firebird-website — Everything about Firebird's web site

Re: [Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[marius p. <ma...@gm...>]

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Dmitry Yemanov <fir...@ya...> wrote:
> Jorge Andrés Brugger wrote:
>
>> I like the PostgreSQL website (http://www.postgresql.org/) organization.
>> maybe some ideas can be taken from there (like "shorcuts").
>
> Actually, their shortcuts are pretty much the same as our sidebar (which
> just requires simplification, IMHO). The core idea of the layout is also
> the same: logo, menu bar, hot news balloon, releases/shortcuts/support
> sidebar and the blog-style area. The only difference is that they have
> three categories there (news/events/planet) while we have only one.
>
After we agree on the website structure we can do some html test pages
that will be integrated later by the firebird webmasters :)
> I believe a combination of smarter sidebar, minor reorganization of the
> main page and new professional style/graphics will bring us at least to
> the same level as pgsql :-)
I agree we will work to do an better website than them
And definitely we will not the mysql way :)

>
>
> Dmitry
>
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-- 
developer flamerobin.org

Re: [Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

Jorge Andrés Brugger wrote:

> I like the PostgreSQL website (http://www.postgresql.org/) organization.
> maybe some ideas can be taken from there (like "shorcuts").

Actually, their shortcuts are pretty much the same as our sidebar (which 
just requires simplification, IMHO). The core idea of the layout is also 
the same: logo, menu bar, hot news balloon, releases/shortcuts/support 
sidebar and the blog-style area. The only difference is that they have 
three categories there (news/events/planet) while we have only one.

I believe a combination of smarter sidebar, minor reorganization of the 
main page and new professional style/graphics will bring us at least to 
the same level as pgsql :-)


Dmitry

Re: [Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[Jorge A. B. <li...@da...>]

I like the PostgreSQL website (http://www.postgresql.org/) organization. 
maybe some ideas can be taken from there (like "shorcuts").

Dmitry Yemanov escribió:
> Jiri Cincura wrote:
>   
>> consider this as a 1st concept. Take it, "mashup" it, do it best. :)
>>     
>
> Please don't consider my words a critique of your draft proposal, but I 
> believe we should do some preliminary steps before:
>
> - set up a set of categories our pages could belong to
> - enumerate all the existing pages and assign them appropriate 
> categories (multiple choices are allowed)
> - rank the categories by number of pages
>
> This would show us what menu items and sidebar sections would suit our 
> contents better. I don't think that e.g. Download or Documentation 
> sections require this approach, but some others IMHO do.
>
>
> Dmitry
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
> _______________________________________________
> Firebird-website mailing list
> Fir...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-website
>
>
>   

-- 
Jorge Andrés Brugger
Informática
DASU - Obra Social del Personal de la Universidad Nacional de la Patagonia
Comodoro Rivadavia, Chubut, Argentina
Teléfono (0297) 446-4444 int. 103
Correo electrónico: jbr...@da...
Website: www.dasu.com.ar

Re: [Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[Jiri C. <di...@ci...>]

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Dmitry Yemanov <fir...@ya...> wrote:
> Please don't consider my words a critique of your draft proposal, but I

Absolutely not. Every good idea counts.


-- 
Jiri {x2} Cincura (CTO x2develop.com)
http://blog.vyvojar.cz/jirka/ | http://www.ID3renamer.com

Re: [Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

Jiri Cincura wrote:
> 
> consider this as a 1st concept. Take it, "mashup" it, do it best. :)

Please don't consider my words a critique of your draft proposal, but I 
believe we should do some preliminary steps before:

- set up a set of categories our pages could belong to
- enumerate all the existing pages and assign them appropriate 
categories (multiple choices are allowed)
- rank the categories by number of pages

This would show us what menu items and sidebar sections would suit our 
contents better. I don't think that e.g. Download or Documentation 
sections require this approach, but some others IMHO do.


