gamedevlists-general

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Frank D. <fra...@ho...>]

Hi,

These numbers sound quite high to me for an unknown developer. Is this still 
the case in the current economic situation? Game publishers probably have 
the same problems that other companies have, and might not want to invest in 
unknown companies. I suppose they could say that you have to live with 
smaller advance payments during the development process, and perhaps give 
you a higher percentage of the royalties. Does it make a large difference 
what platform you're working on? PC sales are known to be lower than console 
sales, so are these numbers much lower?

Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

Regards,
Frank

>From: "Paul Reynolds" <pa...@so...>
>Reply-To: gam...@li...
>To: <gam...@li...>
>Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 
>3D engines)
>Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:41:31 -0700
>
>It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms, schedule,
>etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything below this line is
>conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer, not exec) in the
>industry.
>
>Typically, everything is paid on deliverables (milestones). The contract is
>usually considered the first milestone. The "pure" thought is that the
>milestone payments just cover your development costs while you make a game
>for your publisher. Then you receive payment (royalties) once the publisher
>has recouped their expenses (your milestone payments). But, in my
>experience, the studio can pull in a little profit from the milestone
>payments as well. The terms of the royalties can vary wildly.
>
>So your milestone payments should at least keep your studio going since
>that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to your question, a 5 man
>project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
>(~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
>
>($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to cover salaries.
>Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and offices. As an 
>incredibly
>rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K milestone payment
>(which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget title), you could
>conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few thousand bucks. Which isn't
>bad considering you've already made payroll and paid rent. I won't even get
>into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract amendments. But, the
>reality is a five man team is going to have a rough time putting out any
>sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.
>
>Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25 for China ;op

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RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Brian H. <ho...@py...>]

>Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

There's no clear answer to this.  EVERY developer, product, 
publisher, situation, etc. is unique.  The compensation can be 
different orders of magnitude.  There's simply no "regular"=
 agreement 
that you can look at, there are just too many variables=
 involved.

Brian

[GD-General] Missing messages

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

I don't appear to be receiving all messages posted to this list and, when I
do, they come in a completely random order. Is this likely to be something
at my end, or is it a problem with the list mailer? I'm not even convinced
that the archive is getting everything, but it is certainly getting a lot
more than I am.

Anyone got any ideas?

- Neil.

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

Yeah, that kind of what I was trying to say in my first paragraph. From my
experience, there's no standard formula. Talking specific cash amounts is
where it gets tricky (and people get squeamish). None of my numbers where
based on a specific project. Just conjecture. A big asterisk should probably
go along with anything anybody says on this thread.*

I'm sure when some people saw Mr. Davis' post, they thought "5 man team"
meant five programmers. So I'm only sharing what little bit of insight I
have to what it may take to make a commercial game as an independent studio.
If you're truly serious, I believe there are professionals out there that
you can hire as your agent that will help you find contracts for your studio
or shop around your idea (be prepared to have a fairly complete demo if
you're a new studio). After you contact a lawyer first. :o)

Paul*


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Brian Hook
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 6:49 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of
well-known 3D engines)


>Anyone else would like to share info on this subject?

There's no clear answer to this.  EVERY developer, product,
publisher, situation, etc. is unique.  The compensation can be
different orders of magnitude.  There's simply no "regular" agreement
that you can look at, there are just too many variables involved.

Brian




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RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gam...@li...
> [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Paul Reynolds
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 11:42 AM
>
>[...snip..]
>
> If you're truly serious, I believe there are professionals 
> out there that
> you can hire as your agent that will help you find contracts 
> for your studio
> or shop around your idea (be prepared to have a fairly 
> complete demo if
> you're a new studio). After you contact a lawyer first. :o)
> 

Gamasutra has a couple of new articles about "Game Agents":
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030616/karch_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030618/pfeifer_01.shtml

[GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

I compiled a plain C++ application using Microsoft Visual
C++ .NET.  I sent the executable to someone, and the person
said that the program failed to execute because the DLL
"MSVCP70.DLL" was not found on their system.

Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?

This project used to be an MSVC++ 6.0 project.  The only change
I made after switching to MSVC++ 7.0 was adding plain C++
source files.  I don't use "managed memory" or other new 
language extensions.  I am not using .NET stuff in any way.

