Thread: RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder...
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From: CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...> - 2004-06-07 14:32:01
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Hi >http://www.gamesfromwithin.com I ve just read the article about the cowboy coders in the game industry that i found in your website , it s very interesting and so realistic ! I don t really agree with the conclusion , and the history of Mr = Carmack is the best example (note that i don t know very much about his = personnal history), IMO we need those cowboys and they re perfect for jobs like = lead coder . However I agree there s cons like their interest that is generally = focused around the rendering techs (don t ask them to write a dev tool ! ) but i think common coders can only produce common product.Can you tell me why quake engine had so = much success ? If you can give the interesting part to your cowboy he will produce much more than others and quicker , using tricks that one on = the team knew ! As a conclusion i guess everybody here will agree with the fact that = these cowboys are easily identified :) Regards GC. ************************************************************************= * Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.=20 Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.=20 SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au = titre de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. D=E9couvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site www.sgam.fr=20 ******** This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and intended solely for the addressees. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.=20 E-mails are susceptible to alteration. =20 Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates = shall be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.=20 ************************************************************************= * |
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From: Nick T. <ni...@ro...> - 2004-06-07 21:57:51
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> On Behalf Of Richard Fabian > I've just been elevated to tech lead, and as a small company, we need > good guys first time round (can't waste ages finding out people aren't > up to the job), so my question is: what do you guys consider important > when hiring a coder? That's an interesting question and I like the replies so far. Sometimes you just click with someone and you know they would be a good bet. A lot of what you are looking for is categorised as experience, but to dissect this, I think I look for: * Good understanding of language syntax and features. If you don't understand the language you are programming in, how can you define precisely what you want to do, schedule, find problems and refine. Years of C++ experience doesn't necessarily mean someone is good at OO or design, which after all are the reasons for those features. * Vertical knowledge. Do you know your stuff from high level to hardware? Often you need to design with performance in mind or fix hardware abstractions. * Understanding of the process of making games. You don't have to be a lead but knowing why a project was successful or failed is important. Projects rarely succeed just because a team wrote kick ass code. Even newbies from college have worked on team projects and should have an idea of what dynamics can cause success and failure. * Versatility (horizontal knowledge). Programmers rarely stick to one job for the duration of a project. The greater understanding you have of the whole, the better you have of the parts. * Communication skills. Can you explain things in clear, concise manner? Can you expand on a point? Do you have *insight*? In the event that you don't know something, do you admit it and say how you'd go about finding a solution, or do you start making one up (unconvincingly!)? * People that have the personality skills to fit into a team. This relies equally on the project management team not creating a hostile environment. People having hobbies outside the work environment is a good thing and should be encouraged as is makes people more rounded and not so bitter about work. Staring at code 24-7 is not good for the soul. Being able to escape leads to fresh ideas.=20 * Disciplined, focussed, enthusiasm. There's a certain level of pathological commitment, enthusiasm and determination that makes a good game developer (N.B. not just programmers). The ability to commit when necessary, innovate and be self reliant, but in a disciplined manner. People who write their own rules cause problems. * Humility is an important human quality to avoid prima donnas. * Sense of humour! When the shit hits the fan... :) * An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name. I'm certainly don't know everything (reading GD-algorithms confirms this!!), but I don't have to know everything if we have our bases covered on our teams. So you're looking for people that fill the gaps and make you feel confident. You must have a clear picture in your mind of the hole this person is going to fill in the team (just like if you were going to buy a player for a soccer team!). I think an important point is that more than one person interview a candidate, including different disciplines, e.g. a producer and a programmer, and maybe even an artist or designer. Also, do a programming test of some form. Sometimes you end up in the grey zone, where you don't get a strong feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and not quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D). Discussing the candidate and studying their test after the interview generally swings your decision one way or the other.=20 Nick |
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From: Bryan W. <br...@xm...> - 2004-06-07 22:53:24
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> where you don't get a strong=20 > feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and not=20 > quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D).=20 Bad idea. If you are the job hunter, it might loosen you up, but what might come = out of that? I've heard some pretty bad stories where a single drink ended up = with a candidate saying the wrong things or leading to a few more drinks and = getting drunk. If you are the interviewer, (US) federal law prohibits discrimination = based on based religious beliefs or on past alcohol use or abuse. I can very = easily see a turned-down applicant come back with a lawsuit saying "He offered = me a drink, he was trying to find out if I was (part of a non-drinking = religion | a past alcohol abuser )." =20 Either way, it opens up the doors to bad situations. bryanw. |
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From: scott <sco...@es...> - 2004-06-08 14:43:01
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On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote: > > * An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name. > I don't even know Jim's first name! And besides, don't you want at least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls? Or protect you from the wallet inspectors? ;) scott -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- scott jacobs sco...@es... -------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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From: Mike W. <mi...@ge...> - 2004-06-08 19:28:49
