exprla-devel Mailing List for XPL: eXtensible Programming Language (Page 2)
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From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:42:12
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: :-) I suppose so! So, I guess people like the xplatypus idea. All you need is a dictionary eh? I made up a whole list of xpl* combos. Mike's got a copy. If VBXML has hosting that allows virtual hosting, then we can use that site, and a domain name. Mark? We have to register this quick, or I am afraid it'll be gone in a few hours. Richard -----Original Message----- From: cagle@o... [mailto:cagle@o...] Sent: July 6, 2000 12:46 PM To: xpl@e... Subject: Re: [XPL] XPL Mascot.... Of course, you could always call it Anna (from Ornithorynchous Anatinas, the Greek name for the platypus). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lauzon" <ce940@f...> To: <xpl@e...> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 9:02 AM Subject: [XPL] XPL Mascot.... > Richard sent me an email with ideas for a domain name, when we > eventually grow to big for the VBXML site. He also mentioned a > mascot. And to this, I think is a good idea. Because...Linux, has a > penguin; Windows has a window; Apple, has an apple; so we should have > a platypus (and here is what RAH wrote): > > xplatypus - it makes a great site mascot - the platypus - plus it > denotes XPL's quality of using heterogenous data and supporting > various technologies! :-) > > The Linux world named their mascot Tux (I think), so we will name our > mascot: Xplatypus. > > Michael > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > Add the interactive dimension to your web pages. > Use the MozquitoTM Factory with your editor and form the web today! > Form the Web today - visit: > http://click.egroups.com/1/5771/2/_/809694/_/962899390/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:41:34
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Simon was at XMLDevCon in New York - he wrote an article about some of the new stuff unveiled there for XML.com. Plus he's often debating the namespace issue at xml-dev mailing list. And not just reading - also writing books. Richard -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lauzon [mailto:ce940@f...] Sent: July 6, 2000 11:13 AM To: xpl@e... Subject: [XPL] Wonder What...? I wonder what happened to Simon St. Laurant, we haven't heard anything from him in a while. He's still subscribed to the list, so maybe he's doing a little reading, of course there is a lot to read through on here. :) Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:41:04
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Hmm, I have to think about this - it's going to take a while.
Hopefully
Kurt will jump in here, he's got the XSL/XSLT goods.
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On
Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 6, 2000 10:02 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue #2 - XPL will provide mechanisms to link
XSL
documents to XML documents.
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
Good questions. This was a too-general statement I made. The XSL
specification states:
"XSL is a language for expressing stylesheets. Given a class of
arbitrarily structured XML [W3C XML] documents or data files,
designers use
an XSL stylesheet to express their intentions about how that
structured
content should be presented; that is, how the source content should be
styled, laid out, and paginated onto some presentation medium, such
as a
window in a Web browser or a hand-held device, or a set of physical
pages in
a catalog, report, pamphlet, or book."
I was thinking about this kind of output, so I was being far too
general
in stating the requirement. However, now that I've thought about it
more,
perhaps XPL shouldn't touch on formatting the XML using stylesheets
at all.
There probably isn't any point, except to say that XSL stylesheets
can be
called and linked to XML documents via XPL, in the same sense that
ASP, VB
or any other language link up XSL and XML documents now. Other than
that,
XSL shouldn't effect our requirements. If so, perhaps the requirement
should read:
a.. XPL will provide mechanisms to link XSL documents to XML
documents.
In preparation for this, I've reviewed the XSL specification ,
and the
answer to this is quite clear:
XPL will include both the syntax and the semantics of XSL
documents
Now recall that I'm recommending that all XSLT documents must be
valid XPL
documents.
That's not quite as heavy a commitment as it might seem - XSLT
documents
are in fact
XML with namespaces and with XPath patterns included as attributes
of
template elements.
By requiring XPL to accept XSLT documents as citizens in good
standing,
able to operate
on XML documents in conjuction with any new XPL processing we make
up, we
are not
constraining XPL itself, as far as I can see.
If we broaden the requirement, from XSLT to XSL, we commit
ourselves to
requiring XPL
to support (1) namespaces, (2) XSL-FO formatting objects, whatever
these
turn out to be.
I don't think we can go any other way, without losing relevance to
the XML
standards and
programming communities altogether.
This does not prevent us from defining subsets - "tiny XPL"s - as
namespaces which name
a smaller DTD with limited element sets.
Nor does it exclude the possibilities that I think are worthwhile -
the
explicit foundation in
Groves, the regexps and grammars - nor any other extensions, as
long as
they are formatted
as XML-with-namespaces.
It does mean that any semantics we support must be compatible with
the
semantics of
XSLT transformations and formatting objects. But that will not
restrict
us, I'm almost
certain, if our semantics begins with Groves.
In sum, all of XSL must "just work" together with XPL.
XLST is already very powerful. It would certainly be possible to
specify a
very classy XPL
indeed, just by using the provided extension elements. I am not
absolutely
sure that those
will support the operations which we might want to bring in from
other
programming languages,
though. It is possible that we will choose to derive XPath and
XLST from
something deeper,
i.e. Groves.
