Thread: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls
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From: <ge...@ub...> - 2003-04-04 20:12:03
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i have yet to find a single console game that provides even remotely as good of a control scheme as the good old keyboard mouse combo. first person simply does NOT work on a console - goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless 'nudging' that you have to do to try and get the cursor centered on someone to shoot them is useless. i didn't find medal of honour any better... you put someone on a console playing the same game against someone on a keyboard and mouse and a pc - and the pc player will be mopping the floor with the console player...i can guarantee that. didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any different. the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period. console manufacturers simply created bad controls... they work for some types of games, driving games, etc but for first person - simply doesn't work. mike w www.uber-geek.ca >I didn't go into detail on algorithms, but i like >the Metroid control >system. It isn't an FPS control system, and the >game's not an FPS :) I have >one niggle regarding the interaction of scanning >and combat, though. > >I still reckon the grandaddy is goldeneye :) halo >worked well, timsplitters >i've not played much. > >jamie > > >-----Original Message----- >From: >gam...@li... >[mailto:gam...@li...]On >Behalf Of >Javier Arevalo >Sent: 04 April 2003 15:48 >To: gam...@li... >Subject: [GD-Design] FPS console controls > > >The issue of FPS controls in console games just >came up in the algorithms >list, but it seems more appropriate here. People >mentioned Halo and >Timesplitters as good examples (I personally >disagree about TS), and Metroid >as a bad example. However, in Metroid the gameplay >is well adapted to the >(limited) control scheme. > >So, well, discuss... > > Javier Arevalo > Pyro Studios > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: >Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of >bandwidth! >No other company gives more support or power for >your dedicated server >http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ >_______________________________________________ >Gamedevlists-design mailing list >Gam...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design >Archives: >http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556 > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: >Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of >bandwidth! >No other company gives more support or power for >your dedicated server >http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ >_______________________________________________ >Gamedevlists-design mailing list >Gam...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design >Archives: >http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556 > > |
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From: <ge...@ub...> - 2003-04-04 23:41:37
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>> first person simply does NOT work on a console - >goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless >'nudging' that you have to do to try and get the >cursor centered on someone to shoot them is >useless. > >You sound like a PC Gamer, the goldeneye controls >were fantastic IMO. >Most of your problems were probably related to >co-ordination of your >hands. If you have not used a gamepad much you >_will_ obviously find it >different to what you are used to, the "old >keyboard mouse combo". still doesn't get rid of the endless 'nudging' that you have to do to try and aim at enemies. i've seen players that spent WAAAAY to much time playing games like golden-eye and medal of honour STILL having problems with this (in particular). you simply can not provide the kind of sensitivity or accuracy that a mouse can with the console stick. but again, apples and oranges. having auto-lock definitely improves the situation, but also reduces the feeling of 'skill' that the player gets from personally aiming and taking out the baddies in the game...almost like cheating... but again, yes i'm a PC gamer - and i've only ever seen the playstation controller. i haven't even SEEN an xbox outside of a store or xbox booth, let alone played one - but that's a whole different discussion :} cheers mike w www.uber-geek.ca |
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From: Troy G. <Tr...@cs...> - 2003-04-07 20:08:32
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> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have > shooting at its Interestingly, this is exactly what turned me off about the game: scanning. To me, this a "tedium task" that is best left to computers -- and I would imagine computers in MP's world would be sufficiently qualified to scan the room on their own and then let me know about all the interesting stuff. Of course, then it wouldn't be a "game". Hmph. I will gladly except, though, that I may be wrong on this point. The out-pouring of recognition and honours for this title clearly indicate alot of people think it is particularly good. So, I simply consider myself to have "missed that boat." Troy Developer Relations Criterion Software www.csl.com |
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From: Brian H. <ho...@py...> - 2003-04-04 20:29:04
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>didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any >different. the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period. = console >manufacturers simply created bad controls... Forgive me for sounding harsh, but given that numerous people= have lauded Halo's controls -- including hardcore FPS players -- and= you haven't even seen it, doesn't it seem a little extreme to flat= out blow it off as "simply doesn't work" when, in fact, it does? -Hook |
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From: Dan T. <da...@cs...> - 2003-04-04 21:55:14