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lol yeah i was gonna say something, but thought i might get lynched for blaspheming startrek ;} scott wrote: > On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote: > >>* An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name. >> > > > I don't even know Jim's first name! And besides, don't you want at > least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls? Or protect > you from the wallet inspectors? ;) > > scott > -- Mike Wuetherick Gekido Design Group Inc www.gekidodesigns.com (604) 872-6970 |
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From: Nick T. <ni...@ro...> - 2004-06-08 01:55:42
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> Bryan Wagstaff > > where you don't get a strong > > feeling either way. Often candidates are nervous and not > > quite themselves (offer them a belt of scotch! ;-D). >=20 > Bad idea. >=20 > If you are the job hunter, it might loosen you up, but what might come out > of > that? I've heard some pretty bad stories where a single drink ended up > with a > candidate saying the wrong things or leading to a few more drinks and > getting > drunk. >=20 > If you are the interviewer, (US) federal law prohibits discrimination > based on > based religious beliefs or on past alcohol use or abuse. I can very > easily > see a turned-down applicant come back with a lawsuit saying "He offered me > a > drink, he was trying to find out if I was (part of a non-drinking religion > | a > past alcohol abuser )." >=20 > Either way, it opens up the doors to bad situations. Ah the wonderous US legal system; I'll scratch your back, you sue me for assault. I was joking about offering slugs of scotch, but I take your point. We often take candidates to lunch but it's totally up to the candidate what they drink. Getting them out of the office atmosphere helps break the ice.=20 Nick |
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From: Mat N. \(BUNGIE\) <mat...@mi...> - 2004-06-08 15:16:27
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I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers. MSN -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of Jamie Fowlston Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 8:12 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder... The bit that really made me sit up was this: <colin> that's how I regard most other programmers: sometimes well-intentioned, but mostly liabilities </colin> :) Jamie -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of Javier Arevalo Sent: 08 June 2004 15:52 To: gam...@li... Subject: Re: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder... Colin Fahey wrote: > I consider myself an extremely good "coder" and "software engineer". > I cheerfully assisted several teams in reaching project goals, and I > was liked by fellow programmers and by other members of the team > (such as artists, managers, hardware engineers, etc). > > I only mention those things to support my assertion that the > following opinions are meaningful: If you told me that during an interview you'd be in serious trouble. Ahh the irony! :-) -- Javier Arevalo Pyro Studios ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation Hackers Unite! GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop Event. GNOME Users and Developers European Conference, 28-30th June in Norway http://2004/guadec.org _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation Hackers Unite! GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop Event. GNOME Users and Developers European Conference, 28-30th June in Norway http://2004/guadec.org _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 |
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From: CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...> - 2004-06-08 15:43:19
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>I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers. Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ? Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ). Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview : do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t talk so much ... GC. ************************************************************************* Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite. Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration. SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site www.sgam.fr ******** This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and intended solely for the addressees. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. E-mails are susceptible to alteration. Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. ************************************************************************* |
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From: Jamie F. <ja...@qu...> - 2004-06-08 16:06:43
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I'd agree with what someone else said re. nervousness: it puts a lot of noise in the signal, makes it difficult to know who they really are. The social aspect is important, at least as a hygiene factor; i.e. it's not vital that someone contributes massively to the social side, but it is important they don't detract from it. There are some people i just don't get on with very well (although i'm sure they'll find some group of people they'll get on fine with), and that's the last thing you need every day during a crunch period. It doesn't matter so much if someone doesn't talk much, just so long as when they do they don't piss everyone off :) Jamie -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of CAVEY GERARD Sent: 08 June 2004 16:43 To: 'gam...@li...' Subject: RE: [GD-General] what you look for in a coder... >I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers. Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ? Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ). Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview : do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t talk so much ... GC. ************************************************************************* Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite. Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration. SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Decouvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site www.sgam.fr ******** This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and intended solely for the addressees. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. E-mails are susceptible to alteration. Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: GNOME Foundation Hackers Unite! GUADEC: The world's #1 Open Source Desktop Event. GNOME Users and Developers European Conference, 28-30th June in Norway http://2004/guadec.org _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557 |
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From: Antoine C. <a.c...@fr...> - 2004-06-08 21:49:32
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CAVEY GERARD wrote: >>I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers. >> >> >Well the question here is how do you define a good programmer ? >Obviously none of us is perfect (except Colin :) ). >Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview : >do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the >coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t >talk so much ... > > > I'm not a recruiter, but I think being minimally communicative is important to fit in a team. However, there are people who need a little time to get used to a new work environment and new coworkers. It's my case. I'm about as open, relaxed and joking around after the first few weeks that I'm an autist barely able to even articulate "hello" the first weeks. And I have even no idea why. |
