exprla-devel Mailing List for XPL: eXtensible Programming Language (Page 3)
Status: Pre-Alpha
Brought to you by:
xpl2
Menu
▾
▴
exprla-devel — This is the Developers' list for the for XPL
You can subscribe to this list here.
| 2002 |
Jan
(198) |
Feb
(40) |
Mar
|
Apr
|
May
|
Jun
|
Jul
|
Aug
|
Sep
|
Oct
|
Nov
|
Dec
|
|---|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:38:48
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Great Mark, I am glad to read all this. A couple of things - I don't think that we have established a clear goal yet; please tell me what you see that has been established. Maybe I am the only one confused about our goal for XPL. I have ideas, but they are not the same as other people's ideas here, and I don't think there is a firm statement of purpose. If you mean the concept of XPL-Fog, I am not sure if that has been accepted (personally, I like that one line vision you stated). I looked at the messages relating to it, and saw Jonathan and Kurt in particular making some very interesting comments, and what not, and then it dropped, seemingly because it's out of scope, or maybe more to do with the idea of building a evolving 'net and the implications of that. That's pretty far into the future (the evolving 'net), but I ask again, isn't that what the .NET concept and J2EE (don't know enough about Oracle's me-too tech. .NOW) will eventually lead to? Anyhow .... We need to clear this up. That's what the requirements thing (what is XPL required to accomplish) is supposed to clarify. We haven't had nearly enough discussion about the requirements Jonathan put up, so I am not ready to say that these are established yet. However, after we get the web site up, then it should be easier to review that which has been pretty much agreed upon. We'll get there. Everything else you mentioned, I am happy to hear, and certainly believe you would be excellent in the role of community awareness/management. I have no problems with that. There has to be some organization. However, I don't speak for the group. This is exactly the type of thing that we need to seriously work out. There has got to be a forum to collaborate, and even vote on issues (such as roles), and share code, check them in, etc.... Is there an opensource app. available out there that anyone can suggest for such a thing? I don't think we will get very far without some instant messaging and what not to collaborate, brainstorm, etc... with. I would say NetMeeting, but I highly doubt that everyone will be using Windows. One last question; kind of embarrassing: Who is Anthony, and what document are you referring to? Sincerely, Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] Sent: July 4, 2000 7:18 PM To: xpl@e... Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL Richard, that is no problem. I am all for supporting XPL (and XPipes and WorldOS and Metaset). These are organic by-the-people and for- the-people project. Besides, I like hangin around smart people... makes me feel good. OK, so when you edit your page and make it a home, I will promote the hell out of it. My only suggestion is to SET EXPECTATIONS. What this means is that first impressions count. People will want to see documents like you provided Anthony. They will want to know what he goal is (you have all estalished that quite well) and by comparing the MS, Oracle and Sun goals with your own will be VERY enticing. Have a clearly defined 1 line vision is important. "To build a data cloud everyone can use" could be one. Whatever. But, yes, when you have your sub-web up, I will promote it for you. In the longer run, with so many exciting projects floating around the .NET (aaargh, I couldn't resist it!) I would like to centralise them in a place where they can feed off each other. I am good at this kind of stuff. (I am currently very into organic designs and natural systems, whee people with different needs cooperate to form a better whole, like VBXML does). WARNING: I have seen many of these types of projects burn out in a twinkling of an eye. They exist, they burn brightly, then they die. To avoid this, they sell out or get sponsors (WROX?) etc... Let's not do this. All it takes is a clear vision, *community awareness/management* and constant momentum. If you guys ever assign roles to yourselves, I would like to take the role of community awareness/management - and the first thing I would do is have you move into the VBXML website and get more concrete about your steps going forward. Last comment. I don't pretend to be an XSL guru. I don't pretend to understand how you will build what you want to build. But I really am keen to help you survive the first few years as a community - the aspect which technical groups usually lose focus on. Thoughts? Cheers, Mark. --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > Mark, > I know we don't have much to link to, but can you put up something on > VBXML's main page to link to XPL's page? Nobody knows we are there. We > need more people to work on this. Maybe wait a few days until I have my > compilation done, and people here now, especially our writers (Kurt :-) > reviews it and adds his comments and changes to it (ie. chops it up ;-)? > > Richard A. Hein > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] > Sent: July 4, 2000 8:17 AM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > > > OR! > > you guys could simply move into the > http://www.vbxml.com/xpl > location I set up for you some time back. > > That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into > contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when > you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think > you would be better off). > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Mark. