gamedevlists-general

Paradigms was RE: [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[Evan H. <eh...@at...>]

  This discussion has gotten me interested in whether anyone knows of a good
comparative reference on programming paradigms and so forth. I have recently
been looking to broaden my set of tools, especially for working on pet
projects. 

  Most books on the subject seem to be actively selling a particular
language or paradigm as a one-size fits all hammer. I am a pretty firm
believer that not-all paradigms fit all tasks equally well.

  -Evan

RE: Paradigms was RE: [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

If by "paradigms" you mean OOP vs. procedural/imperative vs. functional
vs. logic, I think there are some pretty good comparisons of these on
the net.  There's also the issue of static vs. dynamic typing in an OOP
system, e.g. Obj-C vs. C++ (actually, not entirely fair -- Obj-C
encourages static type checking but doesn't require it, another reason
why it's The Greatest LANGWIJ EVAR!).

http://www.cs.williams.edu/~andrea/cs373/Lectures/lecture5-6.pdf


-Hook

Re: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[<cas...@ya...>]

Brian Hook wrote:
> system, e.g. Obj-C vs. C++ (actually, not entirely fair -- Obj-C
> encourages static type checking but doesn't require it, another reason
> why it's The Greatest LANGWIJ EVAR!).

I've recently learned Obj-C, and completely agree with you, it's a great
language. So, why don't use it as primary language? You can still do all the
low level code in C and in the game code the small overhead of the messaging
is acceptable.

GCC is an obj-c compiler, and it's also available on mingw for win32. The
obj-c compiler is almost a preprocessor, obj-c code is internally translated
to pure C, so the code generation should be as good as in C. Are there any
games written in Obj-C?


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...


___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sorteos
Consulta si tu número ha sido premiado en
Yahoo! Sorteos http://loteria.yahoo.es

Re: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[mike w. <mi...@ub...>]

>Are there any games written in Obj-C?

wasn't most of Id's early stuff written in Obj-C?  i recall an article where
John Carmack was lamenting the fact that Id stopped using it at some point
(for quake and later games i think?)

cheers

mike w
www.uber-geek.ca

id and Obj-C was RE: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

> wasn't most of Id's early stuff written in Obj-C?

Only the tools.  DoomEd and QuakeEd were written in Obj-C, but the games
were pure ANSI C.  They didn't convert to C++ until Doom3, and I'm not
sure how that's going.

At some point QuakeEd got ported to C to run under Windows.  They had to
move to C because there was no OpenGL bindings available for Obj-C at
the time -- NeXT was busy pushing RenderMan as their graphics API.

Because John wanted/needed to start looking at hardware acceleration on
NT, he was pretty much left with no choice but to move to C in order to
use OpenGL under NT.  After the move was made, Obj-C was pretty much a
non-issue because NeXT ceased to be relevant (at the time of QuakeEd you
could still get OpenStep machines no x86 and PA-RISC).

The arrival of MacOS X and Cocoa hasn't changed anything, because I
believe most of their tools are now either commadline or integrated into
the engine itself.

Brian

Re: id and Obj-C was RE: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[BG <arc...@ma...>]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:22  PM, Brian Hook wrote:

>> wasn't most of Id's early stuff written in Obj-C?
>
> The arrival of MacOS X and Cocoa hasn't changed anything, because I
> believe most of their tools are now either commadline or integrated  
> into
> the engine itself.
>
> Brian

Well pretty much any game that Omni ports will have some amount of  
Obj-C within, although not entirely written in it...


------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
--------------------------
Copyright 2002 archie4oz email -- End User Licensing Agreement -- By  
reading the above post you grant archie4oz (email author of said listed  
party name) the right to take your money, eat your cat, and urinate on  
your house. In addition you give archie4oz (above mentioned) the right  
to use your sister in anyway he sees fit. If you do not agree to these  
terms then DO NOT READ the above email.

Re: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[<cas...@ya...>]

mike wuetherick wrote:
> >Are there any games written in Obj-C?
>
> wasn't most of Id's early stuff written in Obj-C?  i recall an article
where
> John Carmack was lamenting the fact that Id stopped using it at some point
> (for quake and later games i think?)

Yep, the QuakeEd editor was a  NEXTSTEP application and was written in
Obj-C, the other tools were plain C.


Ignacio Castaño
cas...@ya...


___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sorteos
Consulta si tu número ha sido premiado en
Yahoo! Sorteos http://loteria.yahoo.es

Obj-C was RE: Paradigms was [GD-General] Compile times/scripting/oop

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

> I've recently learned Obj-C, and completely agree with you, 
> it's a great language. So, why don't use it as primary 
> language? You can still do all the low level code in C and in 
> the game code the small overhead of the messaging is acceptable.

If my target audience was the Mac, I'd use it in a heartbeat.  The main
reasons why it's not practical for me is that I have to give up too many
good tools in order to use it.  Sad, but true -- the productivity
increase from having a great language aren't made up for by the lack of
a quality IDE, quality build tools, quality debugger, etc.

Also, it's not a "ratified" language, so there are numerous variants of
it floating around.  GCC's is the default, but I think Apple doesn't
even use GCC, they fork their own copy and then make their own versions.

Finally, one of the reasons that Obj-C is so powerful is that the
toolkits available for it are incredible.  Anyone who has developed a
GUI app using Interface Builder and Cocoa/AppKit knows exactly what I'm
talking about.  It's actually FUN putting together an interface.  I'm in
awe of how much better it is for GUI development compared to something
like Java/Swing or (ick) MFC/C++.  Night and day.  GNUStep is supposedly
coming along "pretty well", but it still has some key differences from
Cocoa, and right now I think Apple is disinclined to make Cocoa/Obj-C
available off of OS X because that's one of the few competitive
advantages they can tout to developers (at least, to developers willing
to learn it).

My first OpenGL app under Cocoa took a few hours to get up and running,
and that's with me simultaneously learning Cocoa, the Cocoa OpenGL
class, Objective-C and an entirely new development environment
(ProjectBuilder).

I can now prototype and throw together an OpenGL app under Obj-C, with
full toolbars, etc. in a matter of 30 minuets.  For hacking
visualization apps and tools, nothing comes close.

> Are there any games written in Obj-C?

I've actually heard that several MUDs have been written in Obj-C because
it lends itself so well to that type of universe.  Because of Obj-C's
ability to dynamically load not just code but entirely new classes off
disk, you can keep a MUD up and running and take down/replace/augment
selective parts of it.

Brian