Thread: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild
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From: Grills, J. <jg...@so...> - 2003-01-13 15:17:22
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We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts our compile times in half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now we won't upgrade to MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It also does a much better job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6. Sometimes a normal build will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but after doing an incredibuild all those issues go away. It has some problems with custom build steps. We have some projects that won't properly build with it (like any of our apps that use QT). But the majority of our code works well with it. I think, if we had less programmers on the team and could make sure they were more diligent reducing compile time dependencies, that it might not be as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and the package is crucial to improving programmer workflow. Jeff Grills Technical Director, Austin Studio Star Wars Galaxies Sony Online Entertainment -----Original Message----- From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and wanted to know if anyone has used it ? (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is fairly open, and discussions of speading up compile times is quite common even in SWeng ) _____________________ Regards, Gareth Lewin |
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From: Grills, J. <jg...@so...> - 2003-01-13 16:36:36
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Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time it saves = is immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. Besides, you don't need to upgrade programmer machines nearly so often, because compile times are = much faster. In fact, on the next project I lead, I'm going to push to = leave all the programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use Incredibuild = to keep them working efficiently. j -----Original Message----- From: Emmanuel Astier [mailto:e_a...@ya...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:20 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild I also used it for a project where compile times were important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often... The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ), it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice. We had some problems with some settings, but nothing really important... All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said the cost was too high. Gosh... It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the test period ended... Emmanuel --- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a =E9crit=A0: > > We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts > our compile times in > half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now > we won't upgrade to > MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It > also does a much better > job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6.=20 > Sometimes a normal build > will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but > after doing an incredibuild > all those issues go away. >=20 > It has some problems with custom build steps. We > have some projects that > won't properly build with it (like any of our apps > that use QT). But the > majority of our code works well with it. >=20 > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and > could make sure they > were more diligent reducing compile time > dependencies, that it might not be > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and > the package is crucial > to improving programmer workflow. >=20 > Jeff Grills > Technical Director, Austin Studio > Star Wars Galaxies > Sony Online Entertainment > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM > To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) > Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 > I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and > wanted to know if anyone > has used it ? >=20 > (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is > fairly open, and discussions > of speading up compile times is quite common even in > SWeng ) >=20 > _____________________ > Regards, Gareth Lewin >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide > from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click > here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your=20 > SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557=20 ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 |
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From: Nicolas R. <nic...@fr...> - 2003-01-13 17:59:46
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Depends on how you working... We, here, don't care about min. specs at all (which are usually considered as the worst case), we only care about recommended ones.. I do think that recommended specs should be (when the game actually goes on the shelfs) the average machine specs. For a one year dev, it means that recommended specs are one year "ahead" which are usually the current top specs. For a two years dev (like ours currently) this is more tricky, like targetting 40fps on a GeFX + Opteron, or 20fps on a Radeon9700+Athlon2800 But that's for PCs... Consoles are different story (I do personnaly hate consoles since they are by definition already outdated when coming out). Nicolas Romantzoff > -----Original Message----- > From: gam...@li... > [mailto:gam...@li...] On > Behalf Of Grills, Jeff > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 5:37 PM > To: 'gam...@li...' > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild > > > > Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time > it saves is immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. > Besides, you don't need to upgrade programmer machines nearly > so often, because compile times are much faster. In fact, on > the next project I lead, I'm going to push to leave all the > programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use > Incredibuild to keep them working efficiently. > |
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From: Skelton, J. <jsk...@ea...> - 2003-01-13 16:48:23
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Make sure there is no possibility that your programmers will ever have = to do console work in the future ;) Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Grills, Jeff [mailto:jg...@so...]=20 Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 8:37 AM To: 'gam...@li...' Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time it saves = is immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. Besides, you don't need = to upgrade programmer machines nearly so often, because compile times = are much faster. In fact, on the next project I lead, I'm going to push = to leave all the programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use = Incredibuild to keep them working efficiently. j -----Original Message----- From: Emmanuel Astier [mailto:e_a...@ya...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:20 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild I also used it for a project where compile times were important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often... The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ), it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice. We had some problems with some settings, but nothing really important... All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said the cost was too high. Gosh... It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the test period ended... Emmanuel --- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a =E9crit=A0: > > We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts > our compile times in > half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now > we won't upgrade to > MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It > also does a much better > job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6. > Sometimes a normal build > will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but > after doing an incredibuild > all those issues go away. >=20 > It has some problems with custom build steps. We > have some projects that > won't properly build with it (like any of our apps > that use QT). But the > majority of our code works well with it. >=20 > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and > could make sure they > were more diligent reducing compile time > dependencies, that it might not be > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and > the package is crucial > to improving programmer workflow. >=20 > Jeff Grills > Technical Director, Austin