Dmitry

[Firebird-website] Structure of website proposal - 1st draft

[Jiri C. <di...@ci...>]

Hello *,

consider this as a 1st concept. Take it, "mashup" it, do it best. :)

I would like to have new structure absolutely clear in first and
second level. Then it can be bunch of pages. The first level will be
as a main guide-post. The second level for good orientation in section
(links, navigation bar, ...)

So my propose is:
/download
  ./firebird
    ./2.5
    ./2.1
    ...
  ./net-provider
  ./jaybird
  ...
/documentation
  ./firebird
    ./2.5
      ./release-notes
      ./lang-ref
      ...
    ./2.1
  ./net-provider
  ...
/development
/resources
  ./news
  ./mailing-lists
  ./tracker
  ./conferences
  ...
/foundation (maybe can be under other)
/other
  ./licensing, FB brand, logos, everything else

It's not much different from current state, just little tune up.

-- 
Jiri {x2} Cincura (CTO x2develop.com)
http://blog.vyvojar.cz/jirka/ | http://www.ID3renamer.com

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Roman R. <ro...@ro...>]

> However, this is all about basic theme / skin. We also need to define
> the basic site layout, and I will create a separate thread for its
> discussion.

Agree. Just a tip - when we start to talk about layout, it would be good 
to see these sites before:

http://www.mysql.com
http://www.postgresql.org
http://www.ingres.com/

Also these might be of interest:

http://www.eclipse.org
http://www.openoffice.org

Roman

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Pavel C. <pc...@ib...>]

marius popa napsal(a):
> Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few
> designs for the new firebirdsql.org website
> He asked for feedback and what should be done next

Wow, that was quick :-)

> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg
> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg
> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg

Well, I understand that these are just quick mock-ups that rehash the
current website just to showcase the potential, so I'll judge them as such.

My first impression when I saw them was that Bandean is a man we're
waited for so long, because he was able to put up few proposals that are
"almost there" with very little information what we're looking for. For
me it's clear sign that he has the right kind of artistic intuition and
professionalism needed to come with truly amazing design when we'll get
our ducks in line and feed him with our requirements, and I'm looking
forward to our cooperation on new Firebird web site.

Now to the designs:

- The first one is too cold. The red and scarce use of orange doesn't
really fits well into mostly blue palette.

- The second one is too "flashy", because there is too much bright
orange for otherwise light blue-toned colours. I see that first two
designs are attempts to came with design that meets the request for
"corporate yet firebirdy theme", as blue+grey+white palette is corporate
one while orange is firebirdy. Unfortunately, these colours don't fit
together at all. Thanks to Bandean everyone can see that now, so we can
move forward :-)

- In third design, Bandean gave up on "corporate" palette and came with
"sexy firebird" theme and it's clearly the step in right direction.
However, it's "too sexy", so we'd need to "scale it down" a bit. The
black page border is at fault here. Without it (just with good old white
border), it would look more corporate as required. We can play a bit
with grey scale and shadows, borders and frames here to keep contrast
for main page content.

So I see the third one as best starting point for next iteration.

1. The header is almost perfect, it just needs to be lowered a bit: by
removing the donate button (we'll put it on download page and other most
visited areas, it doesn't need to be in page header) and by putting the
menu bar on the side of logo image.

2. The colour scheme is good. The soft orange used on sidebar is nice,
but we need to avoid heavy use of areas with vivid orange backgrounds
(like title box and attention box in example design). We can try to play
with orange scale here or better try to use various frames (solid,
fading etc.) for these areas instead solid background.

3. Change the page border as described before.

4. We have to find the style for most frequently used elements: H1-4,
hyper links, EM, PRE/source code listings, BR, various boxes (for tips,
side notes etc.).

However, this is all about basic theme / skin. We also need to define
the basic site layout, and I will create a separate thread for its
discussion.

best regards
Pavel Cisar
IBPhoenix
Firebird Project QA & website

Re: [Firebird-website] [] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Milan B. <mi...@pa...>]

Helen Borrie wrote:
>> BTW, could you use the new FlameRobin icon? (Actually, it is not that 
>> new, it's two years old).
> 
> I've not seen it anywhere except on the 16-colour icons in the Windows version of the software - and then only if you use the "Large Icons" option, which I never do. at 32 * 32 pixels there's nothing useful to do with it.