Comments on this? So a new question arises from your questions
Jonathan:
what shall we use to drive the range of output mechanisms in current
use?
Your answer seems to be SOAP. There is also XML-RPC. Or will XPL
have it's
own version owing to the fact that grove property sets might be
something to
consider in this regard? There should probably be a new thread for
this,
like "output mechanisms". But first let's state what the output
mechanisms
must accomplish. Your turn!Richard Anthony Hein
I've had a rethink here. I suspect you were right the first time.
XSL may
be all we need for
an output mechanism - provided we can stream it.
The reasoning is as follows. There appear to be only two basic
mechanisms
for binding
or translating between objects of different parentage.
a.. Message passing as text, usually via sockets.
b.. Procedure calls, remote or otherwise.
There are three major protocols extant, for publishing interfaces:
COM,
CORBA and Java
Beans. They do the same job, it's just that there are slight
differences
in the protocol,
the dialog, the handshaking, whatever we call it. They are all
based on
procedure calls.
You can ask any object, of any of these families, to provide you
with its
interface.
This gives you the means to call the methods of the object in
question.
The alternative is message passing via text streams. For instance,
HTML
has a built-in
channel to any local Javascript interpreter which might be resident
in a
browser.
To exploit this mechanism, you only need to be able (1) to open a
channel,
(2) to
format the message text, and (3) to define a new tag in your
system, to
indicate that
these are messages for the target system in question. Plus, the
target
system needs
a procedure to call, to open the channel.
This doesn't seem hard to arrange. As a reality check, I have in
mind
Mozilla's XUL,
which is an XML document type with a builti-in channel to
Javascript. It
has an
impressively large manual, yes, but most of it seems to be
concerned with
the
elements which correspond to the various Javascript operations and
objects
it
binds to.
It's the other ones, the COM/CORBA/JBeans protocols, which present
the
headache.
To talk to them, you need to be able to "marshal" the parameters
for every
method
call, where the target object can get them when you make the call.
I don't
know
the ins and outs of this at all well. I do know that it was hailed
as
significant
progress last year, when some bright folks managed to get COM and
CORBA
even talking to each other without restriction.
What I reckon, is that we should leave off specifying output
processing,
at XSL.
This means that we are responsible for formatting the final output
as some
XML
document type. E.g. the CORBA namespace or DTD. It will be up to the
programmers
of the target interface to provide a "hook", a little proxy
object, which
can open
a channel for XPL to deliver the final XML output to, as text. A
TCP/IP
service
port might do the trick. Once the channel is open, the hook object
can
make and
receive whatever procedure calls it wants, to the target object.
The hook
can
either swallow the XML output in one gulp, or stream it in.
This is handwavy, but it adds up to a policy we can stand by:
XPL input and output will be in text form.
Text forms output by XPL will be formatted via XSL.
Just as you said.
What about that implication that we're supporting multiple text
streams -
one for
COM hooks, one for Javascript, etc etc? That's an exception to the
rule,
but we
can get around it in practice - if we declare that there is a single
standard
text-stream-broker object, to which all external interpreters and
hooks
can
couple. Once again, as a proof of concept, we could implement it as
a
TCP/IP
service. It could use the same code as http, which is usually an
all-at-one-gulp
thing, but does support continuing channels.
Comments, please, from those wiser than I?
Jonathan
LOOK at the time! Oh, my fan, oh my gloves, the Duchess, the
Duchess,
she'll have my head for sure!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:40:39
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., cagle@o... wrote: Of course, you could always call it Anna (from Ornithorynchous Anatinas, the Greek name for the platypus). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lauzon" <ce940@f...> To: <xpl@e...> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 9:02 AM Subject: [XPL] XPL Mascot.... > Richard sent me an email with ideas for a domain name, when we > eventually grow to big for the VBXML site. He also mentioned a > mascot. And to this, I think is a good idea. Because...Linux, has a > penguin; Windows has a window; Apple, has an apple; so we should have > a platypus (and here is what RAH wrote): > > xplatypus - it makes a great site mascot - the platypus - plus it > denotes XPL's quality of using heterogenous data and supporting > various technologies! :-) > > The Linux world named their mascot Tux (I think), so we will name our > mascot: Xplatypus. > > Michael > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Add the interactive dimension to your web pages. > Use the MozquitoTM Factory with your editor and form the web today! > Form the Web today - visit: > http://click.egroups.com/1/5771/2/_/809694/_/962899390/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > > > --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:39:17
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Michael Lauzon" <ce940@f...> wrote: I wonder what happened to Simon St. Laurant, we haven't heard anything from him in a while. He's still subscribed to the list, so maybe he's doing a little reading, of course there is a lot to read through on here. :) Michael --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:38:53
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Michael Lauzon" <ce940@f...> wrote: I haven't had a chance to read through the GPL or GPL modified licenses, I wish someone would write a book with the GPL license. And, I do agree with JB, that if our source code does end up in software that companies are selling and making a profit, without giving the group royalties, we should sue. :) Michael --- In xpl@e..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: > Michael Lauzon wrote: > > > Here is a link to licenses of the GNU website: > > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html > > I've just been over to W3C's Legal Page , and their terms and conditions > > are compatible with the GPL. Which counts for a lot, since we'll be taking > > authority from some of their specifications. > > Essentially the GPL obliges us to make available any source we write > > which is implemented in our documents and which we mean to be used freely; > > also to include a statement that the sources is covered by the GPL, which > > means we require copiers to make their modified source available as well. > > And we ought to include a copy of the GPL itself as a header. > > And make the usual disclaimer as to liabilities. > > Finally, we are obliged not to include any non-free sources as an > > integral part of out own. > > This all sounds acceptable to me. What we could do, if parts of our > > source showed up in privately-owned code, is not altogether clear. > > Ultimately, we could and should sue. In such a case, we'd have just > > about the whole open-source world on our side. > > Any other thoughts? > > -- > > Jonathan Burns; saski@w... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:38:21
