fabulously-optimized / Tickets / #257 Quilt Loader impacts

Anonymous - 2022-03-11

Originally posted by: Kichura

Replying to this as it seems relevant to my personal needs:

The privacy context is the top priority and that i do not wish for everyone to be affected by a blocking-wall in a sense that for example being that you are only allowed to use sodium instead of optifabric / canvas renderer due to the server owner choosing this type of path instead of letting the user decide on what they want to use in this respect,

and while i do recognize that this would reduce cheaters to a minimium - this would in turn cause server owners/quilt developers have to whitelist/blacklist multiple mods in hopes this would be effective which...unfortunately isn't. it would in fact make things worse for novice/experienced modders as they must obey on what the server owners want people to use. (malicious or not)

The compatibility mode is helpful so that mod developers have more time to decide on rather they wanna make the jump to quilt in it's entirety or not as it is considered fair similar to forge -> fabric jumping. Although i am not sure on how many developers are considering this as some of them haven't seen this yet or just aren't ready for it due to burnouts and all that - but i assume documentations could help this a bit but who knows?

I am looking forward to the beta obviously. although with the two things i have discussed along with madis; this would be considered questionable in some ways as i cannot be sure on how well the migration will turn out - even if i decline it; i just cannot guarantee the final result(s) of it.
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Anonymous - 2022-03-12

Originally posted by: surfaceflinger

Privacy issues can be easily resolved by adding a mod that would make the client look like vanilla. Wurst already has this as a module, but not standalone + it would create the same concerns as their zoom mod.

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Anonymous - 2022-03-12

Originally posted by: Kichura

Privacy issues can be easily resolved by adding a mod that would make the client look like vanilla. Wurst already has this as a module, but not standalone + it would create the same concerns as their zoom mod.

Well the main problem with this is that people can still figure out what your client is regardless of brand name so this won't change anything - it needs a more prior approach when trying to reduce exposure.

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Anonymous - 2022-03-12

Originally posted by: TiboOpGithub

Privacy issues can be easily resolved by adding a mod that would make the client look like vanilla. Wurst already has this as a module, but not standalone + it would create the same concerns as their zoom mod.

Well the main problem with this is that people can still figure out what your client is regardless of brand name so this won't change anything - it needs a more prior approach when trying to reduce exposure.

The problem isn't that they see you using quilt (I think) but as long as you can make sure the server doesn't see all your mods by having a mod it seems like a good solution.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-09

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

As a quilt dev... I Just want to add something quickly here about the common assumptions about the modlist sending in quilt, it will not be in the loader, it will be in the qsl networking module and i highly doubt any mods in FO right now use the networking module from at least fabric.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-09

Originally posted by: Madis0

As a quilt dev... I Just want to add something quickly here about the common assumptions about the modlist sending in quilt, it will not be in the loader, it will be in the qsl networking module and i highly doubt any mods in FO right now use the networking module from at least fabric.

Alright, but if any single mod uses that, the module still sends the entire modlist, right?

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Anonymous - 2022-04-13

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

As a quilt dev... I Just want to add something quickly here about the common assumptions about the modlist sending in quilt, it will not be in the loader, it will be in the qsl networking module and i highly doubt any mods in FO right now use the networking module from at least fabric.

Alright, but if any single mod uses that, the module still sends the entire modlist, right?

Yes.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

Instead of just adding reactions to my comment i think it would be better for you to actually join the quilt discord to have a good ol' chat since github issues is not a good place to explain this, https://discord.quiltmc.org/.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

Also you will be fully able to patch this out

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

Fabulously Optimized deems that as an invasion of users' privacy and freedom. No one should be banned because they use "too many mods" or "not the right zoom mod". The servers can already ban any cheaters or rule disobeyers with existing, heuristical plugins, they do not need to see the names of the client mods for that (nor do the cheat mods announce themselves anyway). Quilt has said there will be no configuration or opt-out for that system, so one must hope there will be an external mod that can opt this out.

This isn't meant to be a anticheat, also if the server doesn't allow you to use like a zoom mod for a example just don't play on that server

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: maximumpower55

Also this might be a bit off topic, but forge does this exact same thing and no body seems to care about that

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: Madis0

@maximumpower55

Instead of just adding reactions to my comment i think it would be better for you to actually join the quilt discord to have a good ol' chat since github issues is not a good place to explain this, https://discord.quiltmc.org/.

I did it last year, it initiated a long discussion: https://discord.com/channels/817576132726620200/847158608524345394/857245880466145280
The result was: https://discord.com/channels/817576132726620200/847158608524345394/857601674167975966

Feel free to ping me there if you want to add anything to that discussion.

Also this might be a bit off topic, but forge does this exact same thing and no body seems to care about that

[sarcasm]

Indeed I don't care about that as

I no longer use Forge

I do not make a Forge modpack

I do not play on servers that do this

[/sarcasm]

...but that's not the point. People want an alternative to Optifine and I provide that.

