The title is sort of a joke—yesterday Dimitry made clear that he hates ribbon UI and I assume that most people here agree with him. But it's not a joke in another sense, because it's clear that the Freeplane UI is a big obstacle to new users, and based on my research I am becoming convinced that a ribbon UI (similar to the UI on MS Office) is the best current answer. A previous thread mentioned ProjectLibre, which is a Java application that has a ribbon interface, so presumably there is a Java library that can be used for this purpose.
It turns out that the people who are most likely to hate a ribbon UI are programmers. That's why I suspect that people here will resist a ribbon UI. Current vocal FP users are disproportionately programmers. This thread shows @Alexandre supporting a ribbon UI and several people strongly opposing it. But there are lots of reasons that ribbon UI is good for both beginners and experts, especially for an application like FP that has many commands.
So this post is really an invitation for people to comment on their initial response to a ribbon UI and to see how much resistance the community might have to doing this. If there are no responses, I will assume that people are actually open to this type of UI change, and I'll explain the potential benefits. But if people have reasons they think FP should not use a ribbon other than "I personally don't like ribbons" I want to read them so I can consider counterarguments before advocating for the change.
Note that any implementation of a ribbon UI:
would allow users to easily minimize or hide the ribbon
would not remove any existing functionality
would be compatible with adding customizability to FP menus and toolbars
Thanks!
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"Dimitry made clear that he hates ribbon UI "
I totally hate that too!!!! PLEAAAAASE, DON'T!!!
Big branches, big corporations, big guys, make enormous design mistakes
too, despite their investments in marketing.
I have no doubt the ribbon interfaces have been a mistake. There is a limit
to how easy you can make things for a lazy, uninformed user.
I don't believe you can make someone learn quantum mechanics with no effort
whatsoever.
And ultimately, IT, Computers and software have some degree of unavoidable
difficulty because they actually deal with complexity and they are
sophisticated things.
If you are really lame, turn off your PC and go smash some nails with a big
hammer.
Sorry if I seem sarcastic. I'm serious about the issue.
Hi!
My claim is an exaggeration, of course.
But I never even use the tool bar. I use keyboard shortcuts 90% of the
time, and menus (with keyboard, no mouse) the rest of the time.
I hate ribbons because they take a lot of screen space. And because that
space is used for options that are used rarelly. Why would I be looking all
the time at big buttons that I may not use in many sessions with the
program?
I guess for a newbie it's a way of advertising features. But for a veteran
that waste of space in the screen is distracting and irritating. A menu has
many, many more options, is much less intrusive, and can provide all the
same options. Why would anyone want the redundancy of a big, anoying
ribbon? It's like push or pull in advertising. The latter is much nicer. At
the very least the ribbon option should be removable.
Also, ribbons are maybe ok for simple software and naive users. Like kids
or something. That kind of user is not really the main target for Freeplane.
Hope this clarifies my previous claim.
"I have no doubt the ribbon interfaces have been a mistake. "
This is an honest question—what makes you so confident about this claim?
And, is there any possible evidence that could change your mind?
I understand your reasons for personally disliking the ribbon. Here's another question for you: I assume you save files with a hotkey, as I do. In MS Office, what percentage of people do you think save files by typing Ctrl+S vs. the percentage of people that save files by using the mouse to click on the floppy disk icon?
Anyone reading this, please take a guess! No rewards/penalties for right/wrong answers; it's just for fun.
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what percentage of people do you think save files by typing Ctrl+S vs.
the percentage of people that save files by using the mouse to click on the
floppy disk icon?
I have no idea whatsoever. But, as you mention, I would never do that.
On the other hand, let me ask you my own question: What percentage of
people eat too many carbs and become obese or insuline resistant?
Assuming that percentage is high, should the rest of us eat carbs like
there is no tomorrow, become obese, and ruin our health? Furthermore,
should we transform Freeplane into an unhealthy food, because that would
attract more people?
I ask this questions because I would rather try to make the public more
healthy and proficient, than ruin the product to make it more popular. From
my perspective, the main purpose of this community is to make Freeplane
excel, no to make Freeplane as popular as possible. But it may be the case
that other people in the community have another goal. It wouldn't be a
crime. Even so, my advice is to make the thing excell, as a way to make it
popular. If you ruin the interface to make it popular, it could be
conterproductive. And it would for sure be a worse program. In my opinion
Freeplane culture is not very compatible with eye candy, and such lame
things. All in live is about culture. I don't see Qualcomm having the same
priorities than Disney.
