gamedevlists-general — List for discussing general game development issues

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...>]

> Here I could list also a lot of the "old school" paint programs I use,
> but unless you are a serious 'graphician' I doubt the features would
> impress. Most good digital artists will already know about the likes
> of Deluxe Paint II or GrafX2, which can be found floating around in
> the public domain if you are interested.

I think you could also add ProMotion, and Aura (new name of TV-Paint):

http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/
http://www.newtek.com/products/aura/index.html

Aura is more in the paint box category, while Pro Motion is the spiritual
successor of Deluxe Paint, and is particularly good for clut based picturing
(GBA and PS2)

    Mike

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Bob <ma...@mb...>]

...

GMax is useless to developers (unless you are using 3DS Max and want to
provide a free editor for your users, for a hefty licensing fee).

TrueSpace is not well geared to game development tasks; not sure how
that option even came up.

Blender3D... if you can find a use for it, feel free. I didn't have the
patience.

MilkShape3D <http://www.milkshape3d.com> is not going to win any awards
for it's 'intuitive' UI I will grant you, but it is geared to game
development tasks with support for a large number of formats (and a
plugin architecture to allow custom formats and expansion of it's
modeling/animation functions). For $20 you won't find better options.

To compliment MilkShape there are two other programs that are very good:
Untimate Unwrap 3D <http://www.unwrap3d.com> is possibly the best UV
mapping tool available for less that $500 (UUW3D is only $30), and
CharacterFX <http://www.insanesoftware.de/CharacterFX> is a quite good
skeletal animation tool, though the rendering engine uses some quirky
OGL methods.

Another low-end 3d modeling tool I really like is Nendo, but it has been
impossible to get for some while. However, a clone of the Nendo modeler,
Wings 3D <http://www.wings3d.com> is available free. The downside of
this alternative is that it relies on some hefty libraries and suffers
from a few quirks and bugs that Nendo does not.

To me, the ultimate in high end 3d game development software packages is
Mirai <http://www.izware.com>, but it is not as well recognized as Maya
and is far from the least expensive option. Plus, with the state
izware/nichimen is in, support is nonexistent and there is little hope
that the package has a future. So you are probably best going for Maya
these days, if you are going to make that large an investment.


On paint programs... Ulead??? Not a name I associate with "useful tools"
so much as quick solutions for web designers who aren't artistically
inclined. You can blame them for most of the gaudy eyesores on the 'net.

PhotoShop is quite decent, but as stated previously, it is primarily
geared to print art. There are many pixel artists who swear by it, but I
personally would recommend Corel PhotoPaint or Paint Shop Pro for most
of the tasks people use PhotoShop for in game development. A free
alternative that is very quirky but quite capable is The Gimp
<http://www.gimp.org>.

Here I could list also a lot of the "old school" paint programs I use,
but unless you are a serious 'graphician' I doubt the features would
impress. Most good digital artists will already know about the likes of
Deluxe Paint II or GrafX2, which can be found floating around in the
public domain if you are interested.


Ultimately, I look at the initial question, posted on a game development
list, and wonder: am I just sending out yet another programmer to try
solving the need for an artist with a piece of software? Maybe the link
that is most needed is something like this: <http://www.ice.org>.


--Bob

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Eero P. <epa...@ko...>]

BG wrote:

> Discreet also provides a lightweight derivative of MAX called Gmax
> (Microsoft bundles with with Flight Simulator 2002 as well).
>
> http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/


AFAIK GMAX is targeted for the game end user. For the developper, who wants to
bundle it with his game it is not so cheap at all.

For a very low budget 3d modeller you might look at AC3D (www.ac3d.org).

For 2d graphics Gimp and Imagemagick for batch conversions etc.




