gamedevlists-general

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

My tuppence:

Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and your second
(and subsequent) games more expensive.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Stewart [mailto:ne...@r0...]
> Sent: 04 June 2003 12:13
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> > I'm not implying anything of the sort.
> >
> 
> Well, you kind of did, to tell the truth. :)
> 
> > I'm saying, and I'm gonna be extremly specific as to not 
> anger Phil again,
> > it's cheaper for a game starting from scratch with no 
> pre-built technology
> > to buy an already made engine that is well designed, well 
> documented and
> > suitable for the game.
> 
> Which is fair enough, although pretty much stating the 
> obvious. I thought
> your original statement was trying to make a more interesting 
> point about
> buying an engine in a much wider set of circumstances. For 
> example, I know
> several people who believe that it is always better to buy a 
> good engine,
> even in circumstances where many other people believe 
> developing an engine
> is a better idea. I thought you were going down this path, 
> and I have to say
> I'm disappointed because I would have been interested to see 
> what people
> thought about this.
> 
> 
> - Neil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
> TotalView, The best
> thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread debugging features
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Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Jorrit T. <Jor...@uz...>]

Tom Forsyth wrote:

>My tuppence:
>
>Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and your second
>(and subsequent) games more expensive.
>
<shamelessplug>

Why not go for a free engine instead (like Crystal Space of which I 
happen to be the
project manager :-)

URL: http://crystal.sf.net

</shamelessplug>


Greetings,

-- 
==============================================================================
Jor...@uz..., University Hospitals KU Leuven BELGIUM

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, he said, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.
        -- Death addresses his new apprentice
           (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
==============================================================================

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

>Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and your second
>(and subsequent) games more expensive.

I like that, very concise. :)

We actually found that buying an engine made our *first* game more
expensive, because it wasn't as good or complete as it claimed to be (don't
think I should name it) and we had to jump many hurdles to find decent
performance and build nice, clean game code that would work on all
platforms.

We actually ended up writing our own engine (in a hurry) and switched to
that during the first game, and I'm glad we did. It gave us back a lot of
the control we felt we had lost.

- Neil.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Because free engines don't include support, wont make changes to suit you
and your time schedule, and in general (I haven't used crystal space, so I'm
not giving an opinion on it at all!) they are not as good as high quality
commercial ones.

I specifically said Read:"Very good". Buying an engine which isn't a good
one will probably end up costing you more than writing one yourself.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jorrit Tyberghein [mailto:Jor...@uz...]
> Sent: 04 June 2003 12:38
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth wrote:
> 
> >My tuppence:
> >
> >Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, 
> and your second
> >(and subsequent) games more expensive.
> >
> <shamelessplug>
> 
> Why not go for a free engine instead (like Crystal Space of which I 
> happen to be the
> project manager :-)
> 
> URL: http://crystal.sf.net
> 
> </shamelessplug>
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> -- 
> ==============================================================
> ================
> Jor...@uz..., University Hospitals KU 
> Leuven BELGIUM
> 
> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, he said, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.
>         -- Death addresses his new apprentice
>            (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
> ==============================================================
> ================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
> TotalView, The best
> thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread debugging features
> you've never dreamed of, try TotalView 6 free at www.etnus.com.
> _______________________________________________
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> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
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> 

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Jorrit T. <Jor...@uz...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

>Because free engines don't include support, wont make changes to suit you
>and your time schedule, and in general (I haven't used crystal space, so I'm
>not giving an opinion on it at all!) they are not as good as high quality
>commercial ones.
>
I agree that CS still is not as good as some commercial alternatives. 
But I object
to not giving any support. We very actively support our users. There is 
a mailing list,
a message forum, an IRC channel (a VERY active one), and bug and support
trackers. In general I think we support our users VERY well.

>
>I specifically said Read:"Very good". Buying an engine which isn't a good
>one will probably end up costing you more than writing one yourself.
>
Depends. In this particular case CS is Open Source. So you can always 
modify it
to suit your needs.

Greetings,


-- 
==============================================================================
Jor...@uz..., University Hospitals KU Leuven BELGIUM

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, he said, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.
        -- Death addresses his new apprentice
           (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
==============================================================================

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> >Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, 
> and your second
> >(and subsequent) games more expensive.
> 
> I like that, very concise. :)

But a generalisation that could be right or could be wrong.