Then the question would be: What is the culture for Freeplane? Capability
or eye candy? Beware of focussing into the second thing. It would be a
total change. For once, we have a program, and developers, that are super
centered into functonality. And that's what makes Freeplane super special
and outstanding.
I think the current toolbar needs a heavy makeover. Everything that groups icons visually is good. Maybe we need more alternatives to ribbon if most oppose :)
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+1, but I' m in favor of using ribbon UI only if there is a hotkey to activate/disactivate it.
I think the FP developers made a big effort to optimize the menu space occupation see my case, this is after the last optimization, before you imagine for the same commands I got 3 rows partially filled instead of 2 with the same commands list, of course there is the alternative of the full screen.
I'm a long time user - not a programmer. I don't really care for a ribbon. For me the question is this: what functionality would a ribbon provide that the current toolbar doesn't?
If there are toolbar changes to be suggested, what I'd like instead of a ribbon, is the ability to customize the toolbar - to take tools off of it and add tools onto it. And to move them around. I'd also like to have a floating toolbar that I can put close to the nodes I'm working on, that I can customize with the tools I find myself most frequently using (and which might change when working on different mindmaps).
But I like the interface as it is - no ribbon.
~ Bal
Last edit: Bal Simon 2021-10-02
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Hi @quickfold,
I don't know if ribbon is the solution or not, but there is another configuration that can be used and maybe it fulfills the requirements of both sides:
- "desks" or "workbenches" (as used in FreeCad for example)
In Freecad you have a combobox where you can change the active "workbench". It depends in which part of the creation process you are you can activate the workbench you want. For exmple for sketching, for creating 3d parts, for rendering, for mounting the parts together, for traspasing the info to "D plans for printing, etc.
There are also other workbenches for special purposes like architecture, boat design, Paragliders, etc.
Take a look to some of them.
There are buttons that repeat themself on many of the different workbenches also.
I know it will look pretty technical, but it is so because it is a technical software. The same idea can be brought to Freeplane in a more friendly way.
Nowadays when you create an AddOn for Freeplane it adds buttons to the menus by "complementing" the xml definition of the menu, something in the same direction could eventually be done to create custom workbenches by the users.
Just an idea,
edo
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Hi @edo_f, thanks for the suggestion and links. I agree that the panel layout is complicated but highly functional. I think a ribbon UI actually is the "more friendly" version of a panel UI. I also support custom toolbars. Perhaps one way to do it is to have a standard ribbon UI that can be toggled off completely and optional toolbars that can be completely customized, allowing the existing UI for current users who like it. Dockable panels would be an even better optional feature, but I'm guessing that is unlikely without more people on the core dev team.
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Hi, I am not going to actively pursue this improvement right now, so I want to put some resources here for future efforts (by me or others).
The ribbon was designed by a product team that saw how actual MS Office users were increasingly having trouble finding and using commands. They saw that most suggestions for improvements were for functions that already existed, and most questions were about how to do things that were already in the software—just like Freeplane.
Looking at the evolution of MS Office, they noticed an increase in the number of toolbars and panels, creating multiple places that users would need to look to find commands—just like Freeplane.
A command search was tested, but most users didn't know the exact word or phrase they needed to use to find the function they wanted, or didn't realize that the software could already do what they wanted, so they didn't search, or the search failed—just like Freeplane (for me at least).
They also found that having the commands all in one place that could be easily browsed by groups was essential to users being able to learn what was possible to do in the software. And despite many strong opinions about the ribbon, they have literally billions of data points showing how it compares to alternative strategies, and it is wildly successful among average users. Despite it being a massive change, it had something like 85% positive ratings/approval/"good idea"/"easy to use" after the first year.
They tried MANY strategies and saw how people actually used the software—what they clicked first, what they clicked next, what combinations of commands were most often used, what commands were never used. They have a spreadsheets showing Office commands that were only clicked once or twice among tens of thousands of users over a year!
I watched and took notes on a very interesting video presentation summarizing the team's work. Anyone who wants to weigh in on whether a ribbon UI is a good idea and wants to speak from a position of at least minimal authority that they have thought about alternatives should watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiNeUTgGkk
Anyone who doesn't watch this but has an opinion about what works for users broadly is just giving a personal opinion without evidence, unless they are software trainers or work in the field. That's fine to give a personal opinion, but just recognize it for what it is. Thanks!
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Another bit of thought about it.
Truth is the basic functionality of Freeplane is pretty much accessible.
The very advanced one, like extensions, scripts in several languages,
programing, setting an IDE for the software, all those things are more
obscure. I wouldn't devote myself to making the basic functionality easier
for the newbie. Why? Because it's already easy, unless we are talking about
someone that is not motivated by this software. And the truth is not every
body grasps the power of sorting information in trees. And no amount of eye
candy will make them see it. This is more like a conceptual revolution for
the user, than something about looking rosy and nice.