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Richard Anthony Hein wrote: > I have VS 6.0 pro. among other tools, and can build ASP pages (not my > best - but I have it figured out now). If you make up an HTML page, > that's great, and we can use that HTML in the ASP. It wouldn't be > wasted. .asp is just an .htm page with an .asp extension. The > extension .asp just lets the web server (PWS, IIS etc ...) know to > process the page differently, and sends out raw html after processing > the scripts in the .asp page. So, if you want you can pass this on to > me, and I'll do it, using your html in the ASP page. Excellent. > If this is something you guys really want to work on, that's cool. > But I have to say, we have to use XML/XSL, or XHTML on this. To start > with, anything you want to put on the site - mark it up as XML and > XSL, ok? I am not saying that it cannot be html, and you have to > change something you've done - just for the future, please do it in > XML if you can. You're on. I have an XHTML checker, and I'll use it. Thanks. Jonathan --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:37:58
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Michael Lauzon" <ce940@f...> wrote: Jonathan, Actually, I have the 'FTP keys' as you say to the XPL site on VBXML. But not having my own computer and 'Net connection does hamper things quite a bit. And, now that I am not working anymore, I need a career so I can get a computer. :( Yes, RAH has a good idea about the XML/XSL page, but let's keep it simple for now, and use normal HTML 4.0 until XHTML 1.0/1.1 is fully adopted by browser makers and HTML editors. Michael --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > I have VS 6.0 pro. among other tools, and can build ASP pages (not my best - > but I have it figured out now). If you make up an HTML page, that's great, > and we can use that HTML in the ASP. It wouldn't be wasted. .asp is just > an .htm page with an .asp extension. The extension .asp just lets the web > server (PWS, IIS etc ...) know to process the page differently, and sends > out raw html after processing the scripts in the .asp page. So, if you want > you can pass this on to me, and I'll do it, using your html in the ASP page. > > If this is something you guys really want to work on, that's cool. But I > have to say, we have to use XML/XSL, or XHTML on this. To start with, > anything you want to put on the site - mark it up as XML and XSL, ok? I am > not saying that it cannot be html, and you have to change something you've > done - just for the future, please do it in XML if you can. > > Richard A. Hein > > -----Original Message----- > From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Burns > Sent: July 6, 2000 10:39 AM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: Re: [XPL] VBXML > > > Michael Lauzon wrote: > The only problem with the VBXML website (no offence Mark), but not > knowing how to do ASP, and having to have all the pages end in asp > is not something I could do. I only know HTML, so all the pages > would > have to end in .htm/.html. Also, I still don't have access to a > computer that I could start designing a basic website for our group. > If anyone has HTML editing software, can you please do this? > > Good point, Michael. > But Mark, is it the case that we need ASP for our page? I'd expect HTML > to do fine. > > A couple of us have content building up - Michael's been finding links, > Richard has > been collating our correspondence, and I have my annotation of Paul > Prescod's > "Addressing the Enterprise", and more to come. > > As well, I have a rough and ready site layout, which will do for starters, > and I'm > much better prepared for Web construction than I was a few weeks ago. > > If people want to mail me content or URLs, I can assemble them into > reasonable > shape, link them together with relative URLs, and tar them up to send to > Mark - > whom I presume has the FTP keys to the place. > > Jonathan > > > > -- > > Jonathan Burns; saski@w... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > -- > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > -- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:37:25
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Michael Lauzon wrote: > Here is a link to licenses of the GNU website: > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html I've just been over to W3C's Legal Page , and their terms and conditions are compatible with the GPL. Which counts for a lot, since we'll be taking authority from some of their specifications. Essentially the GPL obliges us to make available any source we write which is implemented in our documents and which we mean to be used freely; also to include a statement that the sources is covered by the GPL, which means we require copiers to make their modified source available as well. And we ought to include a copy of the GPL itself as a header. And make the usual disclaimer as to liabilities. Finally, we are obliged not to include any non-free sources as an integral part of out own. This all sounds acceptable to me. What we could do, if parts of our source showed up in privately-owned code, is not altogether clear. Ultimately, we could and should sue. In such a case, we'd have just about the whole open-source world on our side. Any other thoughts? -- Jonathan Burns; saski@w... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:36:58
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
I have VS 6.0 pro. among other tools, and can build ASP pages (not my
best -
but I have it figured out now). If you make up an HTML page, that's
great,
and we can use that HTML in the ASP. It wouldn't be wasted. .asp is
just
an .htm page with an .asp extension. The extension .asp just lets
the web
server (PWS, IIS etc ...) know to process the page differently, and
sends
out raw html after processing the scripts in the .asp page. So, if
you want
you can pass this on to me, and I'll do it, using your html in the
ASP page.