> We actually found that buying an engine made our *first* game more
> expensive, because it wasn't as good or complete as it 
> claimed to be (don't
> think I should name it) 

I totally disagree. I think you are doing a disservice to anyone that
happens to be reading this forum who buys that same engine. My $0.02

> and we had to jump many hurdles to find decent
> performance and build nice, clean game code that would work on all
> platforms.

Which is exactly why I said that buying a not-good engine is more expensive

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

> > We actually found that buying an engine made our *first* game more
> > expensive, because it wasn't as good or complete as it
> > claimed to be (don't
> > think I should name it)
>
> I totally disagree. I think you are doing a disservice to anyone that
> happens to be reading this forum who buys that same engine. My $0.02

Well, some of us don't like to shoot our mouths off before thinking about
it. It would not be prudent of me to name said engine here because:

a) We were not talking about the shortcomings of particular engines.
b) Our experience with this engine is just that: our experience. It may have
proven more than suitable for other people's projects.
c) Our experience of this engine took place over two years ago, and it may
have dramatically improved in those areas in which we found it to be lacking
(for our purposes). Naming it at this stage would be very unfair to the
engine vendor.

Also, we made a point of telling the engine provider, in great detail, why
we were not happy with the engine, something they were very keen to hear so
that they could improve it for the future. With any luck, there will be
people on this list using this engine with some of these improvements.

So please don't tell me who I am and am not doing a disservice to.

- Neil.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Probably true.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: 04 June 2003 12:30
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> My tuppence:
> 
> Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and 
> your second
> (and subsequent) games more expensive.
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> 
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Neil Stewart [mailto:ne...@r0...]
> > Sent: 04 June 2003 12:13
> > To: gam...@li...
> > Subject: Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> > 
> > 
> > > I'm not implying anything of the sort.
> > >
> > 
> > Well, you kind of did, to tell the truth. :)
> > 
> > > I'm saying, and I'm gonna be extremly specific as to not 
> > anger Phil again,
> > > it's cheaper for a game starting from scratch with no 
> > pre-built technology
> > > to buy an already made engine that is well designed, well 
> > documented and
> > > suitable for the game.
> > 
> > Which is fair enough, although pretty much stating the 
> > obvious. I thought
> > your original statement was trying to make a more interesting 
> > point about
> > buying an engine in a much wider set of circumstances. For 
> > example, I know
> > several people who believe that it is always better to buy a 
> > good engine,
> > even in circumstances where many other people believe 
> > developing an engine
> > is a better idea. I thought you were going down this path, 
> > and I have to say
> > I'm disappointed because I would have been interested to see 
> > what people
> > thought about this.
> > 
> > 
> > - Neil.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
> > TotalView, The best
> > thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread 
> debugging features
> > you've never dreamed of, try TotalView 6 free at www.etnus.com.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> > Gam...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> > Archives:
> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of 
> TotalView, The best
> thread debugger on the planet. Designed with thread debugging features
> you've never dreamed of, try TotalView 6 free at www.etnus.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
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> 

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Gareth Lewin wrote:
> 
> >Because free engines don't include support, wont make 
> changes to suit you
> >and your time schedule, and in general (I haven't used 
> crystal space, so I'm
> >not giving an opinion on it at all!) they are not as good as 
> high quality
> >commercial ones.
> >
> I agree that CS still is not as good as some commercial alternatives. 
> But I object
> to not giving any support. We very actively support our 
> users. 

There are many kinds of support, if I pay a quarter of a million dollars for
something I can expect a differant level of support, I expect the engine
writers to fix a bug I found as first priority, and for them to burn the
midnight oil for me. BTW I'm not saying that is what you get, I'm saying
that is what I expect.

Crystal Space is (AFAIK) more of a volunteer like project, so if all of you
decide to go on holiday to Australia, that is find, and I don't "deserve"
more.

And as a side note, I've only ever heard good things about CS.

> There is 
> a mailing list,
> a message forum, an IRC channel (a VERY active one), and bug 
> and support
> trackers. In general I think we support our users VERY well.

Cool.

> 
> >
> >I specifically said Read:"Very good". Buying an engine which 
> isn't a good
> >one will probably end up costing you more than writing one yourself.
> >
> Depends. In this particular case CS is Open Source. So you can always 
> modify it
> to suit your needs.
> 

You miss my point, if I have to spend time working out how the engine works,
and then spend time making changes to it, the price rises and I might as
well have started from scratch.