		Eero

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[BG <arc...@ma...>]

Discreet also provides a lightweight derivative of MAX called Gmax=20
(Microsoft bundles with with Flight Simulator 2002 as well).

http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/

>
> But before you go for those, I would send off an email to Alias and
> Discreet. If you ask nice enough, they tend to give free eval =
editions.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sebastian Uribe [mailto:su...@it...]
>> Sent: 11 November 2002 15:05
>> To: gam...@li...
>> Subject: [GD-General] software for artwork
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork
>> for a game
>> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
>> Windows platform.
>>     I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
>> what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of
>> Photoshop). I'd
>> love to use the best, but right now our economical situation
>> isn't good
>> for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.
>>
>>     Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Sebasti=E1n Uribe
>> ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
>> su...@it...
>>

Re: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

Photoshop is well-known by many artists, but it's still really
oriented towards print. Though it's been moving more towards web
support lately, it still has a couple of major problems (.png file
support, for example) that prevent it from being a truly great tool
for game work.

A remarkable product for web, texture, and UI design is ULead's
Photoimpact. It has the best button making tools I've ever seen. In
fact, pretty much any ULead product is professional grade (if
sometimes a little weird), and an incredible value.

For 3D products, I can recommend staying away from TrueSpace. It's not
as cheap as it looks, and if you're going to spend that much, spend
the extra and buy one of the big name packages.

I've heard good things about blender3d, which has just become
completely GPL'd. As in free. It's a python-scriptable 3D design tool,
and rumor is that it's solid. I'd love to hear from others as to
whether it's really any good. It seems to be in transition right now,
so it's hard to find good information on line.

        Kent



Monday, November 11, 2002, 10:05:14 AM, gamedevlists-general-admin wrote:


> Hello all,

>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork for a gam=
e
> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
> Windows platform.
>     I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
> what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of Photoshop). I'd
> love to use the best, but right now our economical situation isn't good
> for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.

>     Thanks.

> --
> Sebasti=E1n Uribe
> ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
> su...@it...




> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557


--=20
Kent Quirk, CTO, CogniToy
ken...@co...
http://www.cognitoy.com

RE: [GD-General] software for artwork

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

Milkshape 3D is supposedly a good free 3d Modeller
(http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/index.html)

GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/) is also free.=20

But before you go for those, I would send off an email to Alias and
Discreet. If you ask nice enough, they tend to give free eval editions.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastian Uribe [mailto:su...@it...]
> Sent: 11 November 2002 15:05
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] software for artwork
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hello all,
>=20
>     I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork=20
> for a game
> (3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
> Windows platform.
>     I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
> what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of=20
> Photoshop). I'd
> love to use the best, but right now our economical situation=20
> isn't good
> for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.
>=20
>     Thanks.
>=20
> --
> Sebasti=E1n Uribe
> ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
> su...@it...
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
>=20

[GD-General] software for artwork

[Sebastian U. <su...@it...>]

Hello all,

    I'm looking for some cheap software for producing artwork for a game
(3D models and scenes, 2D textures, backgrounds, etc.) for using on
Windows platform.
    I'd like to know which tools you're using for your projects, and
what alternatives exist (i.e. Paint Shop Pro instead of Photoshop). I'd
love to use the best, but right now our economical situation isn't good
for buying multi-thousand-dollar software.

    Thanks.

--
Sebastián Uribe
ITOCHU Argentina S.A.
su...@it...

RE: [GD-General] Some portability questions

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

> Nothing wrong with answer (1) - it's the way I've done it in 
> the past. Zealots would advocate you use a union rather than 
> a cast, but we've had that particular religious war.

Since there's no downside to using a union, I use unions now for that
type of thing.

I've actually found some architectures where casting definitely is bad.
For example, this won't be valid:

char *x;
char *y = x + 5;
int i;

i = ( int ) x;
i += 5;
x = (char*)i;

if ( x != y ) 
   printf( "Error" ); //this gets hit

Even though int and void * are the same sizes, the pointer arithmetic is
handled specially because of offset bits in the upper bits of a pointer.

