gamedevlists-design

RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

For reference:

Halo & TS - one stick does look, the other does move. TS wasn't a great
implementation, Halo was. This is essentially the console equivalent of
mouse+WASD on the PC.

Metroid - the stick does move + turn, but press a button and it becomes
move+strafe, press another button and it becomes turn+look up/down. You
cannot look up and down and move at the same time.


Here's the problem.

Metroid has a great control scheme. It's well thought-out, people can pick
it up easily, etc. It's extremely friendly to the casual player.

BUT

If (like me) you are one of the people that has played Halo and become good
at the dual-stick controls, Metroid drives you bonkers. Once you've got the
hang of the dual-stick arrangement, evenrything else feels terrible. Having
to unlearn everything you knew about moving in an FPS environment is
incredibly painful. I almost stopped playing MP because of this, except that
every single other thing about the game was so brilliant that I kept
playing.

I'm now pretty good with the MP controls, and since the game difficulty and
levels are designed around the control scheme, they're not actually a
problem. But even now, it still feels very limiting compared to Halo - you
can't easily move in a different direction to the way you're going. You
can't look up and down and move at the same time. You have to precisely aim
at narrow doorways, or you hit them - you can't easily "wobble" yourself
with strafe to hit them. It's like walking around with your head in a vice -
you can do it, but it's not comfortable.

I don't think there is anyone who is used to both control sets that would
claim the dual-stick method is not superior. (note - MP's "lock-on" feature
is great, and as long as it doesn't ruin the game, should be added to any
dual-stick control scheme - that's a separate issue).

HOWEVER

The dual-stick control is a real pain for casual players to use. Halo helped
a lot by having a much smaller vertical scale than horizontal, which does
lessen the number of times new player end up looking at their feet or the
sky. But it's still trickier.

SO

I think games should do both, and let the user choose.

BUT

There's a problem in deathmatch, because anyone using the MP scheme is
almost certainly going to get their arse kicked.



Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
> Sent: 04 April 2003 15:48
> To: gam...@li...
> Subject: [GD-Design] FPS console controls
> 
> 
> The issue of FPS controls in console games just came up in 
> the algorithms
> list, but it seems more appropriate here. People mentioned Halo and
> Timesplitters as good examples (I personally disagree about 
> TS), and Metroid
> as a bad example. However, in Metroid the gameplay is well 
> adapted to the
> (limited) control scheme.
> 
> So, well, discuss...
> 
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

One of the tricks with deadzones is that you make a fairly large deadzone,
but ignore it if the _velocity_ of the stick is above a certain (small)
amount. This is because as sticks get older, where they recenter too gets
very loose. But if the player makes a small movement, they expect that
movement to get through to the game, even if it's inside the deadzone. You
need a tiny bit of deadzone on the velocity to cope with signal jitter, but
it is very small.

This is a really neat trick. It's necessary on the PS2 because the
DualShocks really loosen up over time and the centre position is wildly out
(which is where I saw this originally), but it's also helpful on the other
controllers - small adjustments are really simple to make.

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP.

This email is the product of your deranged imagination,
and does not in any way imply existence of the author.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:ja...@py...]
[snip]
>  - Stick dead zone (more hardware issue than software, but both can be
> involved). I got the feeling that the dead zone for stick 
> centering was much
> larger in MoH/PS2 than in Halo, and that it was annoying in MoH when I
> wanted those little adjustments to turns, it just seemed that 
> I had to turn
> the stick too much before turning began, so it took me longer 
> to perform
> little turns.
[snip]
>   Javier Arevalo
>   Pyro Studios

Re: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

[Javier A. <ja...@py...>]

I basically agree with what Tom said (haven't played Metroid Prime yet, just
checked it for a couple minutes at EBX). Halo was the first console FPS
where I was able to forget about the controller and just "think" what I
wanted to do while my hands performed it.