AND... the strength of Freeplane is the amazing functionality.
Consequently, if anything, I would work in two directions: steadily keep
improving functionality little by little, and the team here excels at that,
and also making the advanced functionality more accessible and orderly.
Whatever that may mean, which is beyond my capabilities.
But this is proudly just my personal opinion. AND I haven't seen videos on
ribbons and MS Office. I don't have the time for that. On the other hand, I
have seen interesting conversations here, that ultimately become new
amazing features. Many times I've seen that. That is why I very much
respect opinions in this forum.
Cheers.
I watched and took notes on a very interesting video presentation summarizing the team's work. Anyone who wants to weigh in on whether a ribbon UI is a good idea and wants to speak from a position of at least minimal authority that they have thought about alternatives should watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiNeUTgGkk
Thanks for sharing, I took the time to watch the complete video and actually enjoyed it. It demonstrates how much effort, man power, data, analysis and iterations are needed for creating an interface which claims to be more user friendly than a classical system of menus and toolbars. Interestingly, for me finding tools in libre office not adopting a ribbon paradigm is still easier and seems to be more comfortable.
From the presentation I learned that the goal of the ribbons is helping the users to learn by committing small mouse based experiments and getting immediate visual feedback either in the document or in a preview part of the ribbon toolbar. It might be useful for some users who do not like learning from books, tutorials, videos but only by trial and error. Personally for me this approach is neither universal nor very helpful.
Anyone who doesn't watch this but has an opinion about what works for users broadly is just giving a personal opinion without evidence, unless they are software trainers or work in the field. That's fine to give a personal opinion, but just recognize it for what it is.
Personally I value all personal opinions based on individual experiences and specific use cases.
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"Personally I value all personal opinions based on individual experiences
and specific use cases."
That is so considerate. Thank you.
Modesty, assuming other people, besides one self, may actually be kind of
smart, hard working and knowledgeable, that is the road to wisdom.
Congrats.
Interesting discussion, I guess ribbons are a bit of a red cloth for a lot of people.
I must admit, not a big ribbon fan myself, stuff never seems to be where I expect it to be in MS Office at least, so more often than not I end up iterating all ribbons till I finally find what I'm looking for :D
It did make we wonder though, which part of the freeplane toolbars do I actually use, and it turns out its pretty much the filtering and finding toolbar exclusively, all the other functions I either rarely need and access them via the main menu, or I constantly need and therefore use keyboard shortcuts or macros tailored to my workflow, using the toolbars would be way too slow and cumbersome, ribbon or otherwise.
Looking at it from that perspective, putting all the (by me at least) unused clutter in ribbons suddenly sounds like a pretty solid concept.
So in a nutshell, as long as I still get to have the finding/filtering in one place, a ribbon style interface would not impact me much, and if it helps others that have a less keyboard-centric way of working, even better.
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My two cents.
I'm a long time user of Freeplane and agree that the current toolbar needs an update. I'm not particular a fan of the Ribbon-UI but it looks to me cleaner and more structured then the current solution. The current toolbar(s) look (even after all those years) 'messy' to me.
Alternative solutions can also do but let's try to keep the design visual tidy and clean.
I guess most users of mindmaps like a visual structured and tidy, nice looking interface.
A big plus would also be if the user can (partial) customize the toolbar.
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First, glad that people are enjoying the discussion in this thread, but I want to re-emphasize that there are no current plans to implement a ribbon UI, because for the past year the primary person working for major changes to the Freeplane UI was me, and I have decided to reduce my large-scale Freeplane contributions for the time being (while remaining involved in the community).
Glad you enjoyed the video, Dimitry! You wrote:
Interestingly, for me finding tools in libre office not adopting a ribbon paradigm is still easier and seems to be more comfortable.
Not surprising, since you are a programmer and not the average end user, and since you have not devoted significant time to learning and using a ribbon interface. Most people don't like interfaces that they don't regularly use.
From the presentation I learned that the goal of the ribbons is helping the users to learn by committing small mouse based experiments and getting immediate visual feedback either in the document or in a preview part of the ribbon toolbar. It might be useful for some users who do not like learning from books, tutorials, videos but only by trial and error. Personally for me this approach is neither universal nor very helpful.
That is really only one goal of the ribbon. Visual feedback is one (optional) aspect of a ribbon interface, but my takeaway from the video was that the main motivation for changing the interface was helping people learn/discover/use the existing functions of the software.