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -------- > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -------- > -- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:37:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Kurt, One of the names I sent you might be good for your XPipes project; if you like it, go ahead and take it - not like I could stop you, but you have my blessing in any case. Michael is talking about http://www.vbxml.com/xpl There hasn't been anything posted there since the beginning though. I am worried about the health of XPL now; we haven't been getting the requirements or anything done. I have been working on compiling up the stuff we've discussed to put it in a format that's easier for new people to get a grip on the things we've been talking about, and for people who have been following the conversations to review and comment on past discussions that have never been resolved. Unfortunately, I have just gotten carpal tunnel syndrome, and my right wrist is killing me. So it's going to take a while before I get it done. Maybe a week. At that time, hopefully we will have a web site layout and can post some articles on XPL's status, including "The State of XPL", as I am calling my compilation and review article. Kurt, I remember going over an article on vbxml about making an XML/XSL content management document, allowing examples and articles to be easily updated with new code samples and tutorial articles. I think this would be a good layout for my document, especially if people can annotate in the article and code sections. The straight article is simple enough. Any ides about how to expand the concept to make it annotatable? Or does anyone have any better ideas on some decent ways to collaborate on documents at the site? Software suggestions, high-level concepts and raw code are all requested on this issue. We also need a way to accept registration for the XPL site. In addition, someone with knowledge about licensing will have to find out what the legal issues are, if we post information about XPL. I am not sure, but I think if we just give away information without copyrighting it in some fashion, people can just steal it and use it on their own proprietary projects. Then in the future, XPL could be harmed if that person/company tries to sue us for using "their" code. Any thoughts? I think there are so many issues that touch on XPL right now that are not being discussed. The new language C# that Microsoft is developing might not be the same syntactically to XPL's ideas, but it is built on the concept of XML "data clouds" (that's MS's term for XML-fog), and web services. This is a direct competitor to XPL. I was reviewing the W3C's information on how to start an activity group, what documentation is needed, and what should be in that documentation (a "Note"), and one of the issues is what competition is out there. There are other issues that demand attention, and so I have been trying to expose people to those questions. How does XPL compare to other technologies, is one of them. What effect will XPL have on other technologies (specifically W3C's, but also others), what dependencies exist, and so forth. These all MUST be discussed and put into the Note, for it to even be considered. Of course there isn't much point in trying to discuss this, if we haven't even answered the question: What is XPL supposed to accomplish? When I asked for requirements, that's what I meant. I still think other general requirements are good to have right now, but the most vital are concerning what XPL is supposed to DO. Is it a full-out language? A meta-language? An engine to stream and coordinate other XML technologies? Does it work with the "fog", as a "fog"? Etc .... Remember when I wrote, "don't put the genie back into the bottle", Jonathan et al? Take a look at what Microsoft's .NET concept is dedicated to accomplishing, and tell me - isn't that the genie? MS is already working big time on "data clouds" of XML and web services that use them. Oracle thinks they already have it with .NOW (rediculous), and Sun claims it will be done with Java using J2EE. There is no opensource equivalent to compete against these corporations right now, that I can see. Plus, they are all trying to do it with technology that was never meant to pull off this feat. It's really just a great big HACK. So, if we start with a blank state, based on TOTALLY standard implementation across the board, I think it won't take "many, many years" to pull off the way MS says it will, as they try to figure out hacks to everything. But it will still take "many years" to pull off, and a LOT of people. The Apache group, Mozilla, etc, are all sources from which to draw strength. So let's build up the vision of what XPL will BE, and recruit people to help make it happen. Here's a format: 1.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or synchronous format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous data, including non-XML media types. 2.. XPL will format output using XSL. 3.. XPL will transform XML data using XSLT. 4.. XPL will be optimized to operate on a peer-to-peer network, however client-server models and offline computing will also be supported fully. 5.. XPL will use agents, among other methods to operate on XML. 6.. XPL will use RDF to locate resources. 7.. XPL will use XLink to create, follow, and generate links between resources. 8.. XPL will use XPath as the language to describe resource locations. 9.. XPL will be an interface-based object-oriented language, and the interfaces will be exposed as XML 1.0 compliant XML (although the programs themselves may or may not be). 10.. XPL will NEVER support APIs that are not FULLY opensource and public domain, as closed source APIs may fork XPL. Anyone MAY create private APIs, however, they MAY NOT publish or redistribute said APIs outside of private or corporate usage, unless first reviewed, accepted, integrated (into the XPL API library) and simultaneously published by the XPL working group. Upon such an event, the API also becomes opensource and public domain under the license terms which XPL operates under (yet to be decided). There's ten. They are simple, and say at least a few things that XPL will do. Comments? Number 10 is a tricky one. Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: cagle@o... [mailto:cagle@o...] Sent: July 4, 2000 11:24 AM To: xpl@e... Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL Oh, I missed that one. When did you set it up? -- Kurt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wilson" <mark_tracey@y...> To: <xpl@e...> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 5:17 AM Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > OR! > > you guys could simply move into the > http://www.vbxml.com/xpl > location I set up for you some time back. > > That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into > contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when > you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think > you would be better off). > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Mark. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > Replace complicated scripts using 14 new HTML tags that work in > current browsers. > Form the Web today - visit: > http://click.egroups.com/1/5769/2/_/809694/_/962713022/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:37:05
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Ok, suits me just fine.