However, not many people use UNICOS on Cray systems, so that's not a
real big concern =)

In fact, the Cray is easily the most disastrous system I've had to try
to get things working on in terms of portability.  Don't ask.  So many
things wrong with it I don't even know where to start....

> I thought the early Alphas were even worse - they didn't have 
> bytes. So string handling all had to be emulated with shifts 
> and masks and nastiness like that.

They didn't have native bytes, so the compiler was responsible for doing
the appropriate thing behind your back.  The bad part was that the
operation wasn't guaranteed to be atomic, which could cause problems if
you were doing multithreaded kernel hacking.  The 21164 and later added
native byte manipulation I think.

Brian

RE: [GD-General] Some portability questions

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Nothing wrong with answer (1) - it's the way I've done it in the past.
Zealots would advocate you use a union rather than a cast, but we've had
that particular religious war.


I thought the early Alphas were even worse - they didn't have bytes. So
string handling all had to be emulated with shifts and masks and nastiness
like that.

I think your answer is pretty acceptable though - stuff 'em. No mass-market
architecture is going to make that mistake again in a hurry.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hook [mailto:bri...@py...]
> Sent: 08 November 2002 18:58
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] Some portability questions
> 
> 
> Okay, these are fun ones.  Let's do the easy one first.
> 
> 1.) How do you portably and safely byte swap a floating point value?
> 
> Disregarding the whole "some architectures aren't IEEE and/or 
> don't have
> 32-bit floats" issue, it seems like the right way to do this safely is
> to cast the bits to an integer value, swap those, and store out as
> integer.  To load a floating point value, you perform the inverse, and
> pray that you didn't load some invalid thing that will generate an FP
> exception on some systems.
> 
> I hadn't really thought about this until I started working on POSH
> (Portable Open Source Harness).
> 
> 2.) How do you cleanly handle architectures where, say, all data types
> are either 1-byte or 8-bytes.  The Cray and early 21064 
> Alphas were like
> this (actually, I don't think early Alphas even had atomic <8-byte
> read/writes).
> 
> Answer: it's a Cray, dude.  Shut up.  If I can't figure out a clean,
> safe way of handling this, I may just punt on those architectures.
> 
> Brian

[GD-General] Some portability questions

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

Okay, these are fun ones.  Let's do the easy one first.

1.) How do you portably and safely byte swap a floating point value?

Disregarding the whole "some architectures aren't IEEE and/or don't have
32-bit floats" issue, it seems like the right way to do this safely is
to cast the bits to an integer value, swap those, and store out as
integer.  To load a floating point value, you perform the inverse, and
pray that you didn't load some invalid thing that will generate an FP
exception on some systems.

I hadn't really thought about this until I started working on POSH
(Portable Open Source Harness).

2.) How do you cleanly handle architectures where, say, all data types
are either 1-byte or 8-bytes.  The Cray and early 21064 Alphas were like
this (actually, I don't think early Alphas even had atomic <8-byte
read/writes).

Answer: it's a Cray, dude.  Shut up.  If I can't figure out a clean,
safe way of handling this, I may just punt on those architectures.

Brian

[GD-General] Admin: Reply To Change

[Tom H. <to...@3d...>]

Hi again folks!

As of this email, we're changing over the following mailing lists to 
reply-to-list:

gdalgorithms
gd-consoles
gd-design
gd-general
gd-linux
gd-windows

A vote was conducted on the algorithms list since that has the highest 
number of subscribers (~2000) and most of the people on the other lists are 
also on the algorithms list. Of the responses I got, 30 wanted us to change 
and 4 wanted us to stay the way we were. I haven't gotten another vote for 
10 hours, so I figure that's probably all the votes we're going to get.


Thanks for your time!

Tom

Re: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[brian h. <bri...@py...>]

> Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....

gamedevlists-general is a dumping ground for pretty much anything even 
tangentially related to games development.  gamedevlists-design is more 
oriented toward game design itself.

> BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it 
> crossplatform (linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??

Another one to look at is wxWindows.

-Hook

Re: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Thatcher U. <tu...@tu...>]

On Nov 07, 2002 at 04:09 +0100, Per L?vmo wrote:
> 
> Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a stratigy-game. The
> grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for scripts, I was
> wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
> customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike app). Since I
> really don't need to reinvent the weel...
> 
> Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there applicable for this
> task ??

I'm not a regular user, but I've heard some good things about
Scintilla:

http://www.scintilla.org/

It's an open-source cross-platform source-editing component, that some
people have used to build little IDE's for various scripting
languages.

-- 
Thatcher Ulrich
http://tulrich.com

RE: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Grills, J. <jg...@so...>]

We use QT pretty extensively here.  I wrote a widget for it that runs =
our
game loop and renders the world, so we basically have the whole game
embedded inside the QT application.  You could do something like that =
to let
you interactively edit the game logic/data while it's running and see
immediate feedback, which has wonderful payoff in productivity.

j
Jeff Grills
Star Wars Galaxies
Technology Director, Austin Studio
Sony Online Entertainment

-----Original Message-----
From: Per L=F8vmo [mailto:Per...@ep...]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:10 AM
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)


Hi folks,

Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....

Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a stratigy-game. =
The
grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for scripts, I was
wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike app). =
Since I
really don't need to reinvent the weel...

Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there applicable for =
this
task ??

BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it crossplatform
(linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??

Regards
Per
-----------
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"

Re: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Kent Q. <ken...@co...>]

Would you consider simply hooking into an open source tool's plugin
architecture? If so, you should definitely look into Eclipse:

http://www.eclipse.org/

and JEdit:

http://www.jedit.org

Eclipse is really an IDE, while JEdit is more of a text editor.
There's even an article entitled "The Case for Using Eclipse
Technology in General Purpose Applications."

http://www.genuitec.com/products/eclipseapplicationframework.pdf

They're both Java-based, which may or may not matter to you.

   Kent


Thursday, November 7, 2002, 10:22:37 AM, gamedevlists-general wrote:

> We just bought Sourceview from http://www.tetradyne.com and are very ha=
ppy
> with it. But it's just the edit box bit, you'll have to implement the a=
pp
> itself :)

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Per L=F8vmo [mailto:Per...@ep...]
>> Sent: 07 November 2002 15:10
>> To: gam...@li...
>> Subject: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hi folks,
>>=20
>> Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....
>>=20
>> Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a=20
>> stratigy-game. The
>> grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for=20
>> scripts, I was
>> wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
>> customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike=20
>> app). Since I
>> really don't need to reinvent the weel...
>>=20
>> Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there=20
>> applicable for this
>> task ??
>>=20
>> BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it=20
>> crossplatform
>> (linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??
>>=20
>> Regards
>> Per
>> -----------
>> "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"
>>=20
>>=20
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20
>> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
>> http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
>> Gam...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
>> Archives:
>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
>>=20


> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20
> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
> http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
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--=20
Kent Quirk, CTO, CogniToy
ken...@co...
http://www.cognitoy.com

RE: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Jamie F. <ja...@qu...>]

our scripts are simply text files, and we assume people have text editors=
 :)

we use QT for our editor (http://www.qubesoft.com/q/studio.php). it
certainly speeds development up, although i believe it's not as customisa=
ble
as might be ideal.

jamie


-----Original Message-----
From: gam...@li...
[mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of
Per L=F8vmo
Sent: 07 November 2002 15:10
To: gam...@li...
Subject: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)


Hi folks,

Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....

Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a stratigy-game. The
grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for scripts, I was
wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike app). Since=
 I
really don't need to reinvent the weel...

Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there applicable for thi=
s
task ??

BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it crossplatform
(linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??

