gamedevlists-general

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on documentries
about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany ) it's illegal
for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the German people
are calling for "flexibility".

But I have to admit I'm pretty ignorant in this area, I do know that talking
to one of the people from our publisher said that one developer in France
they work with is (in his vision) a "nightmare cause they work so little
hours".

Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work hours are
~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Thankfully this is GD-General so now we can go into that discussion.

Yay, I always like it when this list gets more volume than gd-algo :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Newport [mailto:mat...@ni...]
> Sent: 06 June 2003 15:38
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> > <stir>
> > 
> > In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you 
> > have siestas. 
> > 
> > </stir>
> 
> I don't think the regulations say you *can't* work more than 
> 37.5 hours, they say you can't be *required* to work more 
> than 37.5 hours which is rather different. So you can't be 
> sacked for refusing to work more than 37.5 hours but if you 
> choose to work more hours that's fine.
> 
> Matt. 
> 
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[GD-General] Work hours, was (but has little to do with) Re: Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

> Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on documentries
> about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany ) it's illegal
> for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the German people
> are calling for "flexibility".

I don't know exactly, but I think that's only true if you've got a union 
contract. Where I work, contracts are for 37.5 hours, but there's overtime 
during crunch periods. This can be either paid or unpaid depending on the 
contract, but there's a limit (200 hours, IIRC) of how much you're allowed 
to work per year.

> But I have to admit I'm pretty ignorant in this area, I do know that talking
> to one of the people from our publisher said that one developer in France
> they work with is (in his vision) a "nightmare cause they work so little
> hours".

I heard the same thing from a publisher. "They come in at 11 and leave at 
3!", but someohwo I find that hard to believe. We've probably talked to the 
same publisher here, and it wasn't Atari :-)

Personally, my productivity per hour gets higher when I go beyond 40 hours a 
week. I like working around 50, because it takes a while to get started each 
day, and in the evening, if there is a lose end, I'd like to tie it rather 
than push it into the next day. Burnout can become a problem if you push 
that. For me, taking a full day off when I feel like it instead of working 
to a strict schedule works much better. So I'd rather work 4x10 hours than 
5x8, but that's not really working out :-)

Enno.

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

> Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work
> hours are ~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Steady, long-term work is most productive at about 40hrs / week. However,
unproductivity due to buggy organisation (i.e. wasted work) *can* be made up
by bruteforcing longer hours. In addition, short bursts of longer hours can
get more stuff done (and even achieve higher productivity per hour) without
losing quality, _if_ the people are motivated and believe in the
appropriateness or neccesity of the increased production speed. ("Motivated"
as in "Not Dilbert-style")

Planning for periods of longer hours is a long-term disaster.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on
documentries about the Euro and the problems they are having in Germany )
it's illegal for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That's why the
German people are calling for "flexibility".

That doesn't sound right. I can understand them not being allowed to force
you to work more than a certain amount, and I've met / worked under
management types who would read that as limiting their work-hours (as in, I
can't work a 50 hour week because I can't force my staff to work a 50 hour
week).

> Personally, I think that productivity is the highest when the work hours
are ~40 a week, but that's a totaly differance discussion.

Are we defining work hours, as hours you are at the work-place, or hours
you are actively working? I mean, I spend at least an hour at work every
day doing stuff that's not strictly work-related, not including lunch.
Also, I spend a lot of time outside of work, thinking about work, and since
50% of my job is planning the other 50% of it, is that work too?

Cheers,
Phil

[GD-General] Re: Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Enno R. <en...@de...>]

> Are we defining work hours, as hours you are at the work-place, or hours
> you are actively working? I mean, I spend at least an hour at work every
> day doing stuff that's not strictly work-related, not including lunch.
> Also, I spend a lot of time outside of work, thinking about work, and since
> 50% of my job is planning the other 50% of it, is that work too?

What you do off-work is your own choice. Not work. Especially in our 
business, we tend to mix this up. I frequently describe my job like this: 
"Work is when I'm having fun and getting paid for it. Free time is when I'm 
just having fun. Guess which is better".

But this is of course not the full story, and there's another definition of 
work that explains it: "The difference between work and fun is that I can 
choose not to have fun". Noone will force you to think about work during 
free time. and if you're flipping burgers, you wouldn't. I assume that if 
you do it anyways, you do it because it's something you enjoy.

Enno.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> > Actually, as I understand EU rules ( and I know this based on
> documentries about the Euro and the problems they are having 
> in Germany )
> it's illegal for you to work more than 37.5 hours a week. 
> That's why the
> German people are calling for "flexibility".
> 
> That doesn't sound right. I can understand them not being 
> allowed to force
> you to work more than a certain amount, and I've met / worked under
> management types who would read that as limiting their 
> work-hours (as in, I
> can't work a 50 hour week because I can't force my staff to 
> work a 50 hour
> week).

I'll try to find some backing, but the problem in the EU is that even if the
boss doesn't "force" people to work, but they do anyway, the boss is at
Fault. Also the law (I think) is that you don't need to have a case brought
against you by an employee. Again that's why the Germans want "Flexibility".
which means (as I understand it) the ability for people to work longer if
they so choose.

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Pierre T. <p.t...@wa...>]

> You can just email them directly. I did when I still owned B.O.G and they
> varied from about $200k to $500k. 

$500k ? Twice as much as Q3 ? Wow.
(For which one, exactly ...?)

> And to answer your question, it's cheaper to buy :)

That's not what you think :)
I certainly would like to licence them, just to look at the code !

- Pierre

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

> You can just email them directly. I did when I still owned B.O.G and they
> varied from about $200k to $500k. 
> 
> And to answer your question, it's cheaper to buy :)

Depend what you mean by cheaper. ;)

- Neil.