gamedevlists-general

RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[Stefan B. <Ste...@di...>]

   FWIW, I haven't found the Intel compilers to be any better than the =
Microsoft compiler. The compilers are more than "good enough" for =
writing all your code in. If you need to access low-level functionality =
you can almost always do this using compiler intrinsics, so there's =
rarely necessary to resort to inline or out-of-line assembly.
=20
/Stefan

________________________________

From: gam...@li... on behalf of =
CAVEY GERARD
Sent: Thu 7/22/2004 4:18 PM
To: 'gam...@li...'
Subject: [GD-General] Faster and faster


Hi
I would like hear someone s experience about INTEL compilers=20
performance when targetting AMD cpus, without using SSE/SSE2.
Is it good enough ?
While some key functions (dot ,cross products ,matrices maths...) can be =
written by hand
, i would like to relay on a good compiler for the other things.
Thanks for reading
GC.


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RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...>]

Thanks for your answer Brian
 
>It has been my experience that the VC 7.1 compiler and the Intel compilers
(any recent version) produce >great code
 
I agree vc7.1 is giving us good results , and if rumors are true visual
studio 2005 (still beta) is even better.
 
>on an xGHz machine, the CPU isn't usually my bottleneck
 
Well you re lucky.Assuming you re working on a "modern game "The maths
running on CPU for IA pathfinding plus bones hierarchy concatenation plus
physics (mainly) is often expensive...
Correct me if i m wrong but most of us are limited because of the CPU .The
GPU 
is almost never 100% used  (in terms of geometry quantity).
 
>The Intel Small Matrix Library (I believe it is freely available) has a
very good C++ implementation of matrix >and vector math.  You might want to
look into it.
 
Thanks , it seems a good alternative to D3DX maths lib .With the original
AMD CPUs not supporting SSE and intel CPUs not supporting 3d now , the code
path becomes more and more complex ...
Writing assembly today is really too heavy :(
 
GC.
 
 -----Message d'origine-----
De : Bryan Wagstaff [mailto:br...@xm...]
Envoye : lundi 26 juillet 2004 01:16
A : gam...@li...
Objet : RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster


Short answer:  Speed is usually pretty good, but the only way to be certain
on YOUR app is to test it yourself.  Of course, on an xGHz machine, the CPU
isn't usually my bottleneck.
 
Longer responses below.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...] On Behalf Of CAVEY
GERARD
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:19 AM
To: 'gam...@li...'
Subject: [GD-General] Faster and faster


Hi
I would like hear someone s experience about INTEL compilers 
performance when targetting AMD cpus, without using SSE/SSE2. 

There have been several cross-CPU comparisons of compiled code, usually of
specific benchmark programs (see Google).  Sometimes one compiler wins,
sometimes another. DDJ had an article (1-2 years ago) comparing Intel 7, GCC
3.2 or 3.3, VC6, 7, and 7.1 against a few others, but it wasn't cross-CPU.  
 
, although a few passes through the Intel compiler for profile-guided
compiles usually tends to do (for me) a better job than the VC7.1 compiler;
but it takes a long time to compile.  I cannot recommend the older VC
compilers, 7.0 or (shudder) 6.0.
 
I've also used Metrowerks compilers, and in one instance where performance
made a big difference, we released multiple binaries targeting various CPUs.
Let the install program figure out which to install.
Is it good enough ? 
I feel that the performance is 'good enough' in my cases.  Usually (but not
always) the differences are visible in my performance metric with little or
no perceived difference to me.
 
But you're writing a game.  Every one of them is different.  
 
You probably have your own performance metric built in. Try it out for
yourself, and look at the performance.  Only you can decide it the
performance is good enough, in your own specific program.

 
 While some key functions (dot ,cross products ,matrices maths...) can be
written by hand
, i would like to relay on a good compiler for the other things. 
The Intel Small Matrix Library (I believe it is freely available) has a very
good C++ implementation of matrix and vector math.  You might want to look
into it.
 