It would be painful to switch back to MSVC++ 6.0 just because
the project has a hundred source files in a nice directory
hierarchy that is reflected in the source view tree control.
(I had to write a program to generate the XML project file;
I wasn't about to do all the GUI clicking by hand!  If I 
went back to VC6, I'd have to write another program to 
form the project file.  Easy, but a bit distracting.)

I know that people can easily acquire these 7.0 DLLs, but if
someone downloads my program, and it fails to execute due to
missing these DLLs, I have already failed as a programmer.
I refuse to consider shipping DLLs.  I don't know how installing
DLLs works these days, but I hope it's more complicated than
copying to C:\Windows\System or C:\winnt\system32 or whatever.
If RealNetworks or Jupiter Co. can clobber DLLs that easily,
then people are really screwed.

Here are my questions:

(1) Can I continue to use MSVC++ 7.0 and yet compile executables
  that do not require 7.0 generation DLLs?  (For example, the
  executable could use 6.0 generation DLLs.)

(2) Okay, if I decide that going back to MSVC++ 6.0 is too
    painful, then what is the bast way to allow end-users to
    install the required DLLs?

    (I think I may have done this on my Windows 98 machine,
    because I tested the program there and it did not complain
    about needing the 7.0 DLLs...  But I forgot the steps.)

Perhaps this isn't "DLL Hell" in the strictest sense of the term,
but it does feel a little warm!

--- Colin

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Adrian C. <ce...@ce...>]

You could just link statically to the MSVC libraries. But you'd be way
better off just distributing the DLLs too. You just have to have them in the
same dir where your executable resides.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Fahey" <cp...@ea...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL


>
> I compiled a plain C++ application using Microsoft Visual
> C++ .NET.  I sent the executable to someone, and the person
> said that the program failed to execute because the DLL
> "MSVCP70.DLL" was not found on their system.
>
> Is there any way within MSVC++ .NET to change settings so that
> the dependency on 7.0 generation DLLs is eliminated?
>
> This project used to be an MSVC++ 6.0 project.  The only change
> I made after switching to MSVC++ 7.0 was adding plain C++
> source files.  I don't use "managed memory" or other new
> language extensions.  I am not using .NET stuff in any way.
>
> It would be painful to switch back to MSVC++ 6.0 just because
> the project has a hundred source files in a nice directory
> hierarchy that is reflected in the source view tree control.
> (I had to write a program to generate the XML project file;
> I wasn't about to do all the GUI clicking by hand!  If I
> went back to VC6, I'd have to write another program to
> form the project file.  Easy, but a bit distracting.)
>
> I know that people can easily acquire these 7.0 DLLs, but if
> someone downloads my program, and it fails to execute due to
> missing these DLLs, I have already failed as a programmer.
> I refuse to consider shipping DLLs.  I don't know how installing
> DLLs works these days, but I hope it's more complicated than
> copying to C:\Windows\System or C:\winnt\system32 or whatever.
> If RealNetworks or Jupiter Co. can clobber DLLs that easily,
> then people are really screwed.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> (1) Can I continue to use MSVC++ 7.0 and yet compile executables
>   that do not require 7.0 generation DLLs?  (For example, the
>   executable could use 6.0 generation DLLs.)
>
> (2) Okay, if I decide that going back to MSVC++ 6.0 is too
>     painful, then what is the bast way to allow end-users to
>     install the required DLLs?
>
>     (I think I may have done this on my Windows 98 machine,
>     because I tested the program there and it did not complain
>     about needing the 7.0 DLLs...  But I forgot the steps.)
>
> Perhaps this isn't "DLL Hell" in the strictest sense of the term,
> but it does feel a little warm!
>
> --- Colin
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

Okay, I did more Google searching and I have come
to the following conclusions:

(1) Under Windows 98 you can simply copy the
    following two files:

      (a) MSVCR70.DLL   (336 KB)
      (b) MSVCP70.DLL   (476 KB)

    to the following directory:

       C:\windows\system

    and the problem should be solved.