Studio > Star Wars Galaxies > Sony Online Entertainment > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM > To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) > Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 > I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and > wanted to know if anyone > has used it ? >=20 > (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is > fairly open, and discussions > of speading up compile times is quite common even in > SWeng ) >=20 > _____________________ > Regards, Gareth Lewin >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide > from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click > here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your > SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list=20 > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557=20 ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! = Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you = planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL = guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. = http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list = Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you = planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL = guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. = http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list = Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 |
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From: Grills, J. <jg...@so...> - 2003-01-13 17:05:48
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To elaborate more, I find that programmers stop optimizing when code performs acceptably on their machine. So, if their processors are 3 = times as fast as the min spec machine, you've got problems waiting to bite = you. Consoles solve that - you run the code on the console, which is the = min-spec machine (and the max too). I'm basically proposing applying that model = to PC development, while still getting faster compile times. j -----Original Message----- From: Skelton, Jeff [mailto:jsk...@ea...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:48 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild Make sure there is no possibility that your programmers will ever have = to do console work in the future ;) Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Grills, Jeff [mailto:jg...@so...]=20 Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 8:37 AM To: 'gam...@li...' Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time it saves = is immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. Besides, you don't need to upgrade programmer machines nearly so often, because compile times are = much faster. In fact, on the next project I lead, I'm going to push to = leave all the programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use Incredibuild = to keep them working efficiently. j -----Original Message----- From: Emmanuel Astier [mailto:e_a...@ya...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:20 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild I also used it for a project where compile times were important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often... The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ), it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice. We had some problems with some settings, but nothing really important... All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said the cost was too high. Gosh... It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the test period ended... Emmanuel --- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a =E9crit=A0: > > We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts > our compile times in > half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now > we won't upgrade to > MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It > also does a much better > job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6. > Sometimes a normal build > will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but > after doing an incredibuild > all those issues go away. >=20 > It has some problems with custom build steps. We > have some projects that > won't properly build with it (like any of our apps > that use QT). But the > majority of our code works well with it. >=20 > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and > could make sure they > were more diligent reducing compile time > dependencies, that it might not be > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and > the package is crucial > to improving programmer workflow. >=20 > Jeff Grills > Technical Director, Austin Studio > Star Wars Galaxies > Sony Online Entertainment > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM > To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) > Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 > I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and > wanted to know if anyone > has used it ? >=20 > (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is > fairly open, and discussions > of speading up compile times is quite common even in > SWeng ) >=20 > _____________________ > Regards, Gareth Lewin >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide > from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click > here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your > SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list=20 > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557=20 ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! = Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL = guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list = Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL = guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list = Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-general mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 |
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From: Grills, J. <jg...@so...> - 2003-01-13 19:17:02
|
Well, I think my argument still holds. If you have programmers working on high end machines, and recommended machine specs are lower, I don't think the game usually ends up running well on the recommended machine. Put programmers (and all team members) on the machines that you want the game to run well on, whether that's the minimum or recommended, or something in between. And I in general agree that, the high end at the start of a project can be a good target machine when the game ships. j -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Romantzoff [mailto:nic...@fr...] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:59 AM To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild Depends on how you working... We, here, don't care about min. specs at all (which are usually considered as the worst case), we only care about recommended ones.. I do think that recommended specs should be (when the game actually goes on the shelfs) the average machine specs. For a one year dev, it means that recommended specs are one year "ahead" which are usually the current top specs. For a two years dev (like ours currently) this is more tricky, like targetting 40fps on a GeFX + Opteron, or 20fps on a Radeon9700+Athlon2800 But that's for PCs... Consoles are different story (I do personnaly hate consoles since they are by definition already outdated when coming out). Nicolas Romantzoff > -----Original Message----- > From: gam...@li... > [mailto:gam...@li...] On > Behalf Of Grills, Jeff > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 5:37 PM > To: 'gam...@li...' > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild > > > > Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time > it saves is immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. > Besides, you don't need to upgrade programmer machines nearly > so often, because compile times are much faster. In fact, on > the next project I lead, I'm going to push to leave all the > programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use > Incredibuild to keep them working efficiently. > |
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From: <phi...@pl...> - 2003-01-14 00:13:30
|
Alternatively invest in seperate test and development machines. So in t=
he
same way that a console developer has a devkit, a PC developer gets a
min/reccomended-spec machine to test on. Remote debugging fixes a lot o=
f
the heisenbug issues too. Plus my main machine HAS to run Maya at a use=
able
speed, so a low spec is completely out of the question.
Cheers,
Phil
PS Personally I hated PC development, primarily because it's almost
impossible to polish a moving target, and your game will always look li=
ke
shit on one or other of the billion configurations out there. PC monito=
rs
are like flourescent lights. Not flattering.