Regards
Per
-----------
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"


-------------------------------------------------------
This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm
Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
_______________________________________________
Gamedevlists-general mailing list
Gam...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
Archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557

RE: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

CodeWright (http://www.premia.com/) is a good general-purpose editor =
with no
particular language bias.

If you're thinking of writing your own scripting language, I heartily
recommend you look at one of the existing ones. Saves you a lot of =
work.
We're using Python, but I've also heard good things about Java and LUA.


Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per L=F8vmo [mailto:Per...@ep...]
> Sent: 07 November 2002 15:10
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)
>=20
>=20
> Hi folks,
>=20
> Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....
>=20
> Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a=20
> stratigy-game. The
> grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for=20
> scripts, I was
> wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
> customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike=20
> app). Since I
> really don't need to reinvent the weel...
>=20
> Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there=20
> applicable for this
> task ??
>=20
> BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it=20
> crossplatform
> (linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??
>=20
> Regards
> Per
> -----------
> "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20
> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
> http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
>=20

RE: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

We just bought Sourceview from http://www.tetradyne.com and are very =
happy
with it. But it's just the edit box bit, you'll have to implement the =
app
itself :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per L=F8vmo [mailto:Per...@ep...]
> Sent: 07 November 2002 15:10
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)
>=20
>=20
> Hi folks,
>=20
> Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....
>=20
> Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a=20
> stratigy-game. The
> grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for=20
> scripts, I was
> wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
> customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike=20
> app). Since I
> really don't need to reinvent the weel...
>=20
> Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there=20
> applicable for this
> task ??
>=20
> BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it=20
> crossplatform
> (linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??
>=20
> Regards
> Per
> -----------
> "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20
> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
> http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?palm0001en
> _______________________________________________
> Gamedevlists-general mailing list
> Gam...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D557
>=20

[GD-General] Development tool (in-house built)

[<Per...@ep...>]

Hi folks,

Not sure wether this topic belongs here in general, or in design....

Looking into the subject of creating design tool for a stratigy-game. The
grapical part is OK, but when it comes to the editor for scripts, I was
wondering if perhaps the best thing was to use an alredy exiting
customizeble editor (I'm thinkin' of makein' an VC look-alike app). Since I
really don't need to reinvent the weel...

Do you know any good free/opensource editors out there applicable for this
task ??

BTW I'm thinkin' also to use QT(by Troll Tech) to make it crossplatform
(linux,fbsd,win), any thoughts on that ??

Regards
Per
-----------
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh"

RE: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[Brian H. <bri...@py...>]

> Night depression), but I thought Brian was offering to
> end the "reinventing the wheel" pattern by posting a
> definitive header file that should satisfy the needs
> of most cross-platform developers.

That's exactly what i'm saying.  It's obvious that this problem has been
solved before.  In lots and lots of different ways.  In fact, if you
look at any popular open source library, you'll see a "configurator"
file that basically does environment inference.  SDL, Lua, Apache,
MySql, zlib, libpng, ijg, Python, Mesa, Qt, wxWindows, etc.  The list
goes on, and each of them re-invent the wheel.

And for many of the GPL/LGPL ones, if you take their wheel, you've
"infected" your own source base in the process.  And, of course, a lot
of those wheels are overkill (support for PDP-11); incompatible (need
C++); encumbered (GPL/LGPL); difficult to use (require manual definition
of key constants); difficult to integrate (don't use prefixes and thus
pollute the namespace); etc.

They all work well for their intended purposes, but excising just the
configuration elements can be time consuming and painful.

> The reason these
> devlopers "rolled their own" header files was because,
> I suppose, a standard header file had never been
> created or published.  

Exactly.  The mere fact that something as obvious as a comprehensive
central repository for compiler defined constants on various
architectures doesn't exist is pretty damning.

Thankfully someone is at least making an effort:

http://predef.sourceforge.net/

I have no idea how anyone finds the above, because it didn't turn up on
any of my searches until about an hour into this last night, several
pages back.  In fact, I still have trouble having it show up in a search
engine when entering words straight off the page.