    NOTE:  There are a few other DLLs
    that might be required for MFC:

      (c) MFC70.DLL
      (d) MFC70U.DLL

    (I do not have these files installed 
     under Windows 98, and my non-MFC app
     compiled under MSVC7.0 works fine.)

    and I noticed the following mystery-DLL
    on my WIndows 98 machine, but apparently
    this file is not required for my particular
    application:

       (e) MSVCI70.DLL  (54 KB)



(2) Under Windows 2000, files (a) and (b) can be
    placed in the folowing location:

           c:\winnt\system32

    (NOTE: "system32", not "system" as with Win 98.)



(3) Apparently, an alternative to "installing" the DLLs
    in the offcial locations is simply putting the DLLs
    in the directory containing your application.
    Thus, you know exactly what DLL version you are
    getting.  There is no DLL slamming going on.
    The disadvantages include:

        * Redundancy : DLL may exist on the system
        * Missing upgrades and bug fixes in official DLL        


(4) Lots of developers instruct users to download
    these DLLs from their web sites to use their
    applications.

    I'm not saying this make is "right" to ask users
    to download (potentially old, potentially hacked,
    potentially virus-invested) DLLs from one's web
    site.  Even if developers directed users to the
    Microsoft web site to download these DLLs, I'm
    not sure it would be the "right" thing to do --
    especially if Microsoft required visitors to 
    get a Microsoft Passport to download those DLLs!
    (Let us hope that we won't one day need Microsoft
     Passports to literally travel.  "You papers, please!")


Anyhow, I am still interested in knowing the two things
mentioned in my previous post:

(A) Can I compile with MSVC7.0 and yet only require 
     users to have MSVC6.0 DLLs?

    If this is insane (lots of settings changes, etc)
    then I will just give up on the idea.

(B) What is the best way to make one's application work
    on systems that may not have the required DLLs?

    * Ship local version in application directory?
    * Direct user to a Microsoft link?
    * Do your own detection of whether or not the DLL is 
        present in the system directory, and then ask the
        user if he or she wants to install if the DLL is
        NOT already present?

Okay, I'm sure all of these questions expose me as an
amateur novice nOOb Hax0r wannabe hopeful grasshopper.
When will I B 1337 ?!  ROTFL! LOL!  ::^)   

--- Colin

Re: [GD-General] Missing DLL: MSVCP70.DLL

[<cas...@ya...>]

Colin Fahey wrote:
> (A) Can I compile with MSVC7.0 and yet only require
>      users to have MSVC6.0 DLLs?

3dsmax dlls are built using msvc6. Discreet provides a memory wrapper for
msvc7. Perhaps you should be able to do something similar. I think that they
have a library built with msvc6, that exports memory allocation and
deallocation functions and replace the new and delete operators with the
functions provided by that library.


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<mdr...@cy...>]

I think that many times you hear about studios in this case (milestones
payment) but that's for games being published by big publishers.

I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The company I'm working for
has shipped three games.

The first game was started in april 2000 and shipped in June 2001. The
project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not insane. The game was a
cycling management game, with interative races. You can call it niche
market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just in Europe. We had
agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the project was self-funded.
We had some royalties advances two months before the game shipped, and we
signed nearly a contract for every country in Europe. So the game sold
well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France) and didn't find a
publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5 to 10€ per game sold
(and it was sold cheaper than other games), which is quite high, but you
must take into account that it's a PC game (no royalties for console
makers) and it was sell funded so there was no risk for our publishers.

The second game was the sequel to the first. It was done during July 2001/
June 2002. No global publisher found, still it sold more than 100.000
units. In fact we had propositions, among others from a one of the two big
french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per copy + we still
self-finance till completition. Not really appealing... So, the game was
shipped by the same small publishers.

The third game was a horse racing/management game. This sport is very
popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to make, by another team as
the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The best deal we found was,
3 months before completition, 300k€ for UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We worked with other
publishers for the other countries. The main publisher was not very
active, so with those 4 countries we expect to sell just a few more copies
than 30 000. Other countries did quite well considering the sport is not
very popular, and with our previous two games we had good contracts, up to
12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in europe, and soon in USA, has
made so far about 525k€ in royalties.

We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports managers, one innovative
strategy game), and for the two sport games, we don't even try to find a
big publisher. Especially if you consider that our partners made some good
mareketing in their own countries, and we have good delas with them.