The idea of immediate visual feedback is used in other mindmapping programs via a ribbon interface to show the user what their actual map would look like with a different theme. Basically, there are buttons with different themes, and when you click them, your whole map changes to that theme and can be easily changed back with a 2nd click. In my opinion, that's a much better method than FP's current method of showing a generic template preview and requiring choosing templates with a file dialog. (I understand that it might be much harder to implement the ribbon version).
Personally I value all personal opinions based on individual experiences and specific use cases.
I do too, but the real questions are 1) do all opinions get valued equally? and 2) what to do when your opinion differs from others?
If all opinions are equally valued, then the way to make development decisions is through a vote, but I think you are not enthusiastic about that model, and I would support it in some circumstances but not others. So the logical implication is that in the Freeplane world, like in almost all domains, some opinions are given less "value" that others.
I also must note that you are very open to all opinions for areas of Freeplane where you don't have a strong opinion, but for those fewer areas where you do, whether or not you value opposing opinions, you feel very free to reject them outright! It's not a criticism of course, as all of us reject some opinions, and as the main developer, that is of course your right. But we should be open about that to the community.
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I do too, but the real questions are 1) do all opinions get valued equally? and 2) what to do when your opinion differs from others?
If all opinions are equally valued, then the way to make development decisions is through a vote, but I think you are not enthusiastic about that model, and I would support it in some circumstances but not others. So the logical implication is that in the Freeplane world, like in almost all domains, some opinions are given less "value" that others.
I value freedom of expression. I try to follow all discussions and try to find solutions helping as many folks and use cases as possible within efforts I can spend.
While all opinions are valuable, some people opinions need to have more weight when decision is to be taken. My opinion has more weight for Freeplane because I have been working on it since 2007 and I am still making the most contributions. If I let other people make decisions and did anything I personally disagreed, I would be not able to maintain my commitment to the project. And if I had decided to stop working on Freeplane I am not sure it would be great news for anyone. However I try to consider all opinions and arguments and I believe I do pretty well. I believe that community voice is always heard. I believe that in the most cases reaching agreement between me and other contributors was possible.
Also, I consider Freeplane an experiment. We try new ideas out and learn from the user feedback. Sometimes decisions are kept, sometimes they are improved, sometimes they are reverted based on the learning.
I also must note that you are very open to all opinions for areas of Freeplane where you don't have a strong opinion, but for those fewer areas where you do, whether or not you value opposing opinions, you feel very free to reject them outright!
Let us discuss problems and not people. I think that expressing judgements about people in public is generally not wise.
It's not a criticism of course, as all of us reject some opinions, and as the main developer, that is of course your right. But we should be open about that to the community.
What do you mean by "we should be open about that to the community"?
Let us talk about the real case which you probably have in mind. I believe it is related to level styles because this discussion about ribbons is still running.
I am absolutely confident that the advantages of having easy access to the level styles overweight possible disadvantages at least for some ways of using Freeplane. I expressed it in the forum. I reverted it in Freeplane 1.9.11 preview versions. I was not willing to have a private discussion on this topic any longer because I believed it was not likely neither to change my mind not to change your opinion. However everyone has a possibility to continue this discussion somewhere in this forum.
I also think that non trivial alternatives can sometimes not be resolved by exchanging arguments because there are can be arguments for both outcomes. It is particularly true for Freeplane because for different use cases opposite decisions might be preferrable. And I do not think that discussions about which use case seems to be more important are likely to reach a broad agreement.
Instead of exchanging arguments people could either try to ask questions which could help the others change their opinions. And they could try to find new solutions satisfying different use cases. Such innovative solutions are more likely to be discovered in an open discussion than in a group of two.
Best regards,
Dimitry
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It may be the time to be totally honest:
Firstly, and I don't know how he manages that, Dimitry ultimately is always
right. He may not always pay attention to some detail from the beginning,
but he listens pretty often, and if you make your point more clearly a
second time, he may get to work on your suggestion. I'm thinking of
something I tried to push ahead years ago, without success, and when I came
back to it, recently, I was heard, and the thing was implemented. I also
notice the same thing in other discussions, with other users, and other
needs.
So, in a nutshell, we are very very lucky, here, at Freeplane. The software
is amazing, and Dimitry, among others, keeps doing an amazing job, year
after year. Having witnessed that constant processes for a long time, I am
humbly impressed.
I also would say that one key here is patience and tolerance. The software
was not perfect in the past. And it's missing minor things in the present.