It has been available from the website in "Developer pages" section 
since 2006. I do admit you have to dig 3 links deep to get there. 
However, due to some sf.net changes, our Wiki is no longer accessible.

> main page of the Firebird site and tell me whether that is the current FR icon

Yes.

> Note that it is "flamerobin4.gif" for us, which means you guys have had lots of icons!

We have different sizes, and 2 variants (with and without a white 
background circle.

> Next time you change it, you might like to think about sending us a copy.

Sure. Although, there are no plans to change it again - ever.

Thanks,

-- 
Milan Babuskov
http://www.flamerobin.org
http://www.guacosoft.com

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Milan B. <mi...@pa...>]

Helen Borrie wrote:
>> Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 
>> 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff 
>> can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch.
> 
> Why do you think the current website does not work that way?

I really did not think about current website at all. I was just hoping 
that the new website would work that way.

> How often do you study our URLs? ;-)

As you probably noted by the "icon issue", I hardly find the time to 
study URLs at flamerobin website, not to mention any other. So the 
answer would be: never :)


-- 
Milan Babuskov
http://www.flamerobin.org
http://www.guacosoft.com

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Helen B. <he...@ii...>]

At 16:48 9/10/2008, Milan Babuskov wrote:


>Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 
>'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff 
>can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch.

Why do you think the current website does not work that way?  How often do you study our URLs? ;-)

HB

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Lester C. <le...@ls...>]

Dmitry Yemanov wrote:
> Milan Babuskov wrote:
>>> These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public 
>>> image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown 
>>> them in frivolous and  subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on 
>>> the current structure. Afterwards  you can start to fight as hell on 
>>> your preferred hue of gray and orange.
>> FWIW, I agree.
>>
>> Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 
>> 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff 
>> can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch.
> 
> Sounds reasonable :-)

So what about the existing content engine that is already running?
Any of these proposed themes can be added to that and even made switchable 
with very little work. Existing content can easily be ported over, and the 
navigation can be changed very easily. I'm more than happy drop one of these 
proposed style sheets in place of the current 'firebird2' theme on 
http://wiki.firebirdsql.org/
We can even MAKE it fixed with if people insist ;) but something that scales 
to the browser capabilities makes a lot more sense these days?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

[Firebird-website] Pavel?

[Martijn T. <m.t...@up...>]

Are you on this list?

Martijn Tonies
Database Workbench - tool for InterBase, Firebird, MySQL, NexusDB, Oracle &
MS SQL Server
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com
My thoughts:
http://blog.upscene.com/martijn/
Database development questions? Check the forum!
http://www.databasedevelopmentforum.com

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

Milan Babuskov wrote:
> 
>> These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public 
>> image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown 
>> them in frivolous and  subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on 
>> the current structure. Afterwards  you can start to fight as hell on 
>> your preferred hue of gray and orange.
> 
> FWIW, I agree.
> 
> Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 
> 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff 
> can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch.

Sounds reasonable :-)


Dmitry

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Milan B. <mi...@pa...>]

Giovanni Premuda wrote:
> I've seen dozens of project fail this way, when the designer simply 
> throws the towel.

Me too.

> These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public 
> image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown 
> them in frivolous and  subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on 
> the current structure. Afterwards  you can start to fight as hell on 
> your preferred hue of gray and orange.

FWIW, I agree.

Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 
'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff 
can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch.

-- 
Milan Babuskov
http://www.flamerobin.org
http://www.guacosoft.com

Re: [Firebird-website] [] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Helen B. <he...@ii...>]

At 00:36 9/10/2008, Milan Babuskov wrote:

>BTW, could you use the new FlameRobin icon? (Actually, it is not that 
>new, it's two years old).

I've not seen it anywhere except on the 16-colour icons in the Windows version of the software - and then only if you use the "Large Icons" option, which I never do. at 32 * 32 pixels there's nothing useful to do with it.