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From: Noel L. <nl...@co...> - 2004-06-09 01:51:38
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On Tuesday 08 June 2004 08:43 am, CAVEY GERARD wrote: > Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview : > do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of the > coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesn t > talk so much ... I'd say the social aspect is extremely important. Game development is a team activity. Any programmer/coder/engineer in a functional team is going to have to interact frequently with other programmers/artists/designers. Someone who can't interact in a normal way with the rest of the team, even in situations of stress and personal critique, could be a liability to the team. But that's very different than not talking very much or not liking the same TV shows as the rest of the team. While on the subject, something else to look for in a team member that I don't think anybody has mentioned: Diversity. Getting people from different backgrounds, different companies (very important!), who approach problems in different ways, think differently, have different hobbies, read different books, and play different games can only strengthen your team in the long run. You just have to keep them from killing each other :-) --Noel Games from Within http://www.gamesfromwithin.com |
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From: Nick T. <ni...@ro...> - 2004-06-08 18:24:24
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> scott > On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote: > > > > * An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name. > > > I don't even know Jim's first name! And besides, don't you want at > least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls? Or protect > you from the wallet inspectors? ;) It's Tiberius! (I had to look it up - the shame). http://www.starfleetlibrary.com/bios/james_t_kirk.htm I have noticed an unusual interest in Star Trek amongst programmers, well, actually developers, in the past. I attribute this (jokingly), and the seemingly lacking personality skills of _some_ developers to borderline autism. However, that's not always a detrimental comment! See this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3380569.stm Autism is much higher in men than women. The following link is interesting: <quote> "Are there essential differences between the male and female brain? My theory is that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and that the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems. I call it the empathising-systemising (E-S) theory." [...] "Is there an explanation for autism?=20 I argue that people with autism may have an extreme of the male brain - good at systemising, very bad at empathising - and that studying autism with E-S theory in mind, can help increase our understanding of the condition. Two largest sub-groups of autism are classic autism, and Asperger syndrome. Both share certain features: a difficulty in developing social relationships; a difficulty in communication; the presence of unusually strong, narrow interests; and a strong adherence to routines." </quote> See "They just can't help it": http://www.aetheronline.com/mario/Eye-Openers/women_vs_men.htm and there is a test: :-) http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,937443,00.html I'm merely making an observation here. I don't think this is unique to the games industry either. I'm just pointing out a personality type that some of us may recognise. Hell, we might even recognise these traits in ourselves. > CAVEY GERARD > >I'd say that's a result of working with bad programmers. > > Someone here spoke about the stress during an interview : > do you think it is really important , do you think the social aspect of > the > coder is really important ?Will you deny a good engineer because he doesnt > talk so much ... I know I've messed up interviews and exams in the past because of nerves. Exams are unfortunate because you don't get a second chance. If you're unsure you should give someone a second interview, at least phone them up. I would definitely hire someone who was quiet but answered all my questions. We have some great, diligent programmers who hardly say a word, but listen and contribute. It takes all sorts to make a world. Nick |
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From: Enno R. <en...@de...> - 2004-06-08 20:07:00
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Nick Trout wrote: >>scott >>On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:57:46PM -0700, Nick Trout wrote: >> >>>* An interest in Star Trek. Must at least know Jim's middle name. >>> >> >>I don't even know Jim's first name! And besides, don't you want at >>least one member on your team who can introduce you to girls? Or >> protect > >>you from the wallet inspectors? ;) > > > It's Tiberius! (I had to look it up - the shame). I think everyone on my current team would have flunked that question :-) But that's probably because until a few years ago, Trek wasn't shown on norwegian television, so all the geeks here suffer a huge cultural deficit. Having been raised on all flavours of Trek, and grown up with two Trekkie sisters, this is quite strange. But if you interview any norwegians, Nick, cut them some slack :-) Enno -- Tell you what. Let's just issue a mandatory warning at the startup of every Perl script that says: "Don't be stupid." --Larry Wall |
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From: Peter L. <pe...@to...> - 2004-06-07 15:59:50
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> I don t really agree with the conclusion , and the history of Mr Carmack > is the best example (note that i don t know very much about his personnal > history), IMO we need those cowboys and they re perfect for jobs like lead > coder . > You must have a significantly different definition of 'lead coder' than I do. A "lead" as the word implies needs to lead the rest of the team in a way that they can follow. Noel's definition of cowboy makes clear that won't happen. A 'hero' (again, by his definition) maybe can. Of course these, like all categories of people, allow for a lot of spillover. If you have a very competent team, there's room for more cowboy-style coding, because no-one will be in a position where they can't handle the code. But in most cases, having a consistent design philosophy throughout the code that's transparent and easy to follow will make the team as a whole more capable. It's easier to discuss how each person's tasks can be accomplished if the system's constructed more simply. Someone once told me that Seymour Cray's big advantage was that he could hold mental images of larger circuits than anyone else; it seems a good metaphor for coders too. The interfaces between components are ideally a lot simpler than the inner workings of those components - and I suspect that's one characteristic of cowboys: their systems are bigger and have more internal complexity. You can have a cowboy on the team, as long as the real lead can do his job - which is ensuring that everyone's work integrates well into the common code base. So the lead better be damn near as good a coder as the cowboy, without the loner traits, as well as having all the 'people skills' to manage the personality issues that will certainly arise. Peter |
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