[Richard Anthony Hein] From: me@m...
[mailto:me@m...]On Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 4, 2000 10:39 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Mark Wilson wrote:
OR!
you guys could simply move into the
http://www.vbxml.com/xpl
location I set up for you some time back.
That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into
contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when
you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think
you would be better off).
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Mark
You know, fellows, he's perfectly right.
[ Cue piano ]
[ ROFL ]
Okay, okay! Enough with the piano. Ahem...
Any attention or respect the list gets, will be on account of our
own efforts.
Not that I mind, in the least, the extended umbrella of VBXML,
which would seem to include us in as sound and pleasant a
company as we could ask for.
And anyway, don't we all rather have our toes sticking out the
ends of our feet?
What we need, is a stable location in a nice and also relevant
neighbourhood, where we can put our findings, if any, where people
can actually find them, and meanwhile inviting passers-by to join
in the rowdy-do.
Plus, an isolated brick shed where we can let off explosions.
Is there any reason why I can't just say on behalf of all of us,
THANK YOU TRACE for the former, and THANK YOU LUCAS for the other?
If not, be it so resolved; and when I am once again in funds,
I will gladly pay for hamburgers all round, instead.
Jonathan Burns; saski@w...
Thus, my dull official .signature.
Thought that went off just as well without the piano, don'tcha
think?
Yeah. Y'know what we need is a religious war or two going on. Bring
the punters in, liven the place up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:36:45
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Mark Wilson wrote: > > OR! > > you guys could simply move into the > http://www.vbxml.com/xpl > location I set up for you some time back. > > That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into > contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when > you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think > you would be better off). > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Mark You know, fellows, he's perfectly right. [ Cue piano ] [ ROFL ] Okay, okay! Enough with the piano. Ahem... Any attention or respect the list gets, will be on account of our own efforts. Not that I mind, in the least, the extended umbrella of VBXML, which would seem to include us in as sound and pleasant a company as we could ask for. And anyway, don't we all rather have our toes sticking out the ends of our feet? What we need, is a stable location in a nice and also relevant neighbourhood, where we can put our findings, if any, where people can actually find them, and meanwhile inviting passers-by to join in the rowdy-do. Plus, an isolated brick shed where we can let off explosions. Is there any reason why I can't just say on behalf of all of us, THANK YOU TRACE for the former, and THANK YOU LUCAS for the other? If not, be it so resolved; and when I am once again in funds, I will gladly pay for hamburgers all round, instead. Jonathan Burns; saski@w... Thus, my dull official .signature. Thought that went off just as well without the piano, don'tcha think? Yeah. Y'know what we need is a religious war or two going on. Bring the punters in, liven the place up. --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:36:22
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Mark Wilson <mark_tracey@y...> wrote: OR! you guys could simply move into the http://www.vbxml.com/xpl location I set up for you some time back. That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think you would be better off). Thoughts? Cheers, Mark. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:35:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > How does Omnimark compare to what we want XPL to do? > Revised link: Omnimark On first sight, I like it a lot. They're dealing with markup primarily (What can we do to XML documents?); they're taking a grammatical approach, which I like (although I'm not sure whether we now want one which applies at the text syntax level, rather than the semantic); and it's stream-based from the outset, which Kurt will like. I get a flash that it might be a natural partner for WorldOS. It won't replace XPath/XSLT. I suspect it might not scale up to heavy document processing - which XPath/XSLT/XLinks must do, or die. But it may turn out to be just what I want in an XML source editor. I'll look into it, and return with comments in a few days. Thanks. Jonathan --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:35:28
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: How does Omnimark (http://www.omnimark.com/doc/narrativ/15.htm) compare to what we want XPL to do? Richard A. Hein --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:35:13
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Hi everyone. I have a really good name for a domain that could be used for XPL or specifically for the IDE and tools that will be built for using XPL. I want to donate it to the group of course. I would say what it is, but I am afraid someone will go and register it before we do. What should I do? I would have registered it (it's short, succinct and available; .com, .net and .org), but I honestly don't have a credit card (bad credit - my student loans are in default). I tried to contact Network Solutions about other payment methods, but they haven't gotten back to me yet. If someone as part of the group and on behalf of the group will register it, that would be perfect. Is there any interest in this? I will send you the name and you can consider it, but I am not sure about security in this issue. Advice? Richard A. Hein --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:34:43