=
=20
"Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> =
=20
Sent by: To: =
"'gam...@li...'" =20
gam...@li...urc <game=
dev...@li...> =20
eforge.net cc: =
=20
Fax to=
: =20
Subjec=
t: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild =20
01/13/2003 09:05 AM =
=20
Please respond to gamedevlists-general =
=20
=
=20
=
=20
To elaborate more, I find that programmers stop optimizing when code
performs acceptably on their machine. So, if their processors are 3 ti=
mes
as fast as the min spec machine, you've got problems waiting to bite yo=
u.
Consoles solve that - you run the code on the console, which is the
min-spec
machine (and the max too). I'm basically proposing applying that model=
to
PC development, while still getting faster compile times.
j
-----Original Message-----
From: Skelton, Jeff [mailto:jsk...@ea...]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:48 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild
Make sure there is no possibility that your programmers will ever have =
to
do
console work in the future ;)
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Grills, Jeff [mailto:jg...@so...]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 8:37 AM
To: 'gam...@li...'
Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild
Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time it saves =
is
immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. Besides, you don't need to=
upgrade programmer machines nearly so often, because compile times are =
much
faster. In fact, on the next project I lead, I'm going to push to leav=
e
all
the programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use Incredibuild t=
o
keep them working efficiently.
j
-----Original Message-----
From: Emmanuel Astier [mailto:e_a...@ya...]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:20 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild
I also used it for a project where compile times were
important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete
rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this
title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often...
The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ),
it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice.
We had some problems with some settings, but nothing
really important...
All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said
the cost was too high. Gosh...
It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the
test period ended...
Emmanuel
--- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a =E9crit=A0: >
> We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts
> our compile times in
> half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now
> we won't upgrade to
> MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It
> also does a much better
> job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6.
> Sometimes a normal build
> will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but
> after doing an incredibuild
> all those issues go away.
>
> It has some problems with custom build steps. We
> have some projects that
> won't properly build with it (like any of our apps
> that use QT). But the
> majority of our code works well with it.
>
> I think, if we had less programmers on the team and
> could make sure they
> were more diligent reducing compile time
> dependencies, that it might not be
> as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and
> the package is crucial
> to improving programmer workflow.
>
> Jeff Grills
> Technical Director, Austin Studio
> Star Wars Galaxies
> Sony Online Entertainment
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...]
> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM
> To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail)
> Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild
>
>
> I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and
> wanted to know if anyone
> has used it ?
>
> (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is
> fairly open, and discussions
> of speading up compile times is quite common even in
> SWeng )
>
> _____________________
> Regards, Gareth Lewin
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide
> from Thawte
> are you planning your Web Server Security? Click
> here to get a FREE
> Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your
> SSL security issues.
>
http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Yah=
oo!
Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
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planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL
guide
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_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
-------------------------------------------------------
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planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE Thawte SSL
guide
and find the answers to all your SSL security issues.
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_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7
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This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte
are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE
Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues.=
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_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte
are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE
Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL security issues.=
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_______________________________________________
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Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7
=
|
|
From: Tom F. <to...@mu...> - 2003-01-16 19:34:27
|
We put time-hog slugs in the code that reduce your machine to a = minimum-spec one in normal builds. Solves that problem quite nicely. It's fairly approximate, but then so is anything on a PC :-) The gotcha is that the nature of the graphics code changes radically = with timing slugs, because the whole GPU/CPU parallelism thing is completely different. But then graphics coders have their own huge nightmare with different graphics cards and so on, so you can probably trust them not = to go bezerk with stuff if they have to make it run on a Voodoo1 or whatever. Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP. This email is the product of your deranged imagination, and does not in any way imply existence of the author. > -----Original Message----- > From: Grills, Jeff [mailto:jg...@so...] > Sent: 13 January 2003 17:06 > To: 'gam...@li...' > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 >=20 > To elaborate more, I find that programmers stop optimizing when code > performs acceptably on their machine. So, if their=20 > processors are 3 times > as fast as the min spec machine, you've got problems waiting=20 > to bite you. > Consoles solve that - you run the code on the console, which=20 > is the min-spec > machine (and the max too). I'm basically proposing applying=20 > that model to > PC development, while still getting faster compile times. >=20 > j >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Skelton, Jeff [mailto:jsk...@ea...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:48 AM > To: gam...@li... > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 > Make sure there is no possibility that your programmers will=20 > ever have to do > console work in the future ;) >=20 > Jeff >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Grills, Jeff [mailto:jg...@so...]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 8:37 AM > To: 'gam...@li...' > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 >=20 > Too expensive? That's insane. The amount of programmer time=20 > it saves is > immense -- it pays for itself very rapidly. Besides, you=20 > don't need to > upgrade programmer machines nearly so often, because compile=20 > times are much > faster. In fact, on the next project I lead, I'm going to=20 > push to leave all > the programmers on the minimum spec CPU machine, and use=20 > Incredibuild to > keep them working efficiently. >=20 > j >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Emmanuel Astier [mailto:e_a...