It also lacks comments on where/how/when things are defined -- the
constants are both compiler and target platform dependent.  So _WIN32
might be defined on MSVC, but it's __WIN32__ on Borland.

But at least someone has recognized the value of having this documented.

> and algorithms, perhaps GOSH will save developers from having 
> to enter the world of arcane compiler variables and 
> directives.  Sure, there will be people that want custom 
> headers, just as some people need to avoid STL.

That's my intention.  And it will be totally unencumbered.  It's a
frigging header file, header files shouldn't haver licenses =)

That said, it's possible that it would expand over time to include other
basic functionality that you would expect, the obvious ones being
endianess utilities and architecture reporting.  There aren't that many
different ways to write "Swap16" and "Swap32", yet everyone does it all
the time.  Sometimes with functions, sometimes with macros, sometimes
with shifts/masks, sometimes with unions/swaps, etc.  And a generic
"Give me a string that tells me what platform this is" would be nice.

And, of course, all optional.  But that's for another day.

Brian

Re: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

Colin Fahey <cp...@ea...> wrote:

> I might be wrong here (I'm still recovering from Election
> Night depression)
[...]

Don't worry, a couple of of white-dressed very nice men will come in a few
minutes to take you a much better place where you will be very happy and
everything will be all right. ;-)

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[Colin F. <cp...@ea...>]

2002 November 6th
Wednesday

> > This is something that should have been mostly figured out years ago,
> > and yet everyone rolls their own.
> [...]
> > Anyway, I'm writing a single generic header file that's going to be
> > used by all of our ANSI C libraries,
>
> You asked the question, and then indirectly answered it yourself. The
wheel
> was invented a long time ago, but there are hundreds of different wheels
in
> the market today.

I might be wrong here (I'm still recovering from Election
Night depression), but I thought Brian was offering to
end the "reinventing the wheel" pattern by posting a
definitive header file that should satisfy the needs
of most cross-platform developers.  The reason these
devlopers "rolled their own" header files was because,
I suppose, a standard header file had never been
created or published.  Just as the initiative that
led to the Standard Template Library (STL) now saves
many developers from having to make the same basic containers
and algorithms, perhaps GOSH will save developers
from having to enter the world of arcane compiler
variables and directives.  Sure, there will be people
that want custom headers, just as some people need to
avoid STL.

Anyhow, as far as having "hundreds of different wheels in
the market today", it's not because consumers desire
variety.  No, it's because "The Man" knows that
open standards and compatability might mean that His
products actually need to compete for consumer's
cash.  "The Man" is not interested in the welfare
of the consumer beyond the ability to produce more
things to be consumed, and the ability to buy stuff
(preferably invisible stuff, like derivative stocks
and phone sex).

So, we have the Sony wheel, with its memory stick,
funky cables, and wacky batteries.
Then there's the Microsoft wheel, which requires you to
get a ".NET Passport", a "hotmail" account and spam, and
always keep your wheel online so it can call home.
The MSN 8.0 wheel is just as good as the AOL 8.0 wheel.
The Cingular wheel allows you to drive around a little
more next month if you didn't drive around so much this month,
like that's an excuse to switch from some other wheel.
Verizon has a wireless wheel, but to have any fun
with it you have to get a Microsoft wheel and pay
money for "Get It Now!".  (AT&T also has a wireless
wheel, but anyone can mess with their own wheel.)
RealNetworks has the "Real One" wheel, which gathers
information about where the wheel has been, a lot
like the Microsoft Media Player wheel does.
GameCube, PS2, and XBox wheels don't work together
at all; you have to choose where you want to
roll, unless you're willing to buy all three
wheels.  For all the wheels mentioned above, you
should buy the wheel you see the most on television,
especially if the wheel is shown next to a popular
but totally unrelated wheel.  Vote for the wheel
that will lower taxes, and then freak out when
hospitals, schools, parks, libraries, roads,
homeless shelters, clinics, fire stations, and police
stations start closing.  Forget about domestic issues
and the economy, and expand programs to "defend"
our wheels against vague threats halfway around
the globe, without the support of most wheels in
the civilized world.