My conclusion is that you can make interessant games, deliver them on
time, have a proven quality track and sell many copies, you won't
necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to make your game. And the
milestone system is more targeted at middle to big products, especially
console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we are 6-8 per project), it's
really difficult to find that scheme of agreement : your game is not big
enough for a big publisher...


-----Message d'origine-----
De : gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] De la part de
Paul Reynolds
Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
À : gam...@li...
Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known
3D engines)

It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms, schedule,
etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything below this line is
conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer, not exec) in the
industry.

Typically, everything is paid on deliverables (milestones). The contract is
usually considered the first milestone. The "pure" thought is that the
milestone payments just cover your development costs while you make a game
for your publisher. Then you receive payment (royalties) once the publisher
has recouped their expenses (your milestone payments). But, in my
experience, the studio can pull in a little profit from the milestone
payments as well. The terms of the royalties can vary wildly.

So your milestone payments should at least keep your studio going since
that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to your question, a 5 man
project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
(~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).

($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to cover salaries.
Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and offices. As an incredibly
rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K milestone payment
(which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget title), you could
conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few thousand bucks. Which isn't
bad considering you've already made payroll and paid rent. I won't even get
into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract amendments. But, the
reality is a five man team is going to have a rough time putting out any
sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.

Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25 for China ;op

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Frank Davis
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:28 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known
3D engines)


Hi all,

(Sorry if this comes through twice)

>Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of money to develop a game
>in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you can fool them that way :)
>So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the ammount of money you (USA)
>can get from a publisher...
>I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games directly

I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it isnt so here goes..

Is there anyone that can give any information about how much a game should
earn a small developer team? I understand not too many of you are willing to
share details of your financial situation, so dont use game names if you
dont want to.

Lets say you have a team of 5 people working fulltime on a game for a couple
of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I suppose you would receive a
sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering a master, and royalties
for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?

Regards,
Frank

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RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<e_a...@ya...>]

Mais je vous connais, vous !!

Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez vendu...

Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?

Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus tard...

Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi, 

Manu



 --- mdr...@cy... a écrit : > I think
that many times you hear about studios in
> this case (milestones
> payment) but that's for games being published by big
> publishers.
> 
> I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> company I'm working for
> has shipped three games.
> 
> The first game was started in april 2000 and shipped
> in June 2001. The
> project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not
> insane. The game was a
> cycling management game, with interative races. You
> can call it niche
> market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just in
> Europe. We had
> agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> project was self-funded.
> We had some royalties advances two months before the
> game shipped, and we
> signed nearly a contract for every country in
> Europe. So the game sold
> well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> and didn't find a
> publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> to 10€ per game sold
> (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which is
> quite high, but you
> must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> royalties for console
> makers) and it was sell funded so there was no risk
> for our publishers.
> 
> The second game was the sequel to the first. It was
> done during July 2001/
> June 2002. No global publisher found, still it sold
> more than 100.000
