK. A good repro case 
exists in the SDK's samples, just run:

Microsoft DirectX SDK (August 
2007)\Samples\C++\DirectInput\Bin\x86\Keyboard.exe

Create an exclusive, foreground, immediate device.

Now, press W and D at the same time, as if you were moving forward/right in 
a game. Then, while still pressing W and D, press space for a jump. The key 
is correctly detected (Data 0x11 0x20 0x39).

Now however, press S and D at the same time, to move backward/right (Data 
0x1f 0x20). Then press space. The key is not detected, and player can't jump 
while moving backward/right (which is exactly how I found the issue).

Do you see the same thing?
Is that "normal" behaviour? (??)
Any way to fix this?

Thanks for any help....

- Pierre 

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Alen L. <ale...@cr...>]

Nope, works correctly for me (though I tested this on April 2006 SDK -
don't ask, that's what I had handy :) ). I'd say you should try with a
different keyboard, perhaps you have a ghosting problem in the
hardware.

On another note, I've never used DirectInput for keyboard or
mouse. IME, I've had more robust results and a simpler solution by
intercepting the keyboard/mouse events (WH_GETMESSAGE, WH_CALLWNDPROC
- both need to be checked at the same time) directly for keypresses
and GetCursorPos() for mouse position.

HTH,
Alen

Pierre wrote:

> (Posted here while I'm waiting for the DXML to confirm my subscription)

> Hi,

> I have a problem with DirectInput in the August 2007 SDK. A good repro case
> exists in the SDK's samples, just run:

> Microsoft DirectX SDK (August 
> 2007)\Samples\C++\DirectInput\Bin\x86\Keyboard.exe

> Create an exclusive, foreground, immediate device.

> Now, press W and D at the same time, as if you were moving forward/right in
> a game. Then, while still pressing W and D, press space for a jump. The key
> is correctly detected (Data 0x11 0x20 0x39).

> Now however, press S and D at the same time, to move backward/right (Data
> 0x1f 0x20). Then press space. The key is not detected, and player can't jump
> while moving backward/right (which is exactly how I found the issue).

> Do you see the same thing?
> Is that "normal" behaviour? (??)
> Any way to fix this?

> Thanks for any help....

> - Pierre 


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-- 
Alen

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Alen L. <ale...@cr...>]

Perhaps an obvious suggestion, but have you tried those same keyboards
with same key bindings in other games?

Pierre wrote:

>> Same problem with different keyboards in the office and at home. Hmm. Will
>> try with other ones if I can.

> Ok, found a USB keyboard where the bug doesn't appear .... Hell ! 


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-- 
Alen

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Pierre T. <pie...@gr...>]

> But for the key combos that Pierre describes, I'd be suspicious. A lot
> of games use those, and most modern keyboards allow those three
> presses. Finding one keyboard that doesn't is quite possible, but if
> it happens to several different models, it's either really bad luck or
> something else in the system or software. I'd definitely do a cross
> check with other games and on different machines.

I think it's just bad luck. It happens with my 2 french keyboards (different 
models but both AZERTY), and not just in my game. I tried yesterday evening: 
same issue with Oni, Max Payne 2, etc, all the games I tried.

So.... well... not much I can do, I close that bug.

Thanks anyway, this one was quite interesting.

- Pierre 

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Pierre T. <pie...@gr...>]

> I'd say you should try with a
> different keyboard, perhaps you have a ghosting problem in the
> hardware.

Same problem with different keyboards in the office and at home. Hmm. Will 
try with other ones if I can.

> On another note, I've never used DirectInput for keyboard or
> mouse. IME, I've had more robust results and a simpler solution by
> intercepting the keyboard/mouse events (WH_GETMESSAGE, WH_CALLWNDPROC
> - both need to be checked at the same time) directly for keypresses
> and GetCursorPos() for mouse position.

Hmmm, why not WH_KEYBOARD or WH_KEYBOARD_LL ?

I tried WH_KEYBOARD but it has the same problem as DI anyway. Sigh.