I do my best to choose the best mods but I know that if someone would get a feature nerfed on a server (or maybe the server not liking the mod list altogether), they will want to or be forced to return to said Optifine. And that behavior is unhealthy for the entire modding community - getting blamed just because you're using the wrong thing, not because you broke any rules with that thing.
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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

Hello! Quilt community manager here.

I just woke up so this may not be the most fantastic of responses, apologies.

The mod list packet is not designed to be an anti-cheat solution. Quilt will not be providing any mechanism to filter users based on it, nor will it be taking steps to make it difficult to patch out. As mentioned earlier, it will be part of the QSL networking module and, as it's a standard plugin channel packet, will require the server to be listening for it before sending anything.

The main reason the packet exists is to ease moderation in Quilt community spaces where the intention of a mod developer is ambiguous. It was a response to the long-winded issue about how to define cheat/utility mods - for grey-area mods, this will give us a yardstick to figure out whether the mod developer intends for their mod to be used on servers that do not want their mod to be used there.

Most of us completely agree that this isn't an ideal solution, and we'd love to get some suggestions on better approaches. That said, it's been an awful long time now, and we haven't really seen anything reasonable other than "screw what you need, remove it". Ultimately, we accept that some servers do not have competent or reasonable staff members, and that is the main drawback - but I also personally believe this is possible to mitigate with a good community solution to blacklisting categories of mods, rather than forcing server owners to do it themselves (although, as mentioned before, Quilt as an org will not be providing ways to action these packets).

Essentially:

The mod-list packet is not anti-cheat, is deliberately not designed to be resilient enough to be used as anti-cheat, and largely exists to help our moderators resolve grey area mod reviews in official Quilt spaces only

Yes, the approach has undeniable drawbacks. Got something better? I'd love to hear it.

I personally don't feel this is as large an issue as some people make it out to be - even though it is undeniably an issue, I believe we can get pretty far by educating server owners, and working with the community to come up with a good tool for category-based filtering that doesn't encourage server owners to inspect users' mod lists

If you're not developing a mod that could be considered cheating by conventional standards, we likely won't think to check for a patch - but we'd like to stress that including one makes it much easier for malicious mods to work around server restrictions

I think that's about all for now - I am unlikely to reply to this issue for a while since I have a pile of stuff to do before the beta on the 20th, but I do appreciate people's concerns here and would love to see a better solution to this problem post-beta. Feel free to hit me up on Discord if needed.
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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: Madis0

@gdude2002 Thanks for the reply.
In my opinion, a reasonable solution would be to broadcast only the mods that use said networking API instead of all mods the client has. Because obviously the server needs to communicate with the mods that network and this would preserve the privacy of mods that do not network at all or use a different method (like a different API).

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

@gdude2002 Thanks for the reply. In my opinion, a reasonable solution would be to broadcast only the mods that use said networking API instead of all mods the client has. Because obviously the server needs to communicate with the mods that network and this would preserve the privacy of mods that do not network at all or use a different method (like a different API).

That's an interesting solution - how would you go about denoting this?

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: Madis0

Perhaps the API could provide a listener and all mods that register on it get their list sent at once?

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

Doesn't that just make it opt-in? Kinda defeats the point

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: TheMadHau5

It doesn't really help against "grey-area" mods either.

A common pattern in 1.8 cheats was to co-opt a well known "good" mod (say, keypress or cps mods) and then patch it with cheat functionality and distribute that.
This system (like Forge's) is completely ineffective to that.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: Madis0

Doesn't that just make it opt-in? Kinda defeats the point

Hmm no, I meant like if they want to use the abilities of the API, they must notify the API of their presence first and then the API records that and provides the methods.
Like instantiating a class, though that's a bit different concept.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

I feel like this wouldn't work out for a number of reasons:

It'd make the API surface incompatible and generally worse

Most of the grey-area mods I'm thinking of wouldn't be using the networking API in the first place

Either way, probs better to have this discussion in a Quilt space - I'm not a Quilt dev (the Community Team is completely separate) and I doubt most of the devs are aware of this thread
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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

It doesn't really help against "grey-area" mods either.

A common pattern in 1.8 cheats was to co-opt a well known "good" mod (say, keypress or cps mods) and then patch it with cheat functionality and distribute that. This system (like Forge's) is completely ineffective to that.

This isn't an anti-cheat! This is about moderation issues in Quilt spaces. I've said that a couple times.

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: Madis0

@gdude2002

Either way, probs better to have this discussion in a Quilt space - I'm not a Quilt dev (the Community Team is completely separate) and I doubt most of the devs are aware of this thread

Could you refer to the most appropriate place for this discussion (e.g. specific thread in Quilt's discord)?
Don't really want to post in the wrong place and get an answer "this has been discussed already".

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

Probably the best thing to do is make a thread on the toolchain server entitled "modid list alternatives" or something like that, in #qsl-general

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: RaptaG

https://github.com/PolyMC/PolyMC/issues/406 Support from PolyMC (?)

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Anonymous - 2022-04-16

Originally posted by: gdude2002

We've confirmed support in both ATLauncher and PolyMC so far, yes.

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#257 Quilt Loader impacts

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