I scoured the 'net via Google images and found something like the Windows icon at some obscure website that seems to exist for no other purpose but to display icons for FOSS software.  However, considering that they have a Firebird logo there that is *really ancient*, I don't have much hope that I have found the *current* Flamerobin icon.  It is nowhere to be seen on FR's own website (unless of course the current one is a 100% transparent gif!).

Please look at the main page of the Firebird site and tell me whether that is the current FR icon.  Note that it is "flamerobin4.gif" for us, which means you guys have had lots of icons!  Next time you change it, you might like to think about sending us a copy.

Helen

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Helen B. <he...@ii...>]

At 20:32 8/10/2008, you wrote:
>Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few
>designs for the new firebirdsql.org website

As an exercise in cosmetics, it is interesting...he's proposing we change our colour scheme from red-on-green to Firefox's orange-and-blue look.  If we go with that, it is an open invitation to the Firefox roadies to slashdot us.

>He asked for feedback

It's not clear what feedback is wanted.  The colour scheme, fonts, etc., are driven by a CSS that can be changed in a heartbeat.  New images for the navigator menu would take a little longer  (and, I mean, a LITTLE).  IOW, if a new colour scheme is being proposed, we can run a variety of proposals on the live site without a lot of effort.

>and what should be done next

For Bandean, nothing, I suggest - unless he is happy to carry on creating mockups that have no association with any requirements.  

Marius, in case you missed the posting of 6 days ago, please visit http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?op=devel&sub=web&id=main_pending

So far, exactly 0 suggestions have appeared in the Tracker and no response whatsoever has come from the members of the group that began the initiative.

If Bandean *is* going to continue doing mockups as an exercise, it might make sense to get the spelling right. It's not generally a good idea to knock letters out of words as way to make them fit inside an outline. ;-) 

For others - if you want to walk your talk then what are you waiting for?  For example - a far from exhaustive list -- 

1.  If you don't like the way the website content is partitioned currently then come up with groupings that you like better.

2.  Make some realistic proposals about getting *content* onto Firebird's own website, rather than spread around the 'net in a variety of places.

3.  Tell us what your web talents are and in what ways you are both ABLE and WILLING to help Firebird.

4.  Describe content management techniques that you envisage as having a specific value for Firebird and its community. 

... and so on. 

Helen

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Giovanni P. <gpr...@so...>]

 > nice, ugly, I don't like the color

I've seen dozens of project fail this way, when the designer simply 
throws the towel.
These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public 
image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown 
them in frivolous and  subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on 
the current structure. Afterwards  you can start to fight as hell on 
your preferred hue of gray and orange.
 
Giovanni

[Firebird-website] Oops... Meant #3

[Myles W. <my...@te...>]

Sorry, please replace my reference to liking #1 to #3.  Typo.

Myles

===============================
Myles Wakeham
Director of Engineering
Tech Solutions USA, Inc.
Scottsdale, Arizona USA
www.techsolusa.com
Phone +1-480-451-7440

[Firebird-website] Website options

[Myles W. <my...@te...>]

I'm liking the #1 format the best so far:

http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg

However I wasn't aware that this project had commenced with design
submissions.  I know I kicked in some money on this a while back, but hadn't
heard what the status was so far.  I'm probably late on arriving to this
list, but would appreciate if someone could bring me up to speed on this.

Thanks
Myles

===============================
Myles Wakeham
Director of Engineering
Tech Solutions USA, Inc.
Scottsdale, Arizona USA
www.techsolusa.com
Phone +1-480-451-7440

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Carlos H. C. <li...@wa...>]

About colors, I liked #3.

I would change the "donate" image to a better one.

I hope this first draft is just to check colors and layout, since I
see many things on it that remembers me of the actual website (what I
really would like to avoid).

Going further, I would simplify the sidebar (too many items). It would
need just main ones, that would send user to another page with clean
and well organized links about the selected subject.

So, I guess before "improving" anything, we need to build a structure
tree of the site sections and its contents.