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Judging from the reactions from everyone I talk to who do both, Console FPS controls are adequat(sp?) for playing against other entites bound by the same control scheme. However I have noticed that people who only play FPS on consoles regard themselves as ultimate when they whip everyone on XBox Live or what have you, and those who play with a mouse and keyboard consider themselves ultimate when they mop up in counterstrike. The few times I have seen crossover where the same person plays extensivly with both schemes, they say that the mouse and keyboard wins. However I don't think this thread really meant to go into that debate (even though I added to it). From what I hear the Halo style is the best for a console, its just that a good mousers will in fact mop the floor with the blood of a good console player. -Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hook" <ho...@py...> To: <gam...@li...> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:28 PM Subject: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls > >didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any > >different. the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period. console > >manufacturers simply created bad controls... > > Forgive me for sounding harsh, but given that numerous people have > lauded Halo's controls -- including hardcore FPS players -- and you > haven't even seen it, doesn't it seem a little extreme to flat out > blow it off as "simply doesn't work" when, in fact, it does? > > -Hook > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: > Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! > No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server > http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-design mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU6 > > |
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From: Jamie F. <ja...@qu...> - 2003-04-07 10:25:18
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I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is. Jamie -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of Dan Thompson Sent: 04 April 2003 23:06 To: gam...@li... Subject: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls Judging from the reactions from everyone I talk to who do both, Console FPS controls are adequat(sp?) for playing against other entites bound by the same control scheme. However I have noticed that people who only play FPS on consoles regard themselves as ultimate when they whip everyone on XBox Live or what have you, and those who play with a mouse and keyboard consider themselves ultimate when they mop up in counterstrike. The few times I have seen crossover where the same person plays extensivly with both schemes, they say that the mouse and keyboard wins. However I don't think this thread really meant to go into that debate (even though I added to it). From what I hear the Halo style is the best for a console, its just that a good mousers will in fact mop the floor with the blood of a good console player. -Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hook" <ho...@py...> To: <gam...@li...> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:28 PM Subject: Re: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls > >didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any > >different. the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period. console > >manufacturers simply created bad controls... > > Forgive me for sounding harsh, but given that numerous people have > lauded Halo's controls -- including hardcore FPS players -- and you > haven't even seen it, doesn't it seem a little extreme to flat out > blow it off as "simply doesn't work" when, in fact, it does? > > -Hook > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: > Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! > No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server > http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Gamedevlists-design mailing list > Gam...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design > Archives: > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_idU6 > > ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-design mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556 |
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From: <phi...@pl...> - 2003-04-07 16:37:15
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Jamie: > I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is. It's in first person, and your primary interaction with the world, is to shoot it. It's an FPS. Cheers, Phil |
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From: Jamie F. <ja...@qu...> - 2003-04-07 16:45:20
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I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving / platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first person game I can think of. So I disagree with you :) Jamie -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of phi...@pl... Sent: 07 April 2003 17:39 To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls Jamie: > I think we should be clear, though, that MP _isn't_ an FPS. It's a first person action adventure, really. Yes, using that control method for a frag session would be awful; but that's not the type of game it is. It's in first person, and your primary interaction with the world, is to shoot it. It's an FPS. Cheers, Phil ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-design mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556 |
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From: <phi...@pl...> - 2003-04-07 17:41:02
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> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving / platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first person game I can think of. Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman? > So I disagree with you :) I find myself with a foot in both camps on this one. Cheers, Phil |
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From: Jamie F. <ja...@qu...> - 2003-04-08 09:41:52
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Not played those three :) Got myself a copy of Deus Ex, just haven't got round to playing it yet.... Halo and Goldeneye are both shooters (although both occasionally drift into driving games, for some strange reason... neither does it well, as far as i'm concerned), and i've not got a problem with that :) But the pace of MP is really quite different. I don't think i can express it any more clearly than that :) Jamie -----Original Message----- From: gam...@li... [mailto:gam...@li...]On Behalf Of phi...@pl... Sent: 07 April 2003 18:43 To: gam...@li... Subject: RE: RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls > I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting at its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration / puzzle-solving / platforming elements which are almost entirely absent from any other first person game I can think of. Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman? > So I disagree with you :) I find myself with a foot in both camps on this one. Cheers, Phil ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Gamedevlists-design mailing list Gam...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gamedevlists-design Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=556 |
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From: Mickael P. <mpo...@ed...> - 2003-04-08 09:54:43
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>> I think I've spent more time scanning the world than I have shooting
>> at
> its inhabitants. There're also significant exploration /
> puzzle-solving / platforming elements which are almost entirely
> absent from any other first person game I can think of.