BTW, please people take all this with a grain of salt, I'm just voicing
opinions. Please no-one who has written a graphics engine take offense in
what I said.

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Jorrit T. <Jor...@uz...>]

Gareth Lewin wrote:

>You miss my point, if I have to spend time working out how the engine works,
>and then spend time making changes to it, the price rises and I might as
>well have started from scratch.
>
I didn't miss your point. I simply don't think that that is the case. 
Making a full
engine from scratch is still a big task. Especially if you want to cover 
things
like portability and flexibility for many environments.

So I doubt that starting from scratch is easier. Perhaps for a quick and 
dirty
engine. But for a real and full working engine... No I don't think so.

Greetings,


-- 
==============================================================================
Jor...@uz..., University Hospitals KU Leuven BELGIUM

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, he said, BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.
        -- Death addresses his new apprentice
           (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
==============================================================================

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Jay W. <woo...@Ro...>]

Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- thereby =
making your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never attempt to create =
new technology for your first first-person title. License for title one =
while building tech for title two."

(http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=3Dmagicm)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:30 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
>=20
>=20
> My tuppence:
>=20
> Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and=20
> your second (and subsequent) games more expensive.
>=20
>=20
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
>=20
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author.=20

Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

All great points. Seems like this thread has drifted into the topic of
middleware versus in house tech... 

Another thing to consider is what's adding value to your studio/business. If
you only ever use everyone else's technology and IP, you won't have any
assets of substantial value. Other than your human resources which aren't
really OWNED by the company, although it seems that way sometimes ;o).
Whether you're looking for new contracts, to be acquired, or venture
capital, you have to provide something of value to the people giving you
money. 

Besides the reduced labor costs (which is extremely debatable), wisely
chosen middleware can actually add value to your company. Perhaps because
you build your technology on top off the middleware or create a highly tuned
branch of the middleware's source. If you pick a popular middleware (ie:
Renderware), just being knowledgeable and experienced with the software is
valuable.

I've only been heavily exposed to one particular middleware package and I
have not had very positive experiences as a result. But, YMMV depending on
the software and what your goals are.


// Paul Reynolds
// Lead Programmer

// ICQ:   102704602
// AIM:   pbreynolds
// Yahoo: reynoldspaul


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Jay Woodward
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:22 PM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines


Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- thereby making
your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never attempt to create new
technology for your first first-person title. License for title one while
building tech for title two."

(http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=magicm)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:30 AM
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines
> 
> 
> My tuppence:
> 
> Buying an engine makes your first game cheaper & quicker, and 
> your second (and subsequent) games more expensive.
> 
> 
> Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.
> 
> This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
> and does not in any way imply existence of the author. 


-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by:  Etnus, makers of TotalView, The best
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Re: Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

> Another thing to consider is what's adding value to your studio/business.
If
> you only ever use everyone else's technology and IP, you won't have any
> assets of substantial value. Other than your human resources which aren't
> really OWNED by the company, although it seems that way sometimes ;o).
> Whether you're looking for new contracts, to be acquired, or venture
> capital, you have to provide something of value to the people giving you
> money.

I think the business debate on this issue is a pretty grey area, and there
are as many business reasons for buying an engine as there are for writing
your own.

Publishers will, on one hand, see the use of an established, bought engine
as a risk minimisation and, on the other hand, see the lack of proprietary
technology as a potential weakness in the developer, both of which are
unfounded because it is possible to buy an inappropriate engine and it is
certainly possible to build a great game using just the technologies
provided by bought engines.

And of course, there's the cost aspect which has already been discussed. One
thing that wasn't mentioned is that it is possible for developers to obtain
govenment R&D grants for engine development, which may offset some of the
cost. This, of course, wouldn't be available for making engine purchases. ;)

But there are also many technical reasons that should be considered when
making a choice. If a developer has a limited supply of highly technical
people, but lots of great ideas for their game, they may have no choice but
to buy in technology, and could easily thrive in this manner. For a
developer with a good supply of 'engine gurus', there are many benefits to
writing their own stuff, such as having the agility to adopt new techniques
without having to wait for an engine vendor to provide similar features,
which every other developer using that engine would then have access to.
Graphics, in particular, is far from a 'solved problem', and a clever
developer can make their mark by using techniques that have not (or will
not) hit the mainstream yet.

