gamedevlists-general

RE: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Milkshape 3D is supposedly a good free 3d Modeller
(http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/index.html)

GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/) is also free.=20

But before you go for those, I would send off an email to Alias and
Discreet. If you ask nice enough, they tend to give free eval editions.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastian Uribe [mailto:su...@it...]
> Sent: 11 November 2002 15:05
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] software for artwork
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hello all,
>=20
>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork=20
> for a game
> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
> Windows platform.
>     I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
> what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of=20
> Photoshop). I'd
> love to use the best, but right now our economical situation=20
> isn't good
> for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.
>=20
>     Thanks.
>=20
> --
> Sebasti=E1n Uribe
> ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
> su...@it...
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
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> Archives:
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>=20

RE: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Yep - we premultiply, palettise, and then un-premultiply again. Works well.
We've also spent quite a lot of effort finding good palettisers.
Kohonon-network based ones are good, and weused that for the last project.
The new one is a mad mix of various perceptual techniques and stuff (we have
a chap fascinated by this stuff), works in an arbitrary number of
dimensions, but is very very slow. We plan to use the old kohonen one for
quick previews, and then overnight crunch away at the textures with the
slow-but-superb one.

But we never found any decent out-of-the-box ones.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> Sent: 13 November 2002 09:11
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork
> 
> 
> Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:
> 
> > Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not
> > visually to disturbing when applied to color components, 
> surprisingly
> > if you extend these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really,
> > really crappy... 
> > 
> > I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing that when A tend
> > toward 0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB
> > components (they are almost invisible at this point), so a lot of
> > colors are used in semi translucent tints, that could have been used
> > in nearly opaque areas. 
> 
> Yeah that's one of the places where premultiplied alpha 
> textures help...
> 
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Lionel F. <li...@mi...>]

Hello,

I have currently exactly this kind of stuff to write : something to convert
32bits pictures into 8bits with palette ARGB for the PlayStation 2. I never
really though to this question, so I though it would be easy to do (simple
octree in 4D space, or something like that).

Could you give me more details about the alpha channel multiplication ?
A quick search with Google shows me a lot of answers about the Kohonon nets.
But is there somewhere a not-too-bad free lib with source that could help me
? (in fact, I didn't give a lot of time in my schedule to do that task :))

Thank you for any advice,

Lionel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Forsyth" <to...@mu...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: [GD-General] software for artwork


> Yep - we premultiply, palettise, and then un-premultiply again. Works
well.
> We've also spent quite a lot of effort finding good palettisers.
> Kohonon-network based ones are good, and weused that for the last project.
> The new one is a mad mix of various perceptual techniques and stuff (we
have
> a chap fascinated by this stuff), works in an arbitrary number of
> dimensions, but is very very slow. We plan to use the old kohonen one for
> quick previews, and then overnight crunch away at the textures with the
> slow-but-superb one.
>
> But we never found any decent out-of-the-box ones.
>
>
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
>
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> > Sent: 13 November 2002 09:11
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork
> >
> >
> > Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:
> >
> > > Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not
> > > visually to disturbing when applied to color components,
> > surprisingly
> > > if you extend these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really,
> > > really crappy...
> > >
> > > I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing that when A tend
> > > toward 0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB
> > > components (they are almost invisible at this point), so a lot of
> > > colors are used in semi translucent tints, that could have been used
> > > in nearly opaque areas.
> >
> > Yeah that's one of the places where premultiplied alpha
> > textures help...
> >
> >   Javier Arevalo
> >   Pyro Studios
>
>
>
>
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> Archives:
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>

RE: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

we couldn't find anything good and free that handled alpha when we were
doing stuntman

we found a very expensive japanese package that did a good job (name escapes
me)

in the end, we went with a vector quantisation approach (or had done up
until i left the company :)

you should definitely be able to find source code for kohonen nets and VQ
stuff, i know we did at the time (but can't remember where now, all lost in
the deep past :)

jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Lionel Fumery
Sent: 13 November 2002 22:13
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork


Hello,

I have currently exactly this kind of stuff to write : something to convert
32bits pictures into 8bits with palette ARGB for the PlayStation 2. I never
really though to this question, so I though it would be easy to do (simple
octree in 4D space, or something like that).