>
> Deus Ex? Thief? Hitman?
Can add "No One Live Forever 2" to this list.
Mickael Pointier
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From: Garett B. <gt...@st...> - 2003-04-04 21:01:00
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I think the best way to reproduce mouse-like yaw control on a console would be to dedicate a single stick to yaw, and return yaw values as an angle. In this case, whenever x^2+y^2 > 0.8 or so (ie. only near the outer ring of the stick), dtheta = arctan (y0/x0) - arctan (y1/x1), yaw = yaw + s*dtheta, where "s" is some variable scalar for sensitivity. This allows players to turn and stop on a dime, which is the greatest advantage of the mouse. Unfortunately, now you need to use another axis entirely for pitch. Perhaps pitch and strafe on the second stick? It was mentioned several times that the pitch control in Halo is less sensitive than the yaw control. This seems like a step in the right direction, but I'd suggest mapping the stick's maximum positive y value to looking straight up, zero y to looking straight ahead, and maximum negative y to looking straight down, ie. pitch = y*i*2pi, where "i" is +1 or -1 to allow invertibility. Perhaps the axis' granularity is too course to allow this, providing only a few discrete values between zero and max? With regard to the conventional, single-axis yaw approach, I'd suggest raising the axis input to the 3rd or 5th power before feeding it to the camera control. This would result in a wide range of sensitive control near the center of the stick, and maximum turn rate near the extremeties (eg. 0.1^3 = 0.001, 1.0^3 = 1.0). Once again, this may not be possible due to low input granularity. Maybe the analog sticks are not effectively analog as much as they are multiply digital. I'd really like to see a dual stick controller that could produce at least 10 discrete outputs between zero and one in each direction, ie. 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, ...1.0. While I'm dreaming, how about a console controller with one stick and one trackball? |
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From: J. G. <jg-...@jg...> - 2003-04-04 22:39:57
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Hi, Had to jump in here. on the 04/04/03 21:12, ge...@ub... wrote: > i have yet to find a single console game that provides even remotely as good of a control scheme as the good old keyboard mouse combo. > > first person simply does NOT work on a console - goldeneye had horrible controls - this endless 'nudging' that you have to do to try and get the cursor centered on someone to shoot them is useless. You sound like a PC Gamer, the goldeneye controls were fantastic IMO. Most of your problems were probably related to co-ordination of your hands. If you have not used a gamepad much you _will_ obviously find it different to what you are used to, the "old keyboard mouse combo". First time I used a keyboard + mouse it felt wierd, but sure enough after 30mins or so I was loving it. Try playing an FPS with the mouse in your left hand and I am sure it will take you a while to adjust to it again. Cheers JG |
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From: Jan E. <ch...@in...> - 2003-04-05 10:27:41
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On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 ge...@ub... wrote:
>didn't actually play halo, but i can't see how this is any different.
>the fatal flaw is in the control scheme period. console manufacturers
>simply created bad controls...
I think that console controllers are excellent. Thinking about the
requirement for a small controller with a lot of functionality and the
need to be able to take a lot of punushment, I think they have succeeded
very well. Who the h*ll would like to sit in your favourite TV couch with
a bulky keyboard and a mouse on the floor just to play some game? Not
doable. Mouse an keyboard are better for a selected few game types, such
as FPS and RTS-like games, but they need so much more *clean* space (for
the mouse to work) so that the combination is useless in front of a TV
(where at least I want to play my games).
--
And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha,
the Chosen One: "Psst!"
-- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
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