Particularly in the field of formatting and keyboard shortcuts, and with
SimplyHTML. Also, the mobile version would be useful. But there has always
been minor problems. And even though, with Freeplane, minor problems tend
to be solved over time, the main thing is to be conscious of the fact that
the product is already amazing. Always have been. I think that in life we
should be able to think about what is already great, thanksgiving style,
instead of perpetually agonize over things that could be further improved.
I enjoy FP so much, that I have thoroughly adapted to it's very few
limitations, and they don't bother me so much. Ribbons, if I wanted them,
would be a perfect example. There is nothing you can do with Ribbons you
cannot do with what we have. Are they useful for some people? Sure thing.
But I don't see them as terribly necessary, for anyone. That's how I have
come to live whit the software: Just work with it, adapt to it, use
workarounds some times, discuss, expect improvements, be patient and,
overall, enjoy what is already there.
Sorry if I was too personal this time.
The title is sort of a joke—yesterday Dimitry made clear that he hates ribbon UI and I assume that most people here agree with him. But it's not a joke in another sense, because it's clear that the Freeplane UI is a big obstacle to new users, and based on my research I am becoming convinced that a ribbon UI (similar to the UI on MS Office) is the best current answer. A previous thread mentioned ProjectLibre, which is a Java application that has a ribbon interface, so presumably there is a Java library that can be used for this purpose.
It turns out that the people who are most likely to hate a ribbon UI are programmers. That's why I suspect that people here will resist a ribbon UI. Current vocal FP users are disproportionately programmers. This thread shows @Alexandre supporting a ribbon UI and several people strongly opposing it. But there are lots of reasons that ribbon UI is good for both beginners and experts, especially for an application like FP that has many commands.
So this post is really an invitation for people to comment on their initial response to a ribbon UI and to see how much resistance the community might have to doing this. If there are no responses, I will assume that people are actually open to this type of UI change, and I'll explain the potential benefits. But if people have reasons they think FP should not use a ribbon other than "I personally don't like ribbons" I want to read them so I can consider counterarguments before advocating for the change.
Note that any implementation of a ribbon UI:
Thanks!
"Dimitry made clear that he hates ribbon UI "
I totally hate that too!!!! PLEAAAAASE, DON'T!!!
Big branches, big corporations, big guys, make enormous design mistakes
too, despite their investments in marketing.
I have no doubt the ribbon interfaces have been a mistake. There is a limit
to how easy you can make things for a lazy, uninformed user.
I don't believe you can make someone learn quantum mechanics with no effort
whatsoever.
And ultimately, IT, Computers and software have some degree of unavoidable
difficulty because they actually deal with complexity and they are
sophisticated things.
If you are really lame, turn off your PC and go smash some nails with a big
hammer.
Sorry if I seem sarcastic. I'm serious about the issue.
"I have no doubt the ribbon interfaces have been a mistake. "
This is an honest question—what makes you so confident about this claim?
And, is there any possible evidence that could change your mind?
Hi!
My claim is an exaggeration, of course.
But I never even use the tool bar. I use keyboard shortcuts 90% of the
time, and menus (with keyboard, no mouse) the rest of the time.
I hate ribbons because they take a lot of screen space. And because that
space is used for options that are used rarelly. Why would I be looking all
the time at big buttons that I may not use in many sessions with the
program?
I guess for a newbie it's a way of advertising features. But for a veteran
that waste of space in the screen is distracting and irritating. A menu has
many, many more options, is much less intrusive, and can provide all the
same options. Why would anyone want the redundancy of a big, anoying
ribbon? It's like push or pull in advertising. The latter is much nicer. At
the very least the ribbon option should be removable.
Also, ribbons are maybe ok for simple software and naive users. Like kids
or something. That kind of user is not really the main target for Freeplane.
Hope this clarifies my previous claim.
"I have no doubt the ribbon interfaces have been a mistake. "
I understand your reasons for personally disliking the ribbon. Here's another question for you: I assume you save files with a hotkey, as I do. In MS Office, what percentage of people do you think save files by typing
Ctrl+Svs. the percentage of people that save files by using the mouse to click on the floppy disk icon?Anyone reading this, please take a guess! No rewards/penalties for right/wrong answers; it's just for fun.
Dear Quickfold:
On the other hand, let me ask you my own question: What percentage of
people eat too many carbs and become obese or insuline resistant?
Assuming that percentage is high, should the rest of us eat carbs like
there is no tomorrow, become obese, and ruin our health? Furthermore,
should we transform Freeplane into an unhealthy food, because that would
attract more people?