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Basically, groves use a name-value pair property set which makes it simple to model schemas for non-XML data sources, such as an mpeg, or any other data type. You can take those property sets, in theory, and compile them into a header file. So we can treat the given media as an object, and pass it along quite effectively. Using the DOM is complicated for media types like MPEGs (it can't really be modeled by a hierarchy - it isn't that 'XMaLeble'). But if we want to pass information about objects like this, we need some way of effectively describing them. Groves, and the property sets, in theory, is the best known way to do this. Now, I do say "in theory": Jonathan is looking deeper into groves, and I am trying my best to understand it all. If you check on Jonathan's web site, he has an annotated copy of Paul Prescod's paper on Groves. It's not overly long, so check it out: - http://www.warehouse.net/saski/groves_annotated_1.0.html Jonathan understands this stuff a lot better than I do. HTH Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Sam Hunting [mailto:sam_hunting@y...] Sent: June 30, 2000 11:46 AM To: xpl@e... Cc: saski@w... Subject: Re: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML? Trying to get up to speed on this list, therefore please forgive redundancy-- --- Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: > Listen, did you get my long post a few days ago on what and when to > compile in XPL? I did my best to explain that time and memory savings > from compiling XML processing were likely to be lost in the larger > inefficiencies of the system, unless heroic measures were taken to > optimize the latter. Jonathan, I didn't get this mail. Can you repost? Richard -- I'm reasonably familiar with ISO 10744, but not with compiler issues at all. Can you summarize why you want to use groves for XPL? Thanks. Sam Hunting ===== <? "To imagine a language is to imagine a form of life." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations ?> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:34:17
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Jonathan, This might be a little helpful to you: http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/kimberXlink19981202.html Richard A. Hein --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:33:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Check out this site that shows that it is possible to differentiate a polynomial function with XSLT. Just the sort of thing I was talking about a while ago: http://incrementaldevelopment.com/papers/xsltrick/#differentiate Richard A. Hein --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:32:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: "208.1.204.8" <935551@i...> wrote in message news:<TFTQoBh4$GA.3016@L...>... > Jonathan and company: > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Sep- 1999/0812.html > Provides information on groves. This is from the XML-Dev archive. There > are plenty of others. Just take a look at the index. > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:32:15
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Here's and excerpt from the message I linked to below: "Just as we have a schema to allow XML documents in a class to be consistent we have a schema for groves called a "property set." This can even be compiled into a header file in a strongly typed programming language (just like a COM type library or OLE class)." Richard A. Hein "208.1.204.8" <935551@i...> wrote in message news:SPZRZ8g4$GA.2944@L... > Jonathan and company: > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Sep- 1999/0812.html > Provides information on groves. This is from the XML-Dev archive. There > are plenty of others. Just take a look at the index. > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:31:50
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: I guess I can use CC ... hmmm, first time for everything, here goes .... "Richard A. Hein" <935551@i...> wrote in message news:Nnslive4$GA.2168@L... > No problem. It's the whole inertia thing. The newsgroup format is so much > easier though, with threads nicely formatted. And it's MUCH faster than > egroups. I guess I wish there was a way to mirror egroups with this > newsgroup, then people could choose one or the other. I don't want to kill > egroups either, there is a lot of things, like file storage that could be > very useful, available on egroups. > > Richard A. Hein > > "Kurt Cagle" <cagle@o...> wrote in message > news:cIXCMTX4$GA.3016@L... > > Richard, > > > > Thanks for bringing this up again. I was beginning to think that the > > message board had effectively died (or that I screwed too badly with the > > permissions -- I hate Windows 2000!). I'll add my list here shortly. > > > > -- Kurt > > > > > > > > > > "Richard A. Hein" <935551@i...> wrote in message > > news:rDaV9BV4$GA.2172@L... > > > Make up your list of requirements (up to 20 items for now, unless you > > really > > > have to put more) for XPL. Past requirements and discussions will be > > posted > > > shortly. > > > > > > Richard A. Hein > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:31:27
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: -----Original Message----- From: root@m... [mailto:root@m...]On Behalf Of Jonathan Burns Sent: June 29, 2000 9:35 AM To: xpl@e... Subject: Re: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML? Richard ... lad ... are you all right? [Richard Anthony Hein] I was just really bored, sorry for wasting bandwidth everyone. You give the strongest impression of someone as disoriented with machine code as I am with the Hytime Spec ( yes! the dreaded 10744, and thank you for setting me onto the Groves path ). [Richard Anthony Hein] You're welcome! ;-) Listen, did you get my long post a few days ago on what and when to compile in XPL? [Richard Anthony Hein] Yes. I did my best to explain that time and memory savings from compiling XML processing were likely to be lost in the larger inefficiencies of the system, unless heroic measures were taken to optimize the latter. [Richard Anthony Hein] I thought this concept would be the heroic measure. Nevertheless, I see your point. Doesn't change the fact that there are all these different machines, and here we are writing a programming language. It has to have some kind of VM in order to be able to read the XPL code and process it. Or are we going to use Java to process the XPL and then send it to the VM? If that's the case, you