If this is something you guys really want to work on, that's cool.
But I
have to say, we have to use XML/XSL, or XHTML on this. To start with,
anything you want to put on the site - mark it up as XML and XSL,
ok? I am
not saying that it cannot be html, and you have to change something
you've
done - just for the future, please do it in XML if you can.
Richard A. Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 6, 2000 10:39 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] VBXML
Michael Lauzon wrote:
The only problem with the VBXML website (no offence Mark), but not
knowing how to do ASP, and having to have all the pages end in asp
is not something I could do. I only know HTML, so all the pages
would
have to end in .htm/.html. Also, I still don't have access to a
computer that I could start designing a basic website for our
group.
If anyone has HTML editing software, can you please do this?
Good point, Michael.
But Mark, is it the case that we need ASP for our page? I'd expect
HTML
to do fine.
A couple of us have content building up - Michael's been finding
links,
Richard has
been collating our correspondence, and I have my annotation of Paul
Prescod's
"Addressing the Enterprise", and more to come.
As well, I have a rough and ready site layout, which will do for
starters,
and I'm
much better prepared for Web construction than I was a few weeks
ago.
If people want to mail me content or URLs, I can assemble them into
reasonable
shape, link them together with relative URLs, and tar them up to
send to
Mark -
whom I presume has the FTP keys to the place.
Jonathan
--
Jonathan Burns; saski@w...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:34:06
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote: Michael Lauzon wrote: > The only problem with the VBXML website (no offence Mark), but not > knowing how to do ASP, and having to have all the pages end in .asp > is not something I could do. I only know HTML, so all the pages > would > have to end in .htm/.html. Also, I still don't have access to a > computer that I could start designing a basic website for our group. > If anyone has HTML editing software, can you please do this? > Good point, Michael. But Mark, is it the case that we need ASP for our page? I'd expect HTML to do fine. A couple of us have content building up - Michael's been finding links, Richard has been collating our correspondence, and I have my annotation of Paul Prescod's "Addressing the Enterprise", and more to come. As well, I have a rough and ready site layout, which will do for starters, and I'm much better prepared for Web construction than I was a few weeks ago. If people want to mail me content or URLs, I can assemble them into reasonable shape, link them together with relative URLs, and tar them up to send to Mark - whom I presume has the FTP keys to the place. Jonathan -- Jonathan Burns; saski@w... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:33:11
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Michael Lauzon <ce940@f...> wrote: Here is a link to licenses of the GNU website: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html Michael http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/9180/ 'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may work.' --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:32:44
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Michael Lauzon <ce940@f...> wrote: The only problem with the VBXML website (no offence Mark), but not knowing how to do ASP, and having to have all the pages end in .asp is not something I could do. I only know HTML, so all the pages would have to end in .htm/.html. Also, I still don't have access to a computer that I could start designing a basic website for our group. If anyone has HTML editing software, can you please do this? Michael http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/9180/ 'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may work.' --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 15:31:55
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote:
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
>
>
> Good questions. This was a too-general statement I made. The XSL
> specification states:
>
> "XSL is a language for expressing stylesheets. Given a class
> of arbitrarily structured XML [W3C XML] documents or data
> files, designers use an XSL stylesheet to express their
> intentions about how that structured content should be
> presented; that is, how the source content should be styled,
> laid out, and paginated onto some presentation medium, such
> as a window in a Web browser or a hand-held device, or a set
> of physical pages in a catalog, report, pamphlet, or book."
>
> I was thinking about this kind of output, so I was being far too
> general in stating the requirement. However, now that I've thought
> about it more, perhaps XPL shouldn't touch on formatting the XML
using
> stylesheets at all. There probably isn't any point, except to say
> that XSL stylesheets can be called and linked to XML documents via
> XPL, in the same sense that ASP, VB or any other language link up
XSL
> and XML documents now. Other than that, XSL shouldn't effect our
> requirements. If so, perhaps the requirement should read:
>
> * XPL will provide mechanisms to link XSL documents to XML
> documents.
>
In preparation for this, I've reviewed the XSL specification , and
the
answer to this is quite clear:
XPL will include both the syntax and the semantics of XSL
documents
Now recall that I'm recommending that all XSLT documents must be valid
XPL documents.
That's not quite as heavy a commitment as it might seem - XSLT
documents
are in fact
XML with namespaces and with XPath patterns included as attributes of
template elements.
By requiring XPL to accept XSLT documents as citizens in good
standing,
able to operate
on XML documents in conjuction with any new XPL processing we make up,
we are not
constraining XPL itself, as far as I can see.