I ask this questions because I would rather try to make the public more
healthy and proficient, than ruin the product to make it more popular. From
my perspective, the main purpose of this community is to make Freeplane
excel, no to make Freeplane as popular as possible. But it may be the case
that other people in the community have another goal. It wouldn't be a
crime. Even so, my advice is to make the thing excell, as a way to make it
popular. If you ruin the interface to make it popular, it could be
conterproductive. And it would for sure be a worse program. In my opinion
Freeplane culture is not very compatible with eye candy, and such lame
things. All in live is about culture. I don't see Qualcomm having the same
priorities than Disney.
Then the question would be: What is the culture for Freeplane? Capability
or eye candy? Beware of focussing into the second thing. It would be a
total change. For once, we have a program, and developers, that are super
centered into functonality. And that's what makes Freeplane super special
and outstanding.
But that's just MHO.
I think the current toolbar needs a heavy makeover. Everything that groups icons visually is good. Maybe we need more alternatives to ribbon if most oppose :)
Please don't. Whatever you think you should achieve, Ribbons make things worse, always.
Paul
+1, but I' m in favor of using ribbon UI only if there is a hotkey to activate/disactivate it.
I think the FP developers made a big effort to optimize the menu space occupation see my case, this is after the last optimization, before you imagine for the same commands I got 3 rows partially filled instead of 2 with the same commands list, of course there is the alternative of the full screen.
SFPC
I'm a long time user - not a programmer. I don't really care for a ribbon. For me the question is this: what functionality would a ribbon provide that the current toolbar doesn't?
If there are toolbar changes to be suggested, what I'd like instead of a ribbon, is the ability to customize the toolbar - to take tools off of it and add tools onto it. And to move them around. I'd also like to have a floating toolbar that I can put close to the nodes I'm working on, that I can customize with the tools I find myself most frequently using (and which might change when working on different mindmaps).
But I like the interface as it is - no ribbon.
~ Bal
Last edit: Bal Simon 2021-10-02
+1
Hi @quickfold,
I don't know if ribbon is the solution or not, but there is another configuration that can be used and maybe it fulfills the requirements of both sides:
- "desks" or "workbenches" (as used in FreeCad for example)
In Freecad you have a combobox where you can change the active "workbench". It depends in which part of the creation process you are you can activate the workbench you want. For exmple for sketching, for creating 3d parts, for rendering, for mounting the parts together, for traspasing the info to "D plans for printing, etc.
There are also other workbenches for special purposes like architecture, boat design, Paragliders, etc.
Look in https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Interface the points 9 and 10 from the UI picture.
and here you can see the list of workbenches:
https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Workbenches
Take a look to some of them.
There are buttons that repeat themself on many of the different workbenches also.
I know it will look pretty technical, but it is so because it is a technical software. The same idea can be brought to Freeplane in a more friendly way.
Nowadays when you create an AddOn for Freeplane it adds buttons to the menus by "complementing" the xml definition of the menu, something in the same direction could eventually be done to create custom workbenches by the users.
Just an idea,
edo
Hi @edo_f, thanks for the suggestion and links. I agree that the panel layout is complicated but highly functional. I think a ribbon UI actually is the "more friendly" version of a panel UI. I also support custom toolbars. Perhaps one way to do it is to have a standard ribbon UI that can be toggled off completely and optional toolbars that can be completely customized, allowing the existing UI for current users who like it. Dockable panels would be an even better optional feature, but I'm guessing that is unlikely without more people on the core dev team.
Hi quickfold
If you finally make the ribbon, +1 to having the option to toggle off.
Please.
No need to worry—I said it in my first post: "would allow users to easily minimize or hide the ribbon".
Hi, I am not going to actively pursue this improvement right now, so I want to put some resources here for future efforts (by me or others).
The ribbon was designed by a product team that saw how actual MS Office users were increasingly having trouble finding and using commands. They saw that most suggestions for improvements were for functions that already existed, and most questions were about how to do things that were already in the software—just like Freeplane.
Looking at the evolution of MS Office, they noticed an increase in the number of toolbars and panels, creating multiple places that users would need to look to find commands—just like Freeplane.
A command search was tested, but most users didn't know the exact word or phrase they needed to use to find the function they wanted, or didn't realize that the software could already do what they wanted, so they didn't search, or the search failed—just like Freeplane (for me at least).
They also found that having the commands all in one place that could be easily browsed by groups was essential to users being able to learn what was possible to do in the software. And despite many strong opinions about the ribbon, they have literally billions of data points showing how it compares to alternative strategies, and it is wildly successful among average users. Despite it being a massive change, it had something like 85% positive ratings/approval/"good idea"/"easy to use" after the first year.