better let me know; I have to understand a lot more about Java I/O stuff before I can even think about what it means. I really want to know, the PROCESS - what is the chain of events when you execute an XPL program? I guess we don't have it yet, do we? Despite this, I have a sense that taking XSLT processing down to the metal might yield benefits. Whether it's so, would depend on the profile of the processing. If we could demonstrate that there are critical loops, in which the same thing happens to a whole lot of data, and if these loops typically take up a lot of the time it takes to do useful things, then yes. [Richard Anthony Hein] In a sense, an optimizing compiler, that decides what those critical loops may be, compiles them, but leaves the rest in the information-rich form of XSLT? That's not quite what you were talking about, though. You were talking about making up descriptions of ISAs, in XML, and using these to generate the XPL compiler for each architecture. [Richard Anthony Hein] Yes. On the fly. Kind of a metacompiler - a compiler that takes instruction sets schemas as input and outputs a compiler. Not a stupid idea. But consider this. [Richard Anthony Hein] It's not? We're talking about compiling the XPL processing - i.e. the operations on the parsed data - the semantic stuff - the actual nodes and attributes. In other words, the operational semantics. [Richard Anthony Hein] Okay ... So what defines the operational semantics? Well, the XPL specification that we use. Which could be XPath/XSLT/XPointer/Xcetera. That's what we want to map to the target ISA. Big job, eh? Lots of operations in XPath - lots of options for pattern-matching, tree-walking, etc. And more of them in XSLT. OR, the base specification could be a set of Architectural Forms - i.e. property sets. And the XPath/XPointer/XSLT operations could be written, once and for all or nearly, in terms of them. [Richard Anthony Hein] Yes. I think so. Then what we would want is a mapping of a sufficient set of property set operations into the target ISA - plus a mapping of the relatively simple programming constructions which express each X-type operation in terms of them. [Richard Anthony Hein] ' Yes, and that semantics of patterns thing that we discussed earlier for XSLT (have you seen it? I think it's succinct), and XPath is available. We need one for XLink and the others, and then we can normalize it, if possible. Then what we have is pretty simple description of all the 'X' technologies in the same format. Map that to the instruction set, and the other way to the actual 'X' technology, like XSLTs syntax. The compiler/parser whatever it is going to be, simply transforms between them. Do I understand yet? Little job. And that is one reason why I am intensely interested in the Groves stuff, the property sets. I have not yet discovered any material to the effect: X- whatever Implemented In Groves. [Richard Anthony Hein] I'll search for it this afternoon. If it hasn't been done, it should be. I suspect I could do it, if I made it The Priority. [Richard Anthony Hein] If you want to, go for it. Maybe wait until we've searched for prior work, but if we don't find anything, then I guess I'll be The Priority for you Jonathan, if you like. Anyone else care to make it The Priority as well? I will do whatever I can to help. I figure I can do up some of it, after I look at the way you go about doing it. IT WOULD ELIMINATE A VERITABLE ARMY OF BUGS FROM XPL AT THE OUTSET. [Richard Anthony Hein] That's certainly a benefit. Property Set Architecture -> Instruction Set Architecture is where I think the value lies. [Richard Anthony Hein] Ok, so then this is saying to me, that we could really use the property sets of the 'X' techs to map to the ISA, and have ourselves a programming language - once we map all those property sets into XPL syntax, which uses XSLT and other stuff, and fill in all the holes that the property sets have with XPL specific property sets and semantics. There is no point in deciding what XPL can do before we know what all the other techs that are recommendations can already do, is there? SO, after figuring that out, we can fill the holes, and make a way to merge them all together in XPL. Do I understand? Grade me Jonathan, you must be used to it! :-) Jonathan "Ask anything!" he muttered, as he spat a small blue insect whirring into the gauze. "I would advise stilts for the quagmire Camels for the snowy hills And any survivors Their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way." - The Incredible String Band [Richard Anthony Hein] "... it's a hell of a start, it can be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team!" - Pink Floyd - Have a Cigar Richard A. Hein ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:31:01
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Richard Anthony Hein wrote: Ok ... [snivel] ... I WILL then! In fact I already started! [snivel ... snort] </insanity> <!-- if you can't find the start tag, it's because it was inserted into an earlier message on a totally unrelated newsgroup 4 years ago --><backtowork> Richard ... lad ... are you all right? You give the strongest impression of someone as disoriented with machine code as I am with the Hytime Spec ( yes! the dreaded 10744, and thank you for setting me onto the Groves path ). Listen, did you get my long post a few days ago on what and when to compile in XPL? I did my best to explain that time and memory savings from compiling XML processing were likely to be lost in the larger inefficiencies of the system, unless heroic measures were taken to optimize the latter. Despite this, I have a sense that taking XSLT processing down to the metal might yield benefits. Whether it's so, would depend on the profile of the processing. If we could demonstrate that there are critical loops, in which the same thing happens to a whole lot of data, and if these loops typically take up a lot of the time it takes to do useful things, then yes. That's not quite what you were talking about, though. You were talking about making up descriptions of ISAs, in XML, and using these to generate the XPL compiler for each architecture. Not a stupid idea. But consider this. We're talking