> units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> from a one of the two big
> french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per copy
> + we still
> self-finance till completition. Not really
> appealing... So, the game was
> shipped by the same small publishers.
> 
> The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> This sport is very
> popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to
> make, by another team as
> the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> best deal we found was,
> 3 months before completition, 300k€ for
> UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We
> worked with other
> publishers for the other countries. The main
> publisher was not very
> active, so with those 4 countries we expect to sell
> just a few more copies
> than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> considering the sport is not
> very popular, and with our previous two games we had
> good contracts, up to
> 12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in europe,
> and soon in USA, has
> made so far about 525k€ in royalties.
> 
> We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> managers, one innovative
> strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> don't even try to find a
> big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> partners made some good
> mareketing in their own countries, and we have good
> delas with them.
> 
> My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> games, deliver them on
> time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> copies, you won't
> necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> make your game. And the
> milestone system is more targeted at middle to big
> products, especially
> console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we are
> 6-8 per project), it's
> really difficult to find that scheme of agreement :
> your game is not big
> enough for a big publisher...
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De :
> gam...@li...
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> De la part de
> Paul Reynolds
> Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> À : gam...@li...
> Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General]
> Prices of well-known
> 3D engines)
> 
> It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre,
> platforms, schedule,
> etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So everything
> below this line is
> conjecture based on my experience (as a programmer,
> not exec) in the
> industry.
> 
> Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> (milestones). The contract is
> usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> thought is that the
> milestone payments just cover your development costs
> while you make a game
> for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> (royalties) once the publisher
> has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> payments). But, in my
> experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> from the milestone
> payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> vary wildly.
> 
> So your milestone payments should at least keep your
> studio going since
> that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back to
> your question, a 5 man
> project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> 
> ($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just to
> cover salaries.
> Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> offices. As an incredibly
> rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an $80K
> milestone payment
> (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> title), you could
> conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> thousand bucks. Which isn't
> bad considering you've already made payroll and paid
> rent. I won't even get
> into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and contract
> amendments. But, the
> reality is a five man team is going to have a rough
> time putting out any
> sort of commercial game in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> Factor by 0.75 for Spain, 0.5 for Ukraine, and 0.25
> for China ;op
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> gam...@li...
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]On
> Behalf Of
> Frank Davis
> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:28 PM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General]
> Prices of well-known
> 3D engines)
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> (Sorry if this comes through twice)
> 
> >Obviously publishers won't gave the same ammount of
> money to develop a game
> >in spain as int USA... at least i don't think you
> can fool them that way :)
> >So perhaps we will get a 1/15 fraction of the
> ammount of money you (USA)
> >can get from a publisher...
> >I don't know it for sure, as i don't work on games
> directly
> 
> I'm not sure if this off topic, but i would guess it
> isnt so here goes..
> 
> Is there anyone that can give any information about
> how much a game should
> earn a small developer team? I understand not too
> many of you are willing to
> share details of your financial situation, so dont
> use game names if you
> dont want to.
> 
> Lets say you have a team of 5 people working
> fulltime on a game for a couple
> of months. What would be a reasonable payment? I
> suppose you would receive a
> sum on signing of the contract, a sum on delivering
> a master, and royalties
> for each sold product? Does anyone have numbers?
> 
=== message truncated === 