- Pierre 

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Pierre T. <pie...@gr...>]

> Same problem with different keyboards in the office and at home. Hmm. Will
> try with other ones if I can.

Ok, found a USB keyboard where the bug doesn't appear .... Hell ! 

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Xavier B. <xav...@fr...>]

Alen Ladavac a écrit :
> Perhaps an obvious suggestion, but have you tried those same keyboards
> with same key bindings in other games?
> 

I have encountered the same problem as well on some (many?) keyboards,
with the four arrow keys not being detected when pressed at the same time.

I think it has to do with the wiring or the microcontroller inside some 
keyboards that groups keys by 4, but I can't find a link anymore.

(and I don't know of any workaround.)

xavier.

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Alen L. <ale...@cr...>]

Xavier wrote:
> I have encountered the same problem as well on some (many?) keyboards,
> with the four arrow keys not being detected when pressed at the same time.

> I think it has to do with the wiring or the microcontroller inside some
> keyboards that groups keys by 4, but I can't find a link anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key)

> (and I don't know of any workaround.)

The workaround is either to buy a better keyboard, or to bind keys in
different positions so this doesn't happen. <shrug/>

But for the key combos that Pierre describes, I'd be suspicious. A lot
of games use those, and most modern keyboards allow those three
presses. Finding one keyboard that doesn't is quite possible, but if
it happens to several different models, it's either really bad luck or
something else in the system or software. I'd definitely do a cross
check with other games and on different machines.

JM2C,
Alen

Re: [GD-General] A DirectInput problem

[Chris C. <ch...@bl...>]

If you want to see which combinations of keys don't register on your
keyboard, Google for KeyboardTest, which is a little application from
PassMark that displays what scan codes are coming out of the keyboard, etc
and visually displays what keys it thinks you have pressed. For example,
your S+D+Space correctly registers on mine, but A+D then E doesn't. I've had
different results with different keyboards, but it would be a poor
manufacturer that arranged the key groupings so that the most common FPS
bindings didn't register!

Chris Chapman
Black Company Studios

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Alen Ladavac <ale...@cr...> wrote:

> Xavier wrote:
> > I have encountered the same problem as well on some (many?) keyboards,
> > with the four arrow keys not being detected when pressed at the same
> time.
>
> > I think it has to do with the wiring or the microcontroller inside some
> > keyboards that groups keys by 4, but I can't find a link anymore.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29>
>
> > (and I don't know of any workaround.)
>
> The workaround is either to buy a better keyboard, or to bind keys in
> different positions so this doesn't happen. <shrug/>
>
> But for the key combos that Pierre describes, I'd be suspicious. A lot
> of games use those, and most modern keyboards allow those three
> presses. Finding one keyboard that doesn't is quite possible, but if
> it happens to several different models, it's either really bad luck or
> something else in the system or software. I'd definitely do a cross
> check with other games and on different machines.
>
> JM2C,
> Alen
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sponsored by: SourceForge.net Community Choice Awards: VOTE NOW!
> Studies have shown that voting for your favorite open source project,
> along with a healthy diet, reduces your potential for chronic lameness
> and boredom. Vote Now at http://www.sourceforge.net/community/cca08
> _______________________________________________
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>

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

Bob, rather than consume bandwidth on GD-General, I've answered that
question here: http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=126
<http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=126>  (I'm happy to credit
you as the asker of the question if you'd like).



  _____  

From: Bob [mailto:ma...@mb...] 
Sent: Tuesday, 27 May 2008 7:45pm
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created


 

> Because of my research I now recognise it as unethical and so I can never
> countenance going back to it, but we can leave ethical considerations as a
> personal choice - whilst such unethical legislation still stands.

I defy that claim. How is Copyright fundamentally unethical?

Re: [GD-General] Pro-IP bill passed the house: User-created

[Crosbie F. <cr...@cy...>]

> From: George Warner
> Ok, so why should a company spend money on a commission for 
> something that their competition will then get for free?

I've responded here:
http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=127 (happy to credit you as
the asker of the questions if you wish).

If people feel this discussion remains on topic, I'll be happy to resume it
here.