@ya...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 10:20 AM > To: gam...@li... > Subject: RE: [GD-General] IncrediBuild >=20 >=20 > I also used it for a project where compile times were > important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete > rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this > title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often... >=20 > The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ), > it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice. >=20 >=20 > We had some problems with some settings, but nothing > really important... > All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said > the cost was too high. Gosh... >=20 > It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the > test period ended... >=20 > Emmanuel >=20 > --- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a =E9crit=A0: > >=20 > > We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts > > our compile times in > > half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now > > we won't upgrade to > > MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It > > also does a much better > > job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6. > > Sometimes a normal build > > will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but > > after doing an incredibuild > > all those issues go away. > >=20 > > It has some problems with custom build steps. We > > have some projects that > > won't properly build with it (like any of our apps > > that use QT). But the > > majority of our code works well with it. > >=20 > > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and > > could make sure they > > were more diligent reducing compile time > > dependencies, that it might not be > > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and > > the package is crucial > > to improving programmer workflow. > >=20 > > Jeff Grills > > Technical Director, Austin Studio > > Star Wars Galaxies > > Sony Online Entertainment > > =20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] > > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM > > To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) > > Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild > >=20 > >=20 > > I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and > > wanted to know if anyone > > has used it ? > >=20 > > (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is > > fairly open, and discussions > > of speading up compile times is quite common even in > > SWeng ) > >=20 > > _____________________ > > Regards, Gareth Lewin > >=20 > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide > > from Thawte > > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click > > here to get a FREE > > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your > > SSL security issues. > > > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > > _______________________________________________ > > Gamedevlists-general mailing list=20 > > Gam...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > > Archives: > > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en=20 > fran=E7ais ! Yahoo! > Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are = you > planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE=20 > Thawte SSL guide > and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list=20 > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte are = you > planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE=20 > Thawte SSL guide > and find the answers to all your SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list=20 > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL=20 > security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your SSL=20 > security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU7 >=20 |
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From: <e_a...@ya...> - 2003-01-13 16:19:42
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I also used it for a project where compile times were important ( more than 30 minutes for a complete rebuild), and as we were quite a lot working on this title, we had to make a 'rebuild all' quite often... The gain was impressive ( around 4x / 5x faster ), it's really easy to use, the interface is really nice. We had some problems with some settings, but nothing really important... All the team wanted to buy it, but our manager said the cost was too high. Gosh... It was quite hard to get back to plain VC when the test period ended... Emmanuel --- "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> a écrit : > > We use it, and we couldn't live without it - it cuts > our compile times in > half or more. It only supports MSVC6, and right now > we won't upgrade to > MSVC7 until Incredbuild supports it properly. It > also does a much better > job of finding necessary dependencies that MSVC6. > Sometimes a normal build > will fail to link, or have runtime problems, but > after doing an incredibuild > all those issues go away. > > It has some problems with custom build steps. We > have some projects that > won't properly build with it (like any of our apps > that use QT). But the > majority of our code works well with it. > > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and > could make sure they > were more diligent reducing compile time > dependencies, that it might not be > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and > the package is crucial > to improving programmer workflow. > > Jeff Grills > Technical Director, Austin Studio > Star Wars Galaxies > Sony Online Entertainment > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gareth Lewin [mailto:GL...@cl...] > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 6:57 AM > To: Gamedevlists-General (E-mail) > Subject: [GD-General] IncrediBuild > > > I just saw IncrediBuild linked from flipcode, and > wanted to know if anyone > has used it ? > > (Hoping this isn't OT, but I know this list is > fairly open, and discussions > of speading up compile times is quite common even in > SWeng ) > > _____________________ > Regards, Gareth Lewin > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: FREE SSL Guide > from Thawte > are you planning your Web Server Security? Click > here to get a FREE > Thawte SSL guide and find the answers to all your > SSL security issues. > http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0026en > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-general mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557 ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com |
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From: Noel L. <ll...@co...> - 2003-01-13 19:11:10
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On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:17:18 -0800 "Grills, Jeff" <jg...@so...> wrote: > I think, if we had less programmers on the team and could make sure they > were more diligent reducing compile time dependencies, that it might not be > as beneficial. But we're not in that situation, and the package is crucial > to improving programmer workflow. Having lots of compile-time dependencies is usually a much bigger problem than long compile times. Long compile times are just one of the manifestations of a deeper problem with how the program is architected. Ignoring the problem just because compile times are more bearable now does not seem like a good long-term solution, especially not with the code for a long-lived game like a MMORPG. The refactoring and maintenance costs you'll be paying in the long term will probably dwarf any extra time spent now making sure all programmers are minimizing dependencies. Then again, that's a lot easier said than done from this side of the keyboard ;-) --Noel ll...@co... |
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