about compiling the XPL processing - i.e. the operations on the parsed data - the semantic stuff - the actual nodes and attributes. In other words, the operational semantics. So what defines the operational semantics? Well, the XPL specification that we use. Which could be XPath/XSLT/XPointer/Xcetera. That's what we want to map to the target ISA. Big job, eh? Lots of operations in XPath - lots of options for pattern-matching, tree-walking, etc. And more of them in XSLT. OR, the base specification could be a set of Architectural Forms - i.e. property sets. And the XPath/XPointer/XSLT operations could be written, once and for all or nearly, in terms of them. Then what we would want is a mapping of a sufficient set of property set operations into the target ISA - plus a mapping of the relatively simple programming constructions which express each X-type operation in terms of them. Little job. And that is one reason why I am intensely interested in the Groves stuff, the property sets. I have not yet discovered any material to the effect: X-whatever Implemented In Groves. If it hasn't been done, it should be. I suspect I could do it, if I made it The Priority. IT WOULD ELIMINATE A VERITABLE ARMY OF BUGS FROM XPL AT THE OUTSET. Property Set Architecture -> Instruction Set Architecture is where I think the value lies. Jonathan "Ask anything!" he muttered, as he spat a small blue insect whirring into the gauze. "I would advise stilts for the quagmire Camels for the snowy hills And any survivors Their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way." - The Incredible String Band --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:30:23
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Kurt set up a newsgroup at <news://208.1.204.8/comp.text.xml.xpl> Please post your requirements and recommendations there, so it's easier to compile and discuss (trust me, I have been working on a compilation of material and requirements discussed so far, and it's a real pain getting archived messages from egroups the way I have been doing). Richard A. Hein --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:29:48
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Hmm, yes it was a typo ... I think. Either that or I was just half
asleep.
I guess your right about the virtual machine thing. I just meant
that it
would be a way to allow a program to be compiled using the specific
instruction set's schema, and in that manner would have something
like a
virtual machine, in that it converts/compiles (whatever) the program
to
binary when it's run. In that sense it there would be something akin
to a
VM that does that for you for an XPL program when it's first run.
Yeah, I know nothing about ISAs and compilers... so what? Do you
think the
people that made up ISAs knew about ISAs the first time they made a
stupid
ISA? Ya gotta start somewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 28, 2000 4:11 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: RE: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
"except compiled, but we don't have to compile it." What does that
mean??? I hope that's a typo, Mr. Contradiction.
Plus, it's nothing like a virtual machine. You don't know anything
about
compilers, or ISA, so keep your mouth shut dumb-ass!
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 28, 2000 4:07 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: RE: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
Why do you say that Richard? Please explain.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 28, 2000 4:05 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: RE: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
Boy Richard, that's a really stupid idea ....
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 19, 2000 3:16 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
I was wondering if it really would be possible to make a
schema to
describe
an ISA in XML and use that during construction of a compiler
for
XPL, that
can map XPL code to the ISA for a specific processor? Then if
another ISA
comes along, we can use XSLT to map the ISA to the XPL
compiler
specifically
based on the new ISA's schema? Any thoughts? Am I totally
off base
here?
Perhaps this is something like a Virtual Machine, except
compiled,
but we
don't have to compile it.
In addition, couldn't we use the same kind of technique for
building
an XPL
I/O library, which maps perfectly to the instruction sets
dealing
with I/O?
Maybe this is nonsense ... don't worry, just tell me, I have
no real
idea if
it would work - it won't hurt my feelings. :-)
Richard A. Hein
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:29:27
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
"except compiled, but we don't have to compile it." What does that
mean???
I hope that's a typo, Mr. Contradiction.
Plus, it's nothing like a virtual machine. You don't know anything
about
compilers, or ISA, so keep your mouth shut dumb-ass!
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 28, 2000 4:07 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: RE: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
Why do you say that Richard? Please explain.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 28, 2000 4:05 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: RE: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
Boy Richard, that's a really stupid idea ....
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...]
Sent: June 19, 2000 3:16 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: [XPL] Instruction Set Architecture in XML?
I was wondering if it really would be possible to make a schema
to
describe
an ISA in XML and use that during construction of a compiler
for XPL,
that
can map XPL code to the ISA for a specific processor? Then if
another
ISA
comes along, we can use XSLT to map the ISA to the XPL compiler
specifically
based on the new ISA's schema? Any thoughts? Am I totally off
base
here?
Perhaps this is something like a Virtual Machine, except
compiled, but
we
don't have to compile it.
In addition, couldn't we use the same kind of technique for
building
an XPL
I/O library, which maps perfectly to the instruction sets
dealing with
I/O?