___________________________________________________________
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RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[<e_a...@ya...>]

OOOOOOpppsss !!

Sorry, that was obviously a personnal answer...

Damned 'answer to' mode that keep on changing !

Emmanuel




 --- Emmanuel Astier <e_a...@ya...> a écrit : >
Mais je vous connais, vous !!
> 
> Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez
> vendu...
> 
> Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?
> 
> Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
> j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus
> tard...
> 
> Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi, 
> 
> Manu
> 
> 
> 
>  --- mdr...@cy... a écrit : > I
> think
> that many times you hear about studios in
> > this case (milestones
> > payment) but that's for games being published by
> big
> > publishers.
> > 
> > I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> > company I'm working for
> > has shipped three games.
> > 
> > The first game was started in april 2000 and
> shipped
> > in June 2001. The
> > project cost was about 500k€, so that that's not
> > insane. The game was a
> > cycling management game, with interative races.
> You
> > can call it niche
> > market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just
> in
> > Europe. We had
> > agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> > project was self-funded.
> > We had some royalties advances two months before
> the
> > game shipped, and we
> > signed nearly a contract for every country in
> > Europe. So the game sold
> > well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> > and didn't find a
> > publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> > to 10€ per game sold
> > (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which
> is
> > quite high, but you
> > must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> > royalties for console
> > makers) and it was sell funded so there was no
> risk
> > for our publishers.
> > 
> > The second game was the sequel to the first. It
> was
> > done during July 2001/
> > June 2002. No global publisher found, still it
> sold
> > more than 100.000
> > units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> > from a one of the two big
> > french publishers : 100 k€ of advance + 5€ per
> copy
> > + we still
> > self-finance till completition. Not really
> > appealing... So, the game was
> > shipped by the same small publishers.
> > 
> > The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> > This sport is very
> > popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k€ to
> > make, by another team as
> > the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> > best deal we found was,
> > 3 months before completition, 300k€ for
> > UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> > advance ( 30 000 copies with 10€ per copy). We
> > worked with other
> > publishers for the other countries. The main
> > publisher was not very
> > active, so with those 4 countries we expect to
> sell
> > just a few more copies
> > than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> > considering the sport is not
> > very popular, and with our previous two games we
> had
> > good contracts, up to
> > 12-14€ per copy. So the game, who shipped in
> europe,
> > and soon in USA, has
> > made so far about 525k€ in royalties.
> > 
> > We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> > managers, one innovative
> > strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> > don't even try to find a
> > big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> > partners made some good
> > mareketing in their own countries, and we have
> good
> > delas with them.
> > 
> > My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> > games, deliver them on
> > time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> > copies, you won't
> > necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> > make your game. And the
> > milestone system is more targeted at middle to big
> > products, especially
> > console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we
> are
> > 6-8 per project), it's
> > really difficult to find that scheme of agreement
> :
> > your game is not big
> > enough for a big publisher...
> > 
> > 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De :
> > gam...@li...
> >
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> > De la part de
> > Paul Reynolds
> > Envoyé : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> > À : gam...@li...
> > Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re:
> [GD-General]
> > Prices of well-known
> > 3D engines)
> > 
> > It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre,
> > platforms, schedule,
> > etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So
> everything
> > below this line is
> > conjecture based on my experience (as a
> programmer,
> > not exec) in the
> > industry.
> > 
> > Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> > (milestones). The contract is
> > usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> > thought is that the
> > milestone payments just cover your development
> costs
> > while you make a game
> > for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> > (royalties) once the publisher
> > has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> > payments). But, in my
> > experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> > from the milestone
> > payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> > vary wildly.
> > 
> > So your milestone payments should at least keep
> your
> > studio going since
> > that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back
> to
> > your question, a 5 man
> > project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> > (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> > (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> > 
> > ($440K)/12 months = $37,000 for a milestone just
> to
> > cover salaries.
> > Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> > offices. As an incredibly
> > rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an
> $80K
> > milestone payment
> > (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> > title), you could
> > conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> > thousand bucks. Which isn't
> > bad considering you've already made payroll and
> paid
> > rent. I won't even get
> > into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and
> contract
> > amendments. But, the
> > reality is a five man team is going to have a
> rough
> > time putting out any
> > sort of commercial game in a reasonable time
> frame.
> > 
> 
=== message truncated === 

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Rob K. <who...@at...>]

Don't worry - we were able to translate with babelfish.  Give Lisa our
love too. (I think it translated that right...)

I will not buy this...

-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of
Emmanuel Astier
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 5:09 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: Publisher payments (was Re: [GD-General] Prices of
well-known 3D engines)


OOOOOOpppsss !!

Sorry, that was obviously a personnal answer...

Damned 'answer to' mode that keep on changing !