[]s
Carlos H. Cantu
http://www.warmboot.com.br
FireBase - http://www.FireBase.com.br
Blog - http://blog.firebase.com.br

mp> Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few
mp> designs for the new firebirdsql.org website
mp> He asked for feedback and what should be done next

mp> Please to send the feedback on firebird-website mailing list
mp> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-website

mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg
mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg
mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

All,

I agree with Paul that the "official" orange color is too strong if used 
as the background for large areas, but it should still be very good for 
the logo/title text and probably section captions. One idea that could 
be possibly derived from all the proposed pictures is a combination of 
three colors: orange (see above), 50% gray/blue (other backgrounds, like 
in demos #1 and #2) and white (text area). I'd like to avoid the plain 
gray color we can see at the demo #1. The color scheme #3 is too much 
contrasty (which does attract quick attention but it's IMHO not very 
professional). I'm also not sure about the black areas there (especially 
if the site is going to be center aligned on the screen).

Other thoughts from the top of my head:

  - menu items should be visually separated (e.g. by divider lines)

  - sidebar should also be separated from the text region, either by 
drawings or by color

  - it might look good to isolate sidebar sections also by drawings, 
similar to ingres.com, just placed vertically

  - the expanded menu color should be more different from the underlying 
text color (demo #3 shows a bad example here)

  - I do like the 3D look (mostly area overflows, not shadows) of the 
layout in demo #3, but I'm not going to insist :-)

As a side note, I'm not really sure we need an expandable menu. It was 
considered a cool feature a few years ago, but I think it becomes less 
popular nowadays. Also, a cleverly organized sidebar with quick links to 
most popular pages mostly eliminates the need in such a menu, as it's 
usually not a big problem to go through two pages for rare hyper-jumps.

Just my $0.02 :-)


Dmitry

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

Jiri Cincura wrote:
>
> I was proposing getting some agreement on new/old structure as first
> step. But it looks like, that everybody is happy with current state.
> :)

I'm more or less okay with the current ideology but not with the 
navigation :-) Anyway, more on this later.


Dmitry

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...>]

Paul Vinkenoog wrote:
> 
> I think we can discuss both. It's true that structural requirements may limit our choices for the layout, but IMO not in such a rigid way that we can't talk about colour palettes and general 'look and feel' before we have the structure wrapped up.

This is okay to me. My point was mostly about the web developer who 
might go too much deep into the details before we agree on the "core".

> I just wanted to reply quickly to the three designs, particularly because I wanted to show my appreciation. And I also find it very stimulating to have something tangible to look at, even if it's "only" a page design.

Same for me :-)


Dmitry

Re: [Firebird-website] A few mockups for firebirdsql.org website

[Paul V. <pa...@vi...>]

Dmitry Yemanow wrote:

> Should we really discuss the visual design (which includes not only the
> colors/style but also the contents layout) without having an agreement
> on the overall website structure (e.g. what should be exposed through
> the main page)?

I think we can discuss both. It's true that structural requirements may limit our choices for the layout, but IMO not in such a rigid way that we can't talk about colour palettes and general 'look and feel' before we have the structure wrapped up.

But... I'm also perfectly happy to discuss structure first and style later. I just wanted to reply quickly to the three designs, particularly because I wanted to show my appreciation. And I also find it very stimulating to have something tangible to look at, even if it's "only" a page design.

> Wouldn't it possibly imply a more complex layout than
> the current "sidebar plus the news track" one that Paul V. seems to like

Gee, I hope not! :-)

Yes, for some pages it may be necessary. But I think that the vast majority of our informational pages (and especially the home page) could and should do with one sidebar and a main content area.

> Or was there a decision to keep the current structure "as is"
> (without considering anything else) for the time being?

Hmm, can't remember. What I do know is that our on-disk structure, the way we have organized our files on the web server, is incredibly messy in places. But this is something we can solve independently from the visual design (though not always completely independently from the internal page structure, with its PHP scripts that walk directories and expect certain files to be in certain places).


Cheers,
Paul Vinkenoog