If we broaden the requirement, from XSLT to XSL, we commit ourselves
to
requiring XPL
to support (1) namespaces, (2) XSL-FO formatting objects, whatever
these
turn out to be.
I don't think we can go any other way, without losing relevance to the
XML standards and
programming communities altogether.
This does not prevent us from defining subsets - "tiny XPL"s - as
namespaces which name
a smaller DTD with limited element sets.
Nor does it exclude the possibilities that I think are worthwhile -
the
explicit foundation in
Groves, the regexps and grammars - nor any other extensions, as long
as
they are formatted
as XML-with-namespaces.
It does mean that any semantics we support must be compatible with the
semantics of
XSLT transformations and formatting objects. But that will not
restrict
us, I'm almost
certain, if our semantics begins with Groves.
In sum, all of XSL must "just work" together with XPL.
XLST is already very powerful. It would certainly be possible to
specify
a very classy XPL
indeed, just by using the provided extension elements. I am not
absolutely sure that those
will support the operations which we might want to bring in from other
programming languages,
though. It is possible that we will choose to derive XPath and XLST
from something deeper,
i.e. Groves.
> Comments on this? So a new question arises from your questions
> Jonathan: what shall we use to drive the range of output mechanisms
> in current use? Your answer seems to be SOAP. There is also
> XML-RPC. Or will XPL have it's own version owing to the fact that
> grove property sets might be something to consider in this regard?
> There should probably be a new thread for this, like "output
> mechanisms". But first let's state what the output mechanisms must
> accomplish. Your turn!Richard Anthony Hein
I've had a rethink here. I suspect you were right the first time. XSL
may be all we need for
an output mechanism - provided we can stream it.
The reasoning is as follows. There appear to be only two basic
mechanisms for binding
or translating between objects of different parentage.
* Message passing as text, usually via sockets.
* Procedure calls, remote or otherwise.
There are three major protocols extant, for publishing interfaces:
COM,
CORBA and Java
Beans. They do the same job, it's just that there are slight
differences
in the protocol,
the dialog, the handshaking, whatever we call it. They are all based
on
procedure calls.
You can ask any object, of any of these families, to provide you with
its interface.
This gives you the means to call the methods of the object in
question.
The alternative is message passing via text streams. For instance,
HTML
has a built-in
channel to any local Javascript interpreter which might be resident
in a
browser.
To exploit this mechanism, you only need to be able (1) to open a
channel, (2) to
format the message text, and (3) to define a new tag in your system,
to
indicate that
these are messages for the target system in question. Plus, the target
system needs
a procedure to call, to open the channel.
This doesn't seem hard to arrange. As a reality check, I have in mind
Mozilla's XUL,
which is an XML document type with a builti-in channel to Javascript.
It
has an
impressively large manual, yes, but most of it seems to be concerned
with the
elements which correspond to the various Javascript operations and
objects it
binds to.
It's the other ones, the COM/CORBA/JBeans protocols, which present the
headache.
To talk to them, you need to be able to "marshal" the parameters for
every method
call, where the target object can get them when you make the call. I
don't know
the ins and outs of this at all well. I do know that it was hailed as
significant
progress last year, when some bright folks managed to get COM and
CORBA
even talking to each other without restriction.
What I reckon, is that we should leave off specifying output
processing,
at XSL.
This means that we are responsible for formatting the final output as
some XML
document type. E.g. the CORBA namespace or DTD. It will be up to the
programmers
of the target interface to provide a "hook", a little proxy object,
which can open
a channel for XPL to deliver the final XML output to, as text. A
TCP/IP
service
port might do the trick. Once the channel is open, the hook object can
make and
receive whatever procedure calls it wants, to the target object. The
hook can
either swallow the XML output in one gulp, or stream it in.
This is handwavy, but it adds up to a policy we can stand by:
XPL input and output will be in text form.
Text forms output by XPL will be formatted via XSL.
Just as you said.
What about that implication that we're supporting multiple text
streams
- one for
COM hooks, one for Javascript, etc etc? That's an exception to the
rule,
but we
can get around it in practice - if we declare that there is a single
standard
text-stream-broker object, to which all external interpreters and
hooks
can
couple. Once again, as a proof of concept, we could implement it as a
TCP/IP
service. It could use the same code as http, which is usually an
all-at-one-gulp
thing, but does support continuing channels.
Comments, please, from those wiser than I?
Jonathan
LOOK at the time! Oh, my fan, oh my gloves, the Duchess, the Duchess,
she'll have my head for sure!
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-02-01 03:38:46
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Lucas Gonze <lucas@g...> wrote: > > 1. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or > > synchronous format, and support multiple streams of > > heterogeneous data, including non-XML media types. ... > From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means: > multiple processes are going on; > their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct > order; to ensure this, processes are > constrained to open for input or output only on logical > conditions, which are dependent on a > global counter or timestamping system. Async in this context means that messages can arrive at any time from any party. This is in contrast to http, where messages come in request/response pairs and must be initiated by one party (a browser/client) and never the other (a http daemon). I would leave streaming to the transport stage - ignore the issue unless there is a specific reason why you can't. All it requires is some type of chunked encoding. the only language design issue I can think of is that asynchronous function calls mean function calls that can have 0 or n responses, instead of 1 and always 1 response. this is a feature I have never seen in a language. --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:43:54
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On
Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will format output using XSL.