Maybe this is nonsense ... don't worry, just tell me, I have no
real
idea if
it would work - it won't hurt my feelings. :-)
Richard A. Hein
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:28:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Michael, If I knew more about what each one of the licenses entailed, I would give some input. At this point all I can say is that GPL is a pretty standard license for opensource offerings. I don't know what the others entail. GPL is what Linux uses, and they have updates centralized as you mentioned. It seems to work well. That's all I have to say about it now. How about a list of pros/cons? Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lauzon [mailto:ce940@f...] Sent: June 26, 2000 11:55 AM To: xpl@e... Subject: [XPL] Licenses.... I don't think it's to early in the game to bring up the topic of what license we're going to use as what we are creating is open-source and will be freeware, but I see three choices: 1. GPL 2. LGPL 3. MPL There may be more. Though I still stick to the idea when we get this fully working, any updates to the code or tags, we have to be sent the new code, just like they do with Linux. Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:28:20
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Lucas Gonze <lucas@g...> wrote: try this link: http://www.sourcexchange.com/ProjectDetail?projectID=13 --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:28:19
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Lucas Gonze <lucas@g...> wrote: try this link: http://www.sourcexchange.com/ProjectDetail?projectID=13 --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:28:03
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Lucas Gonze <lucas@g...> wrote: Spacekits are their proprietary stuff implementing the Blocks metadata toolkit. I believe we will have to wait to see BXXP. odd - announcing an open source project ahead of release, and submitting the protocol underneath a proprietary product to the IETF prior to any public implementation. > Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > > Ooops. That should be next month, that a portal will be set up > for developers, and you can get the kits. Spacekits are > available now at http://www.invisibleworlds.net in Java and > Perl implementations. I am not sure if the Spacekits are the > same thing, or an earlier version of what the article I linked > to below was talking about. > > Richard A. Hein > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...] > Sent: June 27, 2000 8:40 PM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: RE: [XPL] BXXP - the answer to our transfer > protocol prayers?? > > Lucas, Invisible Worlds, who made BXXP are supposed > to be releasing a public toolkit this week sometime. > > Richard A. Hein > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lucas Gonze [mailto:lucas@g...] > Sent: June 27, 2000 8:26 PM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: Re: [XPL] BXXP - the answer to our > transfer protocol prayers?? > > I haven't been able to find any public > implementation at all. > Does anyone know otherwise? > > > Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > > > > The Blocks eXtensible eXchange Protocol > (BXXP) was developed by > > Mashall Rose: > > > > "BXXP is essentially a tool kit that > developers can use to > > quickly create protocols for a range of > applications including > > instant messaging, file transfer, content > syndication, network > > management and metadata exchange. Because > it uses a > > peer-to-peer architecture, BXXP is a good > foundation for > > creating protocols that govern > distributed file-sharing > > applications such as Gnutella, iMesh and > Freenet." > > > > "Application-specific protocols can be > stacked on top of the > > reusable BXXP code, and developers can > update the add-on > > protocols without changing the underlying > BXXP foundation. > > > > BXXP-enabled applications work by setting > up and maintaining a > > network connection between two users, > which can alternate > > between functioning as clients and > servers. The two users can > > respond to requests for data as well as > push data back and > > forth over a network connection. > > > > One special feature of a BXXP connection > is it can carry > > multiple simultaneous exchanges of data - > called channels - > > between users. For example, users can > chat and transfer files > > at the same time from one application > that employs a network > > connection. BXXP uses XML to frame the > information it carries, > > but the information can be in any form > including images, data > > or text. > > > > BXXP runs on top of TCP and acts as an > alternative to HTTP or a > > custom-made data exchange protocol. HTTP > was designed to handle > > the transport of hypertext documents and > is ideal for Web > > browsing. However, HTTP doesn't work well > for the transfer of > > XML data, nor does it support multiple > simultaneous exchanges > > between users. For these types of > applications, developers have > > to create their own special-purpose > protocols. Now they can use > > BXXP to speed that process. " > > > > Get more information at > > > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0626bxxp.html > (slow today), > > and follow a discussion at > www.slashdot.org, where a variety of > > people will be discussing the > ins-and-outs of BXXP. > > > > What does Simon St. Laurent think about > this, considering his > > view points expressed in earlier messages > (Simon?)? How does > > this compare to WorldOS (Lucas?)? > > > > Richard A. Hein > > <plug>who has finished up his last > contract and is now looking > > for a new job <email_ me> > 935551@i...</email_me> </plug> > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > [Image] > > > > > > > > [Image] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > To unsubscribe from this group, > send an email to: > > > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > -- > L.U.C.A.S.: Lifeform Used for Calculation > and Accurate Sabotage > To unsubscribe from this group, send an > email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... -- L.U.C.A.S.: Lifeform Used for Calculation and Accurate Sabotage --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:27:46