Emmanuel




 --- Emmanuel Astier <e_a...@ya...> a =E9crit=A0: >
Mais je vous connais, vous !!
>=20
> Tu ne dis pas combien de Horse Race vous avez
> vendu...
>=20
> Et ca se passe bien, la vie ?
>=20
> Bon il est un peu tard, je vais me coucher,
> j'essayerais de te mailer ou de t'appeler plus
> tard...
>=20
> Gros bisous a Lisa et a toi,
>=20
> Manu
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  --- mdr...@cy... a =E9crit=A0: > I
> think
> that many times you hear about studios in
> > this case (milestones
> > payment) but that's for games being published by
> big
> > publishers.
> >=20
> > I'd like to give a different sound of bells. The
> > company I'm working for
> > has shipped three games.
> >=20
> > The first game was started in april 2000 and
> shipped
> > in June 2001. The
> > project cost was about 500k=80, so that that's not
> > insane. The game was a
> > cycling management game, with interative races.
> You
> > can call it niche
> > market, but it sold more than 100 000 units, just
> in
> > Europe. We had
> > agents, we didn't find a global publisher, so the
> > project was self-funded.
> > We had some royalties advances two months before
> the
> > game shipped, and we
> > signed nearly a contract for every country in
> > Europe. So the game sold
> > well in Europe ( including a Top3 on PC in France)
> > and didn't find a
> > publisher in USA. The royalties rate was about 4-5
> > to 10=80 per game sold
> > (and it was sold cheaper than other games), which
> is
> > quite high, but you
> > must take into account that it's a PC game (no
> > royalties for console
> > makers) and it was sell funded so there was no
> risk
> > for our publishers.
> >=20
> > The second game was the sequel to the first. It
> was
> > done during July 2001/
> > June 2002. No global publisher found, still it
> sold
> > more than 100.000
> > units. In fact we had propositions, among others
> > from a one of the two big
> > french publishers : 100 k=80 of advance + 5=80 per
> copy
> > + we still
> > self-finance till completition. Not really
> > appealing... So, the game was
> > shipped by the same small publishers.
> >=20
> > The third game was a horse racing/management game.
> > This sport is very
> > popular in UK / France. The game costed 400k=80 to
> > make, by another team as
> > the cycling games, during Dec 2001 / Dec 2002. The
> > best deal we found was,
> > 3 months before completition, 300k=80 for
> > UK+Germany+France+Benelux in
> > advance ( 30 000 copies with 10=80 per copy). We
> > worked with other
> > publishers for the other countries. The main
> > publisher was not very
> > active, so with those 4 countries we expect to
> sell
> > just a few more copies
> > than 30 000. Other countries did quite well
> > considering the sport is not
> > very popular, and with our previous two games we
> had
> > good contracts, up to
> > 12-14=80 per copy. So the game, who shipped in
> europe,
> > and soon in USA, has
> > made so far about 525k=80 in royalties.
> >=20
> > We now have 3 games in developpment (2 sports
> > managers, one innovative
> > strategy game), and for the two sport games, we
> > don't even try to find a
> > big publisher. Especially if you consider that our
> > partners made some good
> > mareketing in their own countries, and we have
> good
> > delas with them.
> >=20
> > My conclusion is that you can make interessant
> > games, deliver them on
> > time, have a proven quality track and sell many
> > copies, you won't
> > necessarly find a publisher that will pay you to
> > make your game. And the
> > milestone system is more targeted at middle to big products,=20
> > especially console games. For a game done by 5 people ( we
> are
> > 6-8 per project), it's
> > really difficult to find that scheme of agreement
> :
> > your game is not big
> > enough for a big publisher...
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De :
> > gam...@li...
> >
>
[mailto:gam...@li...]
> > De la part de
> > Paul Reynolds
> > Envoy=E9 : samedi 7 juin 2003 02:42
> > =C0 : gam...@li...
> > Objet : RE: Publisher payments (was Re:
> [GD-General]
> > Prices of well-known
> > 3D engines)
> >=20
> > It's truly dependent on the project (scope, genre, platforms,=20
> > schedule,
> > etc.) and the resulting negotiations. So
> everything
> > below this line is
> > conjecture based on my experience (as a
> programmer,
> > not exec) in the
> > industry.
> >=20
> > Typically, everything is paid on deliverables
> > (milestones). The contract is
> > usually considered the first milestone. The "pure"
> > thought is that the
> > milestone payments just cover your development
> costs
> > while you make a game
> > for your publisher. Then you receive payment
> > (royalties) once the publisher
> > has recouped their expenses (your milestone
> > payments). But, in my
> > experience, the studio can pull in a little profit
> > from the milestone
> > payments as well. The terms of the royalties can
> > vary wildly.
> >=20
> > So your milestone payments should at least keep
> your
> > studio going since
> > that's probably your only incoming cash. So, back
> to
> > your question, a 5 man
> > project could have 1 producer (~$100k), 2 artist's
> > (~$50K ea.), 2 SE It's
> > (~$70K ea), and 1 SE III (~$100K ea).
> >=20
> > ($440K)/12 months =3D $37,000 for a milestone just
> to
> > cover salaries.
> > Throw on another $30K for administrative staff and
> > offices. As an incredibly
> > rough estimate, say you manage to negotiate an
> $80K
> > milestone payment
> > (which, I believe is reasonable for a low budget
> > title), you could
> > conceivably have a positive cash flow of a few
> > thousand bucks. Which isn't
> > bad considering you've already made payroll and
> paid
> > rent. I won't even get
> > into on time delivery bonuses/penalties and
> contract
> > amendments. But, the
> > reality is a five man team is going to have a
> rough
> > time putting out any
> > sort of commercial game in a reasonable time
> frame.
> >=20
>=20
=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D=20

___________________________________________________________
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Yahoo!
Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


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