Could you give me more details about the alpha channel multiplication ?
A quick search with Google shows me a lot of answers about the Kohonon nets.
But is there somewhere a not-too-bad free lib with source that could help me
? (in fact, I didn't give a lot of time in my schedule to do that task :))

Thank you for any advice,

Lionel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Forsyth" <to...@mu...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: [GD-General] software for artwork


> Yep - we premultiply, palettise, and then un-premultiply again. Works
well.
> We've also spent quite a lot of effort finding good palettisers.
> Kohonon-network based ones are good, and weused that for the last project.
> The new one is a mad mix of various perceptual techniques and stuff (we
have
> a chap fascinated by this stuff), works in an arbitrary number of
> dimensions, but is very very slow. We plan to use the old kohonen one for
> quick previews, and then overnight crunch away at the textures with the
> slow-but-superb one.
>
> But we never found any decent out-of-the-box ones.
>
>
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
>
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> > Sent: 13 November 2002 09:11
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork
> >
> >
> > Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:
> >
> > > Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not
> > > visually to disturbing when applied to color components,
> > surprisingly
> > > if you extend these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really,
> > > really crappy...
> > >
> > > I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing that when A tend
> > > toward 0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB
> > > components (they are almost invisible at this point), so a lot of
> > > colors are used in semi translucent tints, that could have been used
> > > in nearly opaque areas.
> >
> > Yeah that's one of the places where premultiplied alpha
> > textures help...
> >
> >   Javier Arevalo
> >   Pyro Studios
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
>



-------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Ivan-Assen I. <as...@ha...>]

> you should definitely be able to find source code for kohonen nets and VQ
> stuff, i know we did at the time (but can't remember where now, all lost in
> the deep past :)

<plug>
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010416/ivanov_pfv.htm
</plug>

;-)

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

> <plug>
> http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010416/ivanov_pfv.htm
> </plug>
> 
> ;-)

Hey, that is an interesting, well-written article, Assen!

--- Colin

[GD-General] RE: software for artwork

[Iain R. <i.n...@re...>]

>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork for a game
> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
> Windows platform.

Yes, Blender is not bad for 3D, although you really need to download or
buy documentation for it, as the user interface not self-explanatory.
For 2D, there's always Corel (Photopaint in particular). You can usually
buy a slightly old version cheap (I got version 8 for £20).

Iain

RE: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

The premultiply is pretty simple.

The standard blend equation is this:

result = texture.C * texture.A + fb.C * (1-texture.A)

...which means that when texture.A is close to zero, the values of texture.C
really aren't very exciting - they produce only small changes. Perceptually,
the only thing that matters is (texture.C*texture.A). So do the multiply:

texture2.C = texture.C * texture.A
texture2.A = texture.A

Then palettise.

Many (myself included) then say you should keep it in this form right to the
actual blend, so you do a ONE:INVSRCALPHA blend instead of the more normal
SRCALPHA:INVSRCALPHA blend. But the PS2 can't actually do this blend (doh!),
so you need to convert back to the original form once you've palettised and
do:

texture3.C = texture2.C / texture2.A
texture3.A = texture2.A

(cope with the singularities at texture2.A==0 by making texture3.C anything
you like, usually black).

...and there you go. The pallising was done in a much more
perceptually-significant colourspace, so it should be much higher quality.


(note that the PS2 can do ONE:SRCALPHA blending, so you could just invert
the alpha channel, but then the rest of the blend pipeline is a pain if you
want to fade stuff in and out and so on).