> Besides the reduced labor costs (which is extremely debatable), wisely
> chosen middleware can actually add value to your company. Perhaps because
> you build your technology on top off the middleware or create a highly
tuned
> branch of the middleware's source. If you pick a popular middleware (ie:
> Renderware), just being knowledgeable and experienced with the software is
> valuable.

Yep, I think this is true, and when you add it to the risk-minimisation I
mentioned earlier, buying an established engine and becoming familiar with
it can look very good to publishers. Building technology on top of
middleware is also a good approach, because you can get the best of both
worlds. I think the general trend in middleware these days is to provide
components that you can use as needed, rather than the 'this is a game
engine and you must work the way it does' approach, which means you can
provide your own (or someone else's) solutions to areas where your
middleware falls short.

> I've only been heavily exposed to one particular middleware package and I
> have not had very positive experiences as a result. But, YMMV depending on
> the software and what your goals are.

Me too, and the main reason we had to ditch it completely was because we
couldn't use just the functionality we wanted from it and do the other bits
ourselves. With the middleware we are starting to see now, this seems to be
less of a problem.

- Neil.

RE: Using middleware (RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines)

[Paul R. <pa...@so...>]

> Me too, and the main reason we had to ditch it completely was because we
> couldn't use just the functionality we wanted from it and do the other
bits
> ourselves. With the middleware we are starting to see now, this seems to
be
> less of a problem.

Which swings back to the original topic (sort of). The architecture of the
engine itself is a huge factor to consider for price. Our middleware is
incredibly monolithic with an "all or nothing" approach. It has super high
level abstraction to support several different platforms with super tight
coupling to it's subsystems' interfaces. Along with very little flexibility
for customization. For a PS2 only game that will never ship on another
platform, this is not good. Especially when the interfaces are most
obviously catering to a "von Neumann" machine, it's really bad news. (Don't
ask me, I wasn't working here when they bought it.)

We have a lot of tech on top of the middleware. But it's mostly hacks to get
it to do what we want it to do. This is the last project we'll use it on and
a lot of our technology will be rendered useless. Aside from my tinkering,
we don't have an in house effort to build an engine from scratch (that
government idea sounds interesting...). So now we're likely going to dive
into a new middleware solution. But this time we're battle scarred, seasoned
shoppers. So they'll have to show they're fancy demos to some other doe-eyed
n00bs. :op

Just be aware that if the engine supports multiple platforms, there's a high
probability you'll want to get to the guts and optimize for your specific
game (that's right) on each specific platform. So easy paths to
customization is a factor as well. Like Neil mentioned, any middleware
that's been around the block and used by more than a handful of teams, will
likely have these features by now.

// Paul Reynolds
// Lead Programmer

// ICQ:   102704602
// AIM:   pbreynolds
// Yahoo: reynoldspaul

[GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[Nalin S. <ns...@vs...>]

Hi,

This is Nalin Savara here.

I"ve just created a network on Ryze.com (see: http://www.ryze.com ) which is
a premier business network site that's called "GameDevPros" or the "Game
Development Professionals Network" to serve as an online meeting place for
game development professionals of all backgrounds to network, meet and
discuss and exchange ideas and opportunities and support each other in
meeting challenges.

Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it; but your
participation I guess is the only thing it's waiting for.

Do check it out and become part of it.

This network has game designers, programmers, digital artists, animators,
producers, audio engineers, and management & marketing specialists as
members. This is where experts feed their minds with ideas, discussions and
contacts and discuss new gaming methods, technologies and business models.

Regards,
Nalin Savara
CEO and Technical Director,
Darksun Technologies Pvt Ltd.
http://www.darksuntech.com
ns...@da...

Ph: +91-9811109407

Re: [GD-General] OT - Game Development Professionals Network

[<phi...@pl...>]

> Right now, it's somewhat small, since I've just created it;

OK, so you've spammed a number of working game development communities, to
advertise a new game development community, of which you're the controller,
and likely only member. Way to make friends and influence people.

Yeesh,
Phil

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Unless you work in Spain, where programmer salaries are only 
> about $20k a
> year.