They tried MANY strategies and saw how people actually used the software—what they clicked first, what they clicked next, what combinations of commands were most often used, what commands were never used. They have a spreadsheets showing Office commands that were only clicked once or twice among tens of thousands of users over a year!
I got a ton of useful information from the blog of the project team leader: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/
I watched and took notes on a very interesting video presentation summarizing the team's work. Anyone who wants to weigh in on whether a ribbon UI is a good idea and wants to speak from a position of at least minimal authority that they have thought about alternatives should watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiNeUTgGkk
Anyone who doesn't watch this but has an opinion about what works for users broadly is just giving a personal opinion without evidence, unless they are software trainers or work in the field. That's fine to give a personal opinion, but just recognize it for what it is. Thanks!
Interesting information! Thanks!
Another bit of thought about it.
Truth is the basic functionality of Freeplane is pretty much accessible.
The very advanced one, like extensions, scripts in several languages,
programing, setting an IDE for the software, all those things are more
obscure. I wouldn't devote myself to making the basic functionality easier
for the newbie. Why? Because it's already easy, unless we are talking about
someone that is not motivated by this software. And the truth is not every
body grasps the power of sorting information in trees. And no amount of eye
candy will make them see it. This is more like a conceptual revolution for
the user, than something about looking rosy and nice.
AND... the strength of Freeplane is the amazing functionality.
Consequently, if anything, I would work in two directions: steadily keep
improving functionality little by little, and the team here excels at that,
and also making the advanced functionality more accessible and orderly.
Whatever that may mean, which is beyond my capabilities.
But this is proudly just my personal opinion. AND I haven't seen videos on
ribbons and MS Office. I don't have the time for that. On the other hand, I
have seen interesting conversations here, that ultimately become new
amazing features. Many times I've seen that. That is why I very much
respect opinions in this forum.
Cheers.
Thanks for sharing, I took the time to watch the complete video and actually enjoyed it. It demonstrates how much effort, man power, data, analysis and iterations are needed for creating an interface which claims to be more user friendly than a classical system of menus and toolbars. Interestingly, for me finding tools in libre office not adopting a ribbon paradigm is still easier and seems to be more comfortable.
From the presentation I learned that the goal of the ribbons is helping the users to learn by committing small mouse based experiments and getting immediate visual feedback either in the document or in a preview part of the ribbon toolbar. It might be useful for some users who do not like learning from books, tutorials, videos but only by trial and error. Personally for me this approach is neither universal nor very helpful.
Personally I value all personal opinions based on individual experiences and specific use cases.
Dimitry:
Interesting discussion, I guess ribbons are a bit of a red cloth for a lot of people.
I must admit, not a big ribbon fan myself, stuff never seems to be where I expect it to be in MS Office at least, so more often than not I end up iterating all ribbons till I finally find what I'm looking for :D
It did make we wonder though, which part of the freeplane toolbars do I actually use, and it turns out its pretty much the filtering and finding toolbar exclusively, all the other functions I either rarely need and access them via the main menu, or I constantly need and therefore use keyboard shortcuts or macros tailored to my workflow, using the toolbars would be way too slow and cumbersome, ribbon or otherwise.
Looking at it from that perspective, putting all the (by me at least) unused clutter in ribbons suddenly sounds like a pretty solid concept.
So in a nutshell, as long as I still get to have the finding/filtering in one place, a ribbon style interface would not impact me much, and if it helps others that have a less keyboard-centric way of working, even better.
My two cents.
I'm a long time user of Freeplane and agree that the current toolbar needs an update. I'm not particular a fan of the Ribbon-UI but it looks to me cleaner and more structured then the current solution. The current toolbar(s) look (even after all those years) 'messy' to me.
Alternative solutions can also do but let's try to keep the design visual tidy and clean.
I guess most users of mindmaps like a visual structured and tidy, nice looking interface.
A big plus would also be if the user can (partial) customize the toolbar.
First, glad that people are enjoying the discussion in this thread, but I want to re-emphasize that there are no current plans to implement a ribbon UI, because for the past year the primary person working for major changes to the Freeplane UI was me, and I have decided to reduce my large-scale Freeplane contributions for the time being (while remaining involved in the community).
Glad you enjoyed the video, Dimitry! You wrote:
Not surprising, since you are a programmer and not the average end user, and since you have not devoted significant time to learning and using a ribbon interface. Most people don't like interfaces that they don't regularly use.
That is really only one goal of the ribbon. Visual feedback is one (optional) aspect of a ribbon interface, but my takeaway from the video was that the main motivation for changing the interface was helping people learn/discover/use the existing functions of the software.