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lionel Fumery [mailto:li...@mi...]
> Sent: 13 November 2002 22:13
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have currently exactly this kind of stuff to write : 
> something to convert
> 32bits pictures into 8bits with palette ARGB for the 
> PlayStation 2. I never
> really though to this question, so I though it would be easy 
> to do (simple
> octree in 4D space, or something like that).
> 
> Could you give me more details about the alpha channel 
> multiplication ?
> A quick search with Google shows me a lot of answers about 
> the Kohonon nets.
> But is there somewhere a not-too-bad free lib with source 
> that could help me
> ? (in fact, I didn't give a lot of time in my schedule to do 
> that task :))
> 
> Thank you for any advice,
> 
> Lionel.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Forsyth" <to...@mu...>
> To: <gam...@li...>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] software for artwork
> 
> 
> > Yep - we premultiply, palettise, and then un-premultiply 
> again. Works
> well.
> > We've also spent quite a lot of effort finding good palettisers.
> > Kohonon-network based ones are good, and weused that for 
> the last project.
> > The new one is a mad mix of various perceptual techniques 
> and stuff (we
> have
> > a chap fascinated by this stuff), works in an arbitrary number of
> > dimensions, but is very very slow. We plan to use the old 
> kohonen one for
> > quick previews, and then overnight crunch away at the 
> textures with the
> > slow-but-superb one.
> >
> > But we never found any decent out-of-the-box ones.
> >
> >
> > Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> >
> > This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> > and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> > > Sent: 13 November 2002 09:11
> > > To: gam...@li...
> > > Subject: Re: [GD-General] software for artwork
> > >
> > >
> > > Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not
> > > > visually to disturbing when applied to color components,
> > > surprisingly
> > > > if you extend these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really,
> > > > really crappy...
> > > >
> > > > I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing 
> that when A tend
> > > > toward 0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB
> > > > components (they are almost invisible at this point), 
> so a lot of
> > > > colors are used in semi translucent tints, that could 
> have been used
> > > > in nearly opaque areas.
> > >
> > > Yeah that's one of the places where premultiplied alpha
> > > textures help...
> > >
> > >   Javier Arevalo
> > >   Pyro Studios
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This sf.net email is sponsored by: Are you worried about
> > your web server security? Click here for a FREE Thawte
> > Apache SSL Guide and answer your Apache SSL security
> > needs: http://www.gothawte.com/rd523.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: Are you worried about 
> your web server security? Click here for a FREE Thawte 
> Apache SSL Guide and answer your Apache SSL security 
> needs: http://www.gothawte.com/rd523.html
> _______________________________________________
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> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[BG <arc...@ma...>]

Discreet also provides a lightweight derivative of MAX called Gmax=20
(Microsoft bundles with with Flight Simulator 2002 as well).

http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/

>
> But before you go for those, I would send off an email to Alias and
> Discreet. If you ask nice enough, they tend to give free eval =
editions.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sebastian Uribe [mailto:su...@it...]
>> Sent: 11 November 2002 15:05
>> To: gam...@li...
>> Subject: [GD-General] software for artwork
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork
>> for a game
>> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
>> Windows platform.
>>     I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
>> what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of
>> Photoshop). I'd
>> love to use the best, but right now our economical situation
>> isn't good
>> for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.
>>
>>     Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Sebasti=E1n Uribe
>> ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
>> su...@it...
>>

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Eero P. <epa...@ko...>]

BG wrote:

> Discreet also provides a lightweight derivative of MAX called Gmax
> (Microsoft bundles with with Flight Simulator 2002 as well).
>
> http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/


AFAIK GMAX is targeted for the game end user. For the developper, who wants to
bundle it with his game it is not so cheap at all.

For a very low budget 3d modeller you might look at AC3D (www.ac3d.org).

For 2d graphics Gimp and Imagemagick for batch conversions etc.




		Eero

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Bob <ma...@mb...>]

...

GMax is useless to developers (unless you are using 3DS Max and want to
provide a free editor for your users, for a hefty licensing fee).

TrueSpace is not well geared to game development tasks; not sure how
that option even came up.

Blender3D... if you can find a use for it, feel free. I didn't have the
patience.

MilkShape3D <http://www.milkshape3d.com> is not going to win any awards
for it's 'intuitive' UI I will grant you, but it is geared to game
development tasks with support for a large number of formats (and a
plugin architecture to allow custom formats and expansion of it's
modeling/animation functions). For $20 you won't find better options.

To compliment MilkShape there are two other programs that are very good:
Untimate Unwrap 3D <http://www.unwrap3d.com> is possibly the best UV
mapping tool available for less that $500 (UUW3D is only $30), and
CharacterFX <http://www.insanesoftware.de/CharacterFX> is a quite good
skeletal animation tool, though the rendering engine uses some quirky
OGL methods.

Another low-end 3d modeling tool I really like is Nendo, but it has been
impossible to get for some while. However, a clone of the Nendo modeler,
Wings 3D <http://www.wings3d.com> is available free. The downside of
this alternative is that it relies on some hefty libraries and suffers
from a few quirks and bugs that Nendo does not.

To me, the ultimate in high end 3d game development software packages is
Mirai <http://www.izware.com>, but it is not as well recognized as Maya
and is far from the least expensive option. Plus, with the state
izware/nichimen is in, support is nonexistent and there is little hope
that the package has a future. So you are probably best going for Maya
these days, if you are going to make that large an investment.