Fair enough :)

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Or it makes your first game cheaper, quicker, and finished -- 
> thereby making your second (and subsequent) games /possible./

Good to know I'm not the only one with that opinion

> 
> A maxim from a guy who has tried it both ways:  "Never 
> attempt to create new technology for your first first-person 
> title. License for title one while building tech for title two."
> 
> (http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=magicm)

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Well, some of us don't like to shoot our mouths off before 
> thinking about
> it. 

Ouch.

> It would not be prudent of me to name said engine here because:
> 
> a) We were not talking about the shortcomings of particular engines.
> b) Our experience with this engine is just that: our 
> experience. It may have
> proven more than suitable for other people's projects.
> c) Our experience of this engine took place over two years 
> ago, and it may
> have dramatically improved in those areas in which we found 
> it to be lacking
> (for our purposes). Naming it at this stage would be very 
> unfair to the
> engine vendor.

Well, I accept all of the above, I never asked you to say "We once used
UbahEngine and it sucks, never use it". But by saying "In our experiance
uber engine, which we used 2 years ago, a few problems arised which made
buying the engine not worthwhile. The problems were foo and bar but might
have improved, as we gave the vendor a very detailed explination on what we
didn't like" could possibly help someone in the future.

Again, that's just my opinion, please take it with a bag of salt.

> So please don't tell me who I am and am not doing a disservice to.

I'm sorry you took it so badly, I didn't intend that. I just gave my
opinion, which is valid. For example when you guys picked that engine,
wouldn't you have been happy if someone with experiance with that engine had
pointed out some of said flaws ? 

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Neil S. <ne...@r0...>]

>
> Ouch.
>

;)

> Well, I accept all of the above, I never asked you to say "We once used
> UbahEngine and it sucks, never use it". But by saying "In our experiance
> uber engine, which we used 2 years ago, a few problems arised which made
> buying the engine not worthwhile. The problems were foo and bar but might
> have improved, as we gave the vendor a very detailed explination on what
we
> didn't like" could possibly help someone in the future.

I'm not completely against naming the engine, but I didn't want to do so in
my original comment because I wasn't trying to make a point about that
engine at that time (we were talking about cost), and any point I would make
about it would have to have all the necessary context to make it a fair
comment.

> I'm sorry you took it so badly, I didn't intend that. I just gave my
> opinion, which is valid. For example when you guys picked that engine,
> wouldn't you have been happy if someone with experiance with that engine
had
> pointed out some of said flaws ?

Well, I didn't take it _that_ badly, but you did effectively accuse me of
cheating everyone here out of something, which I don't think was very fair.
A more gentle approach wouldn't have hurt.

As for when we picked the engine, well, I wasn't there when it was bought,
and my heart sunk after looking at it for a few hours because I could
already see some of the problems we would have with it. But yes, I would
have been happy if someone had told the guys who did choose it about the
flaws before they parted with the cash.

- Neil.

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

> Developing games in Spain has advantages and disadvantages:
> 
> That probably covers 90% of the issues.
> 

<stir>

In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you have siestas. 

</stir>

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

><stir>
>
>In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you have siestas. 
>
></stir>
>  
>
No no,. that's a missconception :) we don't have siestas excepting, 
probably  the weekends, and  man, i work much more than 37.5 hours (over 
50-60 /week). That 37.5 is only appliable to non computer related jobs i 
assume.

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Wayne C. <wc...@re...>]

> No no,. that's a missconception :) we don't have siestas excepting,
> probably  the weekends, and  man, i work much more than 37.5 hours (over
> 50-60 /week). That 37.5 is only appliable to non computer related jobs i
> assume.

You have Spanish women though, please don't tell me that's a misconception
;)

Wayney

-Virus scanned and cleared ok

Re: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Toni <to...@4d...>]

Wayne Coles wrote:

>You have Spanish women though, please don't tell me that's a misconception
>;)
>
>Wayney
>  
>
No, no, that's true :) but dunno why spanish men find sexier non spanish 
women :o

Toni
Lead Programmer
insideo.com

RE: [GD-General] Prices of well-known 3D engines

[Matt N. <mat...@ni...>]

> <stir>
>=20
> In the EU you can't work more than 37.5 hours, in Spain you=20
> have siestas.=20
>=20
> </stir>

I don't think the regulations say you *can't* work more than 37.5 hours, =
they say you can't be *required* to work more than 37.5 hours which is =
rather different. So you can't be sacked for refusing to work more than =
37.5 hours but if you choose to work more hours that's fine.

Matt.=20

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=20