The idea of immediate visual feedback is used in other mindmapping programs via a ribbon interface to show the user what their actual map would look like with a different theme. Basically, there are buttons with different themes, and when you click them, your whole map changes to that theme and can be easily changed back with a 2nd click. In my opinion, that's a much better method than FP's current method of showing a generic template preview and requiring choosing templates with a file dialog. (I understand that it might be much harder to implement the ribbon version).
I do too, but the real questions are 1) do all opinions get valued equally? and 2) what to do when your opinion differs from others?
If all opinions are equally valued, then the way to make development decisions is through a vote, but I think you are not enthusiastic about that model, and I would support it in some circumstances but not others. So the logical implication is that in the Freeplane world, like in almost all domains, some opinions are given less "value" that others.
I also must note that you are very open to all opinions for areas of Freeplane where you don't have a strong opinion, but for those fewer areas where you do, whether or not you value opposing opinions, you feel very free to reject them outright! It's not a criticism of course, as all of us reject some opinions, and as the main developer, that is of course your right. But we should be open about that to the community.
Hello Jonathan,
While all opinions are valuable, some people opinions need to have more weight when decision is to be taken. My opinion has more weight for Freeplane because I have been working on it since 2007 and I am still making the most contributions. If I let other people make decisions and did anything I personally disagreed, I would be not able to maintain my commitment to the project. And if I had decided to stop working on Freeplane I am not sure it would be great news for anyone. However I try to consider all opinions and arguments and I believe I do pretty well. I believe that community voice is always heard. I believe that in the most cases reaching agreement between me and other contributors was possible.
Also, I consider Freeplane an experiment. We try new ideas out and learn from the user feedback. Sometimes decisions are kept, sometimes they are improved, sometimes they are reverted based on the learning.
Let us discuss problems and not people. I think that expressing judgements about people in public is generally not wise.
What do you mean by "we should be open about that to the community"?
Let us talk about the real case which you probably have in mind. I believe it is related to level styles because this discussion about ribbons is still running.
I am absolutely confident that the advantages of having easy access to the level styles overweight possible disadvantages at least for some ways of using Freeplane. I expressed it in the forum. I reverted it in Freeplane 1.9.11 preview versions. I was not willing to have a private discussion on this topic any longer because I believed it was not likely neither to change my mind not to change your opinion. However everyone has a possibility to continue this discussion somewhere in this forum.
I also think that non trivial alternatives can sometimes not be resolved by exchanging arguments because there are can be arguments for both outcomes. It is particularly true for Freeplane because for different use cases opposite decisions might be preferrable. And I do not think that discussions about which use case seems to be more important are likely to reach a broad agreement.
Instead of exchanging arguments people could either try to ask questions which could help the others change their opinions. And they could try to find new solutions satisfying different use cases. Such innovative solutions are more likely to be discovered in an open discussion than in a group of two.
Best regards,
Dimitry
It may be the time to be totally honest:
Firstly, and I don't know how he manages that, Dimitry ultimately is always
right. He may not always pay attention to some detail from the beginning,
but he listens pretty often, and if you make your point more clearly a
second time, he may get to work on your suggestion. I'm thinking of
something I tried to push ahead years ago, without success, and when I came
back to it, recently, I was heard, and the thing was implemented. I also
notice the same thing in other discussions, with other users, and other
needs.
So, in a nutshell, we are very very lucky, here, at Freeplane. The software
is amazing, and Dimitry, among others, keeps doing an amazing job, year
after year. Having witnessed that constant processes for a long time, I am
humbly impressed.
I also would say that one key here is patience and tolerance. The software
was not perfect in the past. And it's missing minor things in the present.
Particularly in the field of formatting and keyboard shortcuts, and with
SimplyHTML. Also, the mobile version would be useful. But there has always
been minor problems. And even though, with Freeplane, minor problems tend
to be solved over time, the main thing is to be conscious of the fact that
the product is already amazing. Always have been. I think that in life we
should be able to think about what is already great, thanksgiving style,
instead of perpetually agonize over things that could be further improved.
I enjoy FP so much, that I have thoroughly adapted to it's very few
limitations, and they don't bother me so much. Ribbons, if I wanted them,
would be a perfect example. There is nothing you can do with Ribbons you
cannot do with what we have. Are they useful for some people? Sure thing.
But I don't see them as terribly necessary, for anyone. That's how I have
come to live whit the software: Just work with it, adapt to it, use
workarounds some times, discuss, expect improvements, be patient and,
overall, enjoy what is already there.
Sorry if I was too personal this time.