On paint programs... Ulead??? Not a name I associate with "useful tools"
so much as quick solutions for web designers who aren't artistically
inclined. You can blame them for most of the gaudy eyesores on the 'net.

PhotoShop is quite decent, but as stated previously, it is primarily
geared to print art. There are many pixel artists who swear by it, but I
personally would recommend Corel PhotoPaint or Paint Shop Pro for most
of the tasks people use PhotoShop for in game development. A free
alternative that is very quirky but quite capable is The Gimp
<http://www.gimp.org>.

Here I could list also a lot of the "old school" paint programs I use,
but unless you are a serious 'graphician' I doubt the features would
impress. Most good digital artists will already know about the likes of
Deluxe Paint II or GrafX2, which can be found floating around in the
public domain if you are interested.


Ultimately, I look at the initial question, posted on a game development
list, and wonder: am I just sending out yet another programmer to try
solving the need for an artist with a piece of software? Maybe the link
that is most needed is something like this: <http://www.ice.org>.


--Bob

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

> Here I could list also a lot of the "old school" paint programs I use,
> but unless you are a serious 'graphician' I doubt the features would
> impress. Most good digital artists will already know about the likes
> of Deluxe Paint II or GrafX2, which can be found floating around in
> the public domain if you are interested.

I think you could also add ProMotion, and Aura (new name of TV-Paint):

http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/
http://www.newtek.com/products/aura/index.html

Aura is more in the paint box category, while Pro Motion is the spiritual
successor of Deluxe Paint, and is particularly good for clut based picturing
(GBA and PS2)

    Mike

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:

> Aura is more in the paint box category, while Pro Motion is the
> spiritual successor of Deluxe Paint, and is particularly good for
> clut based picturing (GBA and PS2)

Kind of changing topic here, but I'm curious... are manual palettization and
pixel-drawing common in PS2 developement? You had to do it sometimes on the
PS1, but I'm surprised it is still the case on the PS2, I expected most
palettes to be generated from rgb images/textures.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

Javier Arevalo wrote:
> Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:
>
>> Aura is more in the paint box category, while Pro Motion is the
>> spiritual successor of Deluxe Paint, and is particularly good for
>> clut based picturing (GBA and PS2)
>
> Kind of changing topic here, but I'm curious... are manual
> palettization and pixel-drawing common in PS2 developement? You had
> to do it sometimes on the PS1, but I'm surprised it is still the case
> on the PS2, I expected most palettes to be generated from rgb
> images/textures.

For most pictures, you are right, but we had trouble finding a good
algorithm to generate picture in 256 colors, using a 32 bit ARGB clut,
specially when the alpha channel is used.

Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not visually to
disturbing when applied to color components, surprisingly if you extend
these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really, really crappy...

I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing that when A tend toward
0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB components (they are
almost invisible at this point), so a lot of colors are used in semi
translucent tints, that could have been used in nearly opaque areas.

So, we had some graphist that some time to time on critical bitmaps create
cluts by hand, and remap the 32bits bitmap using that particular clut...


    Mike

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Mickael Pointier <mpo...@ed...> wrote:

> Standard quantization algorithms create artefacts, but thats not
> visually to disturbing when applied to color components, surprisingly
> if you extend these algorithm to 4d, the final result is really,
> really crappy... 
> 
> I think the reasons are multiples, the first beeing that when A tend
> toward 0, you do not really care about the true values of RGB
> components (they are almost invisible at this point), so a lot of
> colors are used in semi translucent tints, that could have been used
> in nearly opaque areas. 

Yeah that's one of the places where premultiplied alpha textures help...

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Sebastian U. <su...@it...>]

 Thanks for the lengthy answer (and all the others). I'm not trying to do
art myself, but to plan a project on a country which has devalued it's
currency by a factor of 3.6 since less than a year. For a small project,
with little staff, paying 3500 USD por 3DStudio is just impossible right
now, and I'm sure we can handle most of the art with something less complex
than the most expensive programs (hoping the artists will learn the programs
fast enough).


Bob wrote:

> Ultimately, I look at the initial question, posted on a game development
> list, and wonder: am I just sending out yet another programmer to try
> solving the need for an artist with a piece of software? Maybe the link
> that is most needed is something like this: <http://www.ice.org>.

--
Sebastián Uribe
ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
su...@it...