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Ooops. That should be next month, that a portal will be set up for developers, and you can get the kits. Spacekits are available now at http://www.invisibleworlds.net in Java and Perl implementations. I am not sure if the Spacekits are the same thing, or an earlier version of what the article I linked to below was talking about. Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Richard Anthony Hein [mailto:935551@i...] Sent: June 27, 2000 8:40 PM To: xpl@e... Subject: RE: [XPL] BXXP - the answer to our transfer protocol prayers?? Lucas, Invisible Worlds, who made BXXP are supposed to be releasing a public toolkit this week sometime. Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Lucas Gonze [mailto:lucas@g...] Sent: June 27, 2000 8:26 PM To: xpl@e... Subject: Re: [XPL] BXXP - the answer to our transfer protocol prayers?? I haven't been able to find any public implementation at all. Does anyone know otherwise? > Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > > The Blocks eXtensible eXchange Protocol (BXXP) was developed by > Mashall Rose: > > "BXXP is essentially a tool kit that developers can use to > quickly create protocols for a range of applications including > instant messaging, file transfer, content syndication, network > management and metadata exchange. Because it uses a > peer-to-peer architecture, BXXP is a good foundation for > creating protocols that govern distributed file-sharing > applications such as Gnutella, iMesh and Freenet." > > "Application-specific protocols can be stacked on top of the > reusable BXXP code, and developers can update the add-on > protocols without changing the underlying BXXP foundation. > > BXXP-enabled applications work by setting up and maintaining a > network connection between two users, which can alternate > between functioning as clients and servers. The two users can > respond to requests for data as well as push data back and > forth over a network connection. > > One special feature of a BXXP connection is it can carry > multiple simultaneous exchanges of data - called channels - > between users. For example, users can chat and transfer files > at the same time from one application that employs a network > connection. BXXP uses XML to frame the information it carries, > but the information can be in any form including images, data > or text. > > BXXP runs on top of TCP and acts as an alternative to HTTP or a > custom-made data exchange protocol. HTTP was designed to handle > the transport of hypertext documents and is ideal for Web > browsing. However, HTTP doesn't work well for the transfer of > XML data, nor does it support multiple simultaneous exchanges > between users. For these types of applications, developers have > to create their own special-purpose protocols. Now they can use > BXXP to speed that process. " > > Get more information at > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0626bxxp.html (slow today), > and follow a discussion at www.slashdot.org, where a variety of > people will be discussing the ins-and-outs of BXXP. > > What does Simon St. Laurent think about this, considering his > view points expressed in earlier messages (Simon?)? How does > this compare to WorldOS (Lucas?)? > > Richard A. Hein > <plug>who has finished up his last contract and is now looking > for a new job <email_ me> 935551@i...</email_me> </plug> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > [Image] > > > > [Image] > --------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... -- L.U.C.A.S.: Lifeform Used for Calculation and Accurate Sabotage To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:27:31
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Lucas, Invisible Worlds, who made BXXP are supposed to be releasing a public toolkit this week sometime. Richard A. Hein -----Original Message----- From: Lucas Gonze [mailto:lucas@g...] Sent: June 27, 2000 8:26 PM To: xpl@e... Subject: Re: [XPL] BXXP - the answer to our transfer protocol prayers?? I haven't been able to find any public implementation at all. Does anyone know otherwise? > Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > > The Blocks eXtensible eXchange Protocol (BXXP) was developed by > Mashall Rose: > > "BXXP is essentially a tool kit that developers can use to > quickly create protocols for a range of applications including > instant messaging, file transfer, content syndication, network > management and metadata exchange. Because it uses a > peer-to-peer architecture, BXXP is a good foundation for > creating protocols that govern distributed file-sharing > applications such as Gnutella, iMesh and Freenet." > > "Application-specific protocols can be stacked on top of the > reusable BXXP code, and developers can update the add-on > protocols without changing the underlying BXXP foundation. > > BXXP-enabled applications work by setting up and maintaining a > network connection between two users, which can alternate > between functioning as clients and servers. The two users can > respond to requests for data as well as push data back and > forth over a network connection. > > One special feature of a BXXP connection is it can carry > multiple simultaneous exchanges of data - called channels - > between users. For example, users can chat and transfer files > at the same time from one application that employs a network > connection. BXXP uses XML to frame the information it carries, > but the information can be in any form including images, data > or text. > > BXXP runs on top of TCP and acts as an alternative to HTTP or a > custom-made data exchange protocol. HTTP was designed to handle > the transport of hypertext documents and is ideal for Web > browsing. However, HTTP doesn't work well for the transfer of > XML data, nor does it support multiple simultaneous exchanges > between users. For these types of applications, developers have > to create their own special-purpose protocols. Now they can use > BXXP to speed that process. " > > Get more information at > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0626bxxp.html (slow today), > and follow a discussion at www.slashdot.org, where a variety of > people will be discussing the ins-and-outs of BXXP. > > What does Simon St. Laurent think about this, considering his > view points expressed in earlier messages (Simon?)? How does > this compare to WorldOS (Lucas?)? > > Richard A. Hein > <plug>who has finished up his last contract and is now looking > for a new job <email_ me> 935551@i...</email_me> </plug> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > [Image] > > > > [Image] > --------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... -- L.U.C.A.S.: Lifeform Used for Calculation and Accurate Sabotage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
1 message has been excluded from this view by a project administrator.