I don't know about this. Is XSL diverse enough to drive the range of
output mechanisms
in current use? Can it efficiently make method calls to COM
objects? Talk
to Java Beans?
Generate Perl, or Postscript?
I mean, it was beginning to sound to me that SOAP would make the
right
kind of output
stage for most purposes.
[RAH]
Good questions. This was a too-general statement I made. The XSL
specification states:
"XSL is a language for expressing stylesheets. Given a class of
arbitrarily structured XML [W3C XML] documents or data files,
designers use
an XSL stylesheet to express their intentions about how that
structured
content should be presented; that is, how the source content should be
styled, laid out, and paginated onto some presentation medium, such
as a
window in a Web browser or a hand-held device, or a set of physical
pages in
a catalog, report, pamphlet, or book."
I was thinking about this kind of output, so I was being far too
general in
stating the requirement. However, now that I've thought about it
more,
perhaps XPL shouldn't touch on formatting the XML using stylesheets
at all.
There probably isn't any point, except to say that XSL stylesheets
can be
called and linked to XML documents via XPL, in the same sense that
ASP, VB
or any other language link up XSL and XML documents now. Other than
that,
XSL shouldn't effect our requirements. If so, perhaps the requirement
should read:
a.. XPL will provide mechanisms to link XSL documents to XML
documents.
Comments on this?
So a new question arises from your questions Jonathan: what shall we
use to
drive the range of output mechanisms in current use? Your answer
seems to
be SOAP. There is also XML-RPC. Or will XPL have it's own version
owing to
the fact that grove property sets might be something to consider in
this
regard? There should probably be a new thread for this, like "output
mechanisms". But first let's state what the output mechanisms must
accomplish. Your turn!
Richard Anthony Hein
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:43:42
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Ok!
(my shortest message ever :-)
Richard Anthony Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@o...]
Sent: July 5, 2000 3:27 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
The asynchronous streaming is important (and indeed vital, since
systems
will crawl otherwise), but not the non-sequential data handling.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
Okay, then that clears that up for me. I think, if I can find
some
time, I will take a look at that TCP/IP book have laying around
somewhere,
but never read, so I can talk somewhat intelligently about it!
So you mean to say that whole design goal point ("XML will
stream ...")
is not necessary, or just what I asked about handling non-sequential
data?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:43:12
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Okay, then that clears that up for me. I think, if I can find some
time, I
will take a look at that TCP/IP book have laying around somewhere,
but never
read, so I can talk somewhat intelligently about it!
So you mean to say that whole design goal point ("XML will
stream ...") is
not necessary, or just what I asked about handling non-sequential
data?
Thanks again,
Richard Anthony Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@o...]
Sent: July 5, 2000 2:06 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
This shouldn't be an issue. In general, the resposibility of the
TCP/IP
protocol is to assure that messages are reassembled in the correct
order
after coming through in non-cardinal order, or to request a
retransmit if
the message did not arrive completely. Unless you're writing a lot of
socket
packet switching code, you should generally not need to worry about
whether
the data arrives in the correct order; that's what TCP/IP is for.
Note that
both HTTP and BXXP are transport protocols, not transport control
protocols -- they sit on top of TCP/IP and leverages the services that
TCP/IP provides.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
Thanks Kurt, for clearing this up; I appreciate it! I clearly
was
making an error in terms of what sync and async really mean. So now
that
that issue is clearer in my mind, the next question is: what is the
terminology and process of accessing data non-sequentially called,
and would
this be handled by the transfer protocol itself, or be handled by XPL
processes? Or can it even work the way I was thinking in the first
place?
In any case, the revised requirement/design goal should read:
a.. XPL will stream 0 or more streams of heterogeneous data,
including
XML and/or non-XML media types.
(Please feel free to rephrase this to sound better and be more
concise -
I don't like using "stream ... streams" in the same sentence
fragment.)
We will keep this open for discussion and vote using the Poll
feature of
egroups, if and when necessary. Once consensus is reached concerning
this
and other requirement/design goal issues, focus on implementation
will fall
into the hands of the most knowledgeable in this area.
Richard Anthony Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@o...]
Sent: July 5, 2000 1:26 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re:
a
domain name for XPL)
Richard,
Typically, asynchronous is not the same as non-sequential. A
synchronous stream is one in which the processing thread effectively
locks
any other threads until the stream has completely loaded, while an
asynchronous stream is one in which the processing thread relinquishes
control to other threads and works in the background. The upshot of
this is
that a synchronous stream can be loaded through a single call, but it
means
that NOTHING else happens until the stream completely loads:
myDoc.async=false
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
The code in the above case will work automatically, but there
will be
a (potentially lengthy) delay until the file loads before the write
statement executes. On the other hand:
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
will likely generate an error (or at the very least display
nothing)
since the document may not have finished loading before the write
call is
made. An asynchronous stream usually relies on some kind of even
binding
mechanism. For example:
function outputDoc()
if readyState="complete" then
write myDoc.xml
end if
end function
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
myDoc.onreadyStateChange=outputDoc
(this is pseudo code here, but the idea holds) will call the
function
outputDoc any time the ready state of the XML document changes, and
will
output the contents when the document has completely loaded.