The true dream of "The Man" is to create an attractive
wheel whose operation is completely secret, and then
achieve market saturation by dumping these wheels all
over the world for free (or far below cost), and then
license and lease the ability to make the wheels roll.
Only through partnership with "The Man" can you hope
to compete with others who are already partners with
"The Man".  Eventually, when a partner of "The Man"
becomes really successful, "The Man" will assimilate
the essence of the partner just to eliminate the gap
between "The Man" and pure profit.

That's the Amazing(r) Story(c) of "The Man(sm) and His Wheels(tm),
LLP", all rights reserved, patent pending, registered trademark,
copyright, etc.

If you do not agree to the terms of this e-mail,
OR CRAZY LEGAL PARAGRAPHS WRITTEN IN ALL UPPERCASE LETTERS,
or any of the 1000 paragraphs in the EULA that you
couldn't possibly have read in the 1.3 seconds before
you finally preceive and immediately press the
"I Agree" button, then return all materials in
the original packaging to the manufacturer for a
"full refund"(*), in the form of a voucher that allows
you to purchase some of our other products.
Please allow 8 to 200 weeks for delivery.
Not responsible for goods damaged or lost in the mail.
Before returning any product, you must notify us
in writing, and you must register online with a
telemarketing database.  You must send the original
store receipt, a notarized affadavit, a self-addressed
stamped envelope, tax returns, and medical records.
If, God forbid, there's actually competition in this
domain, we will charge an early termination fee when
you finally wake up and switch to a better product.
If you fail an arbitrary credit check, we'll increase
the cost of the product by 50% as a convenience to you,
and this amount is non-refundable even if you return
the product.

  [ ] I Disagree, even though I drove all the way to
the computer store, paid $400 for this software,
have a strong desire to do something productive
with the software, and already did most of the
installation steps.  There was a tiny clause in
the EULA that I just cannot accept, despite the
fact that the overwhelming elements of the program
do just what I want.  Sure, the next best software
out there may be used by only 2% of the market,
but I'm willing to enter obscurity and alienation
if it means that GiantCorporation won't make me
make yet another concession in my privacy.
I know that eventually the OS will fundamentally
invade my privacy, and checkboxes will revert to
allowing full disclosure, and minor incidental
software upgrades will totally change the agreements,
but I'll take a silly stand against these things
even when the federal government will let
GiantCorporation do whatever it wants anyhow.

  [ ] I Agree.  Okay, I didn't really read the
EULA.  I trust that GiantCorporation will do what's
best for me.   I kind of like WWW sites that greet
me by name.  The targeted advertising and e-mail
is just great.  Actually, it's kind of reassuring
to know that GiantCorporation is checking if I
have any pirated music, images, or software on my
computer, and checking my documents for any
anti-establishment talk.  When ObscureCorp enforces
an all-encompassing patent on "interactive software",
I'll automatically be billed for royalties.
In general, renting is better than buying; it
keeps me from owning things, and I get to spend
money on an ongoing basis and gives me a thrill of
imagining what might happen if I lost my job.
Maybe I can save some money if I leased some
of my software on an hourly basis.  I'm hoping
that GiantCorporation can devise a closed system
on my own desktop, monitoring all files, and
managing my life -- like I'm part of a giant
club, where everyone likes the same music, movies,
video games, and GiantCorporation's version of
the news.  It's easier when we're all the same!
I hope GiantCorporation makes us all the same,
of a single mind, at equilibrium, in perfect
harmony with GiantCorporation.  Yes, I Agree!


--- Colin
cp...@ea...