Since you are targeting AMD specifically, you should also test against the
Metrowerks compiler.  Assuming your code compiles cleanly already, it
shouldn't be too hard to switch compilers.  If it doesn't compile cleanly,
you could be in for a hard time when changing compilers.  In either event,
you should go out and test them specifically on your own program.  It
shouldn't take more than two days, assuming your code compiles cleanly to
begin with.  If it doesn't, the flood of error messages will be helpful,
since it will help you estimate how much time to add to the schedule in code
cleanup.
To save you five minutes, here are the URLs:
Intel 30-day trial:
http://www.intel.com/software/products/compilers/cwin/eval.htm
<http://www.intel.com/software/products/compilers/cwin/eval.htm>  
Metrowerks 15-day trial:
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/download/request.asp?action=dl
<http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/download/request.asp?action=dl&product=CWWin9>
&product=CWWin9
bryanw.


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Re: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[Matthijs H. <mat...@al...>]

> I agree vc7.1 is giving us good results , and if rumors are true visual
> studio 2005 (still beta) is even better.

You can try out the beta version of Visual Studio 2005 "Express" for free:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx

--
Matthijs Hollemans
www.compareandmerge.com

RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[CAVEY G. <GER...@sg...>]

>You can try out the beta version of Visual Studio 2005 "Express" for =
free:
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx

Ah thank you for the information, i don t know why but i always thought =
it
was
a private beta ...

Regards.
GC


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Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
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Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.=20
Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.=20
SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au =
titre
de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.

D=E9couvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
www.sgam.fr=20

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This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
intended solely for the addressees.
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.=20
E-mails are susceptible to alteration.  =20
Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates =
shall
be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.=20

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*

Re: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[Wayne S. F. <WF...@Ju...>]

You may not want to judge the performance of the C++ compiler based solely
on the "Express" version of Visual Studio 2005. I'm not sure that the same
C++ optimizer that's included in the more advanced versions made its way
into the the "Express" edition.

            .................Wayne

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CAVEY GERARD" <GER...@sg...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 6:29 AM
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster


>You can try out the beta version of Visual Studio 2005 "Express" for free:
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx

Ah thank you for the information, i don t know why but i always thought it
was
a private beta ...

Regards.
GC


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Re: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[<ke...@dr...>]

From the FAQ:

Does Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition include the "optimizing compiler"

Yes, Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition includes the same core optimizing
compiler that will be included with all other Visual Studio 2005 editions.
It should be noted that some new expanded optimization features, including
Profile Guided Optimizations, will be available only in the Professional
and above editions of Visual Studio 2005.


So it should give you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

> You may not want to judge the performance of the C++ compiler based solely
> on the "Express" version of Visual Studio 2005. I'm not sure that the same
> C++ optimizer that's included in the more advanced versions made its way
> into the the "Express" edition.
>
>             .................Wayne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "CAVEY GERARD" <GER...@sg...>
> To: <gam...@li...>
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 6:29 AM
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster
>
>
>>You can try out the beta version of Visual Studio 2005 "Express" for
>> free:
>>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
>>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx
>
> Ah thank you for the information, i don t know why but i always thought it
> was
> a private beta ...
>
> Regards.
> GC
>
>
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> Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont
> confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.
> Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite.
> Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.
> SG Asset Management et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au
> titre
> de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.
>
> Découvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
> www.sgam.fr
>
> ********
>
> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and
> intended solely for the addressees.
> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> E-mails are susceptible to alteration.
> Neither SG Asset Management nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates
> shall
> be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified.
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GD-General] Faster and faster

[Alen L. <ale...@cr...>]

While on this topic.... I would like to point anyone using VS.NET (and
intending on using it in the future), to take a look at the beta and visi=
t
the bug report page at
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/productfeedback/default.aspx . They still
didn't fix a lot of bugs and design flaws impacting C++ development that
they introduced when switching from VS6 to VS.NET and they are apparently
eager to just ship it that way. If you are interested in improving the
future version(s), check if bugs that annoy you are still there, and repo=
rt
them. Seems like most people there are VB and C# folks, and problems rela=
ted
to C++ are largely ignored...

Alen


----- Original Message -----
From: "CAVEY GERARD" <GER...@sg...>
To: <gam...@li...>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 11:29
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Faster and faster


>You can try out the beta version of Visual Studio 2005 "Express" for fre=
e:
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
>http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/visualc/default.aspx

Ah thank you for the information, i don t know why but i always thought i=
t
was
a private beta ...

Regards.
GC


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re
de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.

D=E9couvrez l'offre et les services de SG Asset Management sur le site
www.sgam.fr

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