Asynchronous
programming is more complicated to write, but it makes for more
responsive
code.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
I made a new thread for this topic, and encourage people to
make new
threads for specific issues so we can have some order when discussing
them,
as they respond to individual points. Here I will discuss and open
for Q&A
the issue of XPL streaming data.
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m...
[mailto:me@m...]On Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or
synchronous format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous
data,
including non-XML media types.
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure
what
"synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means:
multiple
processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct
order;
to ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical
conditions, which are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
[RAH]
I will try to explain what I had in mind. As I understand
it, data
can be input synchronously or asynchronously. Synchronous would be
according to your definition, and async means that streams of data can
arrive out-of-order and processed independently where possible. So
for
example, if you have streaming video the frames themselves may not
arrive in
order, and they may even be decoded out of order. The only point in
which
they are assembled occurs after processing of the data, then it's
sent to
the player for output. In a peer-to-peer network, this should mean
it's
possible to get frame 1 from one location and frame 2 from another,
out of
sequence, choosing where to download from based on transfer speed,
decode
each one of them when they arrive, independently, and then assemble
them.
Perhaps this isn't an XPL issue per se, but a transfer protocol issue.
In a synchronous method, the frames must be downloaded in
order
(correct me if I am wrong). So I would have to wait for frame 1 to be
finished downloading before I can retrieve frame 2, decode frame 1
first,
then 2, and finally assemble them. Each step could really be either
async
or sync, depending on the application and data. XPL should have the
ability
to stream data in either fashion, I think. For example, I can set
async
download and decoding for the first 30 frames that make up 1 second of
video, but get the sets of 30 frames in order (sync.). So each
second is
downloaded, decoded and sent to the player in order, but the frames
that
make up the second are downloaded in arbitrary order.
I don't really know if this is simply a protocol issue, but I
am
pretty sure that we have to make XPL to be able to recognize the
difference,
to be able to tell processes what to do with the data, and a way
to "mark"
parts of a data stream in a way that makes it easy to know where each
piece
belongs. However, I don't know much about it, so I differ to the
better
judgement of my peers, especially Lucas on this one, since he has been
working on protocol issues at a low level. I think this is his
place, not
mine, to say and correct.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
[RAH]
Yes, let the protocol people focus on this; I think I'll
step away
on this one, and let them work on it.
More to come on the other topics - after lunch!
Richard Anthony Hein
(I got a new job today! Actually, it's not great, but I need
a
temporary job to fill in the gaps. It's not even programming, but at
least
it'll pay the bills, and I get to go out to all kinds of summer
events.
Plus it's for the Ontario Provincial Police, so I am hoping I can
slip in
there with some XML apps for collecting and processing data in the
field
using PDAs - they have TONS of paperwork. :-)
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:42:56
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Kurt Cagle" <cagle@o...> wrote:
This shouldn't be an issue. In general, the resposibility of the
TCP/IP protocol is to assure that messages are reassembled in the
correct order after coming through in non-cardinal order, or to
request a retransmit if the message did not arrive completely. Unless
you're writing a lot of socket packet switching code, you should
generally not need to worry about whether the data arrives in the
correct order; that's what TCP/IP is for. Note that both HTTP and
BXXP are transport protocols, not transport control protocols -- they
sit on top of TCP/IP and leverages the services that TCP/IP provides.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain name for XPL)
Thanks Kurt, for clearing this up; I appreciate it! I clearly was
making an error in terms of what sync and async really mean. So now
that that issue is clearer in my mind, the next question is: what is
the terminology and process of accessing data non-sequentially
called, and would this be handled by the transfer protocol itself, or
be handled by XPL processes? Or can it even work the way I was
thinking in the first place?
In any case, the revised requirement/design goal should read:
a.. XPL will stream 0 or more streams of heterogeneous data,
including XML and/or non-XML media types.
(Please feel free to rephrase this to sound better and be more
concise - I don't like using "stream ... streams" in the same
sentence fragment.)
We will keep this open for discussion and vote using the Poll
feature of egroups, if and when necessary. Once consensus is reached
concerning this and other requirement/design goal issues, focus on
implementation will fall into the hands of the most knowledgeable in
this area.
Richard Anthony Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@o...]
Sent: July 5, 2000 1:26 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain name for XPL)
Richard,
Typically, asynchronous is not the same as non-sequential. A
synchronous stream is one in which the processing thread effectively
locks any other threads until the stream has completely loaded, while
an asynchronous stream is one in which the processing thread
relinquishes control to other threads and works in the background.