RE: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[Gareth L. <GL...@cl...>]

I personally advocate using a very common one, for example if you use
stlport (Which a lot of us do) use theirs, it's tried and tested and works.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> Sent: 06 November 2002 11:03
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: Re: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration
> 
> 
> brian hook <bri...@py...> wrote:
> 
> > This is something that should have been mostly figured out 
> years ago,
> > and yet everyone rolls their own.
> [...]
> > Anyway, I'm writing a single generic header file that's going to be
> > used by all of our ANSI C libraries,
> 
> You asked the question, and then indirectly answered it 
> yourself. The wheel
> was invented a long time ago, but there are hundreds of 
> different wheels in
> the market today.
> 
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm 
> Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size!
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-general
> Archives:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=557
> 

Re: [GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

brian hook <bri...@py...> wrote:

> This is something that should have been mostly figured out years ago,
> and yet everyone rolls their own.
[...]
> Anyway, I'm writing a single generic header file that's going to be
> used by all of our ANSI C libraries,

You asked the question, and then indirectly answered it yourself. The wheel
was invented a long time ago, but there are hundreds of different wheels in
the market today.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

[GD-General] Minor rant - cross-platform configuration

[brian h. <bri...@py...>]

In the process of working on some of our internal source that I will 
eventually be open sourcing, I needed to come up with a "config.h" that 
handles per-platform dependencies.

Looking at the plethora of open source libraries I use -- zlib, libpng, 
ijg, Lua, SDL, etc. -- I was appalled at the amount of repeated work 
done for the most basic task: configuring your build environment and 
targets.

This is something that should have been mostly figured out years ago, 
and yet everyone rolls their own.  Every project has a header file that 
basically is chock full of this kind of loveliness:

#if defined _WIN32 || defined __WIN32__
#if defined __BORLANDC__ || defined _MSC_VER
#if EXPORTING_DLL
#define PUBLIC_API __declspec(dllexport)
#elif IMPORTING_DLL
#define PUBLIC_API __declspec(dllimport)
#endif
#endif
#endif

#ifndef PUBLIC_API
#define PUBLIC_API
#endif

.
.
.
PUBLIC_API void MyLib_SomeFunction( void );

And then we have similar drills for type sizes, compile time 
assertions, operating system, compiler, CPU, endianess, you name it.  
Configuring 64-bit types; calling conventions; etc.

It's not rocket science.  It's just tedious crap that everyone has to 
write from scratch and learn the hard way.  Simple things aren't so 
simple -- "How do I know if I'm compiling for MacOS?"  or "What kind of 
endianess is this architecture?"

For example, if "__sun" is defined, you cannot assume Solaris nor can 
you assume Sparc.  You have to look at the __sparc/sparc and __SVR4 
constants, because you may be on Solaris/x86 or SunOS for Sparc or even 
68K/x86.  A lot of people assume that __MWERKS__ means "MacOS", but 
that's not true either.  There's no universal constant for MacOS X, so 
you have to looked __APPLE__ and __APPLE_CC__ or something else if 
__MWERKS__ is defined.  

If __mips is defined, it may mean many different things, but a lot of 
people will assume immediately "Irix" and "big endian".  Can't do that.

Borland defines __WIN32__, but not _WIN32.  MSVC is the opposite.  God 
knows what's going on with Watcom these days, but sadly enough, people 
still use it.

And don't get me started on MingW and Cygwin.

Bah.  It's depressing.

Anyway, I'm writing a single generic header file that's going to be 
used by all of our ANSI C libraries, and I'll open source that 
hopefully to help others avoid the frustration as well.

Current working name is "gosh.h" for Generic Open Source Header.  I'm 
trying very hard to make it "plug and play" -- simply including it will 
automagically setup everything, so you don't have to deal with a bunch 
of -DMAGIC_CONSTANT=x or "./configure" and what not.

Adjunct to this rant -- so far I've only found one site (off 
sourceforge) that even tries to catalog all the various compiler 
definitions for different operating systems, compilers, and 
architectures.  

-Hook