However, it's not just a matter of controller setup. I recalled that TS2 (on
the GC) had the same control system, and I was never in control there, a
couple of enemies moving around me in an open area would be a fair challenge
to shoot at. I just tried Medal of Honor (PS2) with the "advanced"
(sharpshooter?) setup, and once again I found myself missing enemies at
point blank because my control over targetting was not precise enough nad I
would overshoot or undershoot my turns. In Halo I was even able to shoot
moving targets with the sniper rifle.

Now, the question is, why would the same control scheme work well or bad on
these different games (and consoles)?

 - Invert Y axis option is pretty vital, and Halo did a good job of checking
which one the player was better used to. It is also interesting to separate
the invert Y axis option for flying vehicles and ground movement.

 - controller stick "feel". Some controllers have harder springs than
others, or the way your hand grabs it gives the thumb a a better position,
or... essentially an ergonomics issue. After playing with the XBox
controller, the PS2 seems too smal and... light, or weak, or something.

 - Stick dead zone (more hardware issue than software, but both can be
involved). I got the feeling that the dead zone for stick centering was much
larger in MoH/PS2 than in Halo, and that it was annoying in MoH when I
wanted those little adjustments to turns, it just seemed that I had to turn
the stick too much before turning began, so it took me longer to perform
little turns.

 - sensitivity adjustment. Using independent sensitivities for vertical and
horizontal axes is crucial, since in general you want vertical sensitivity
to be less. I guess there is also something to be said about which curve to
use based on the stick value: linear? Power-of-something?

 - Interaction between stick axes? Meaning, when you fully push an axis,
changes are you also affect the other. Should this be detected and taken
into account?

 - acceleration. You could have some acceleration over the entire range of
the axis, but definitely want some acceleration when the stick. A good idea
may also be to engage  max acceleration when you suddenly turn the stick
fully in the opposite direction.

 - auto-targeting. This is where things start to get interesting. You shoot
in a general direction, the bullet automatically goes to the target you're
almost aiming at. The more obvious this is done, the less believable, it has
to work. It gets trickier to implement when targets are able to hide and
expose just a part of the body (like those shielded aliens in Halo, or guys
using scenery for protection).

 - turning helpers. I don't know about this, but it sounds like it *might*
be possible, kind of like the autotargeting, to adjust the orientation
slightly when the player stops turning with a target almost centered.

How have people approached these kinds of parameters?

Then on the issue of actions and action buttons. Was I the only one who
found it very hard in Halo to whack guys while moving? The problem was that
I had to remove my thumb from the turning stick in order to use the melee
action button. The Getaway seems to do a good job of meleeing a guy
automatically when up-close. In general, the two-stick setup reduces action
buttons to pressing the sticks (which makes the sticks also move unreliably)
and the shoulder buttons, of which different consoles have different number.

Lock-on schemes reduces the skills required by the player, and the potential
number of options for combat - think of the turn-strafe combos for shooting
the Hunter's back in Halo. They also seem to reduce the options for vertical
combat. How does this work with snipers?

Ok, long enough already.

  Javier Arevalo
  Pyro Studios

RE: [GD-Design] FPS console controls

[<phi...@pl...>]

Tom:
> If (like me) you are one of the people that has played Halo and become
good at the dual-stick controls, Metroid drives you bonkers.

Restated like this, I would agree. Dual stick, with lock-on, would have
been best for MP. Being able to use the look stick to move the sight
relative to the lock would have been cool. Non-homing weapons were near
useless on fast moving enemies.

Javier:
>After playing with the XBox controller, the PS2 seems too smal and...
light, or weak, or something.

The dead zones on the DualShock are far too large. The actual sticks on the
XBox, and GC are much more accurate, although I dislike the sprung loaded
shoulder buttons on each. Made Metroid physically painful, and GunValkyrie
impossible to actually play, especially when combined with it's use of the
stick buttons. In fact, if you want a pathologically bad FPS control
system, look at GunValkyrie.

Cheers,
Phil