The upshot of this is that a synchronous stream can be loaded through
a single call, but it means that NOTHING else happens until the
stream completely loads:
myDoc.async=false
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
The code in the above case will work automatically, but there
will be a (potentially lengthy) delay until the file loads before the
write statement executes. On the other hand:
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
will likely generate an error (or at the very least display
nothing) since the document may not have finished loading before the
write call is made. An asynchronous stream usually relies on some
kind of even binding mechanism. For example:
function outputDoc()
if readyState="complete" then
write myDoc.xml
end if
end function
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
myDoc.onreadyStateChange=outputDoc
(this is pseudo code here, but the idea holds) will call the
function outputDoc any time the ready state of the XML document
changes, and will output the contents when the document has
completely loaded. Asynchronous programming is more complicated to
write, but it makes for more responsive code.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain name for XPL)
I made a new thread for this topic, and encourage people to
make new threads for specific issues so we can have some order when
discussing them, as they respond to individual points. Here I will
discuss and open for Q&A the issue of XPL streaming data.
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or
synchronous format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous
data, including non-XML media types.
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure
what "synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means:
multiple processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct
order; to ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical
conditions, which are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
[RAH]
I will try to explain what I had in mind. As I understand it,
data can be input synchronously or asynchronously. Synchronous would
be according to your definition, and async means that streams of data
can arrive out-of-order and processed independently where possible.
So for example, if you have streaming video the frames themselves may
not arrive in order, and they may even be decoded out of order. The
only point in which they are assembled occurs after processing of the
data, then it's sent to the player for output. In a peer-to-peer
network, this should mean it's possible to get frame 1 from one
location and frame 2 from another, out of sequence, choosing where to
download from based on transfer speed, decode each one of them when
they arrive, independently, and then assemble them. Perhaps this
isn't an XPL issue per se, but a transfer protocol issue.
In a synchronous method, the frames must be downloaded in order
(correct me if I am wrong). So I would have to wait for frame 1 to
be finished downloading before I can retrieve frame 2, decode frame 1
first, then 2, and finally assemble them. Each step could really be
either async or sync, depending on the application and data. XPL
should have the ability to stream data in either fashion, I think.
For example, I can set async download and decoding for the first 30
frames that make up 1 second of video, but get the sets of 30 frames
in order (sync.). So each second is downloaded, decoded and sent to
the player in order, but the frames that make up the second are
downloaded in arbitrary order.
I don't really know if this is simply a protocol issue, but I
am pretty sure that we have to make XPL to be able to recognize the
difference, to be able to tell processes what to do with the data,
and a way to "mark" parts of a data stream in a way that makes it
easy to know where each piece belongs. However, I don't know much
about it, so I differ to the better judgement of my peers, especially
Lucas on this one, since he has been working on protocol issues at a
low level. I think this is his place, not mine, to say and correct.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
[RAH]
Yes, let the protocol people focus on this; I think I'll step
away on this one, and let them work on it.
More to come on the other topics - after lunch!
Richard Anthony Hein
(I got a new job today! Actually, it's not great, but I need a
temporary job to fill in the gaps. It's not even programming, but at
least it'll pay the bills, and I get to go out to all kinds of summer
events. Plus it's for the Ontario Provincial Police, so I am hoping
I can slip in there with some XML apps for collecting and processing
data in the field using PDAs - they have TONS of paperwork. :-)
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:42:22
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
Thanks Kurt, for clearing this up; I appreciate it! I clearly was
making
an error in terms of what sync and async really mean. So now that
that
issue is clearer in my mind, the next question is: what is the
terminology
and process of accessing data non-sequentially called, and would this
be
handled by the transfer protocol itself, or be handled by XPL
processes? Or
can it even work the way I was thinking in the first place?
In any case, the revised requirement/design goal should read:
a.. XPL will stream 0 or more streams of heterogeneous data,
including XML
and/or non-XML media types.
(Please feel free to rephrase this to sound better and be more
concise - I
don't like using "stream ... streams" in the same sentence fragment.)
We will keep this open for discussion and vote using the Poll feature
of
egroups, if and when necessary. Once consensus is reached concerning
this
and other requirement/design goal issues, focus on implementation
will fall
into the hands of the most knowledgeable in this area.
Richard Anthony Hein
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@o...]
Sent: July 5, 2000 1:26 PM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
Richard,
Typically, asynchronous is not the same as non-sequential. A
synchronous
stream is one in which the processing thread effectively locks any
other
threads until the stream has completely loaded, while an asynchronous
stream
is one in which the processing thread relinquishes control to other
threads
and works in the background. The upshot of this is that a synchronous
stream
can be loaded through a single call, but it means that NOTHING else
happens
until the stream completely loads:
myDoc.async=false
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
The code in the above case will work automatically, but there will
be a
(potentially lengthy) delay until the file loads before the write
statement
executes. On the other hand:
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
will likely generate an error (or at the very least display
nothing) since
the document may not have finished loading before the write call is
made. An
asynchronous stream usually relies on some kind of even binding
mechanism.
For example:
function outputDoc()
if readyState="complete" then
write myDoc.xml
end if
end function
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
myDoc.onreadyStateChange=outputDoc
(this is pseudo code here, but the idea holds) will call the
function
outputDoc any time the ready state of the XML document changes, and
will
output the contents when the document has completely loaded.
Asynchronous
programming is more complicated to write, but it makes for more
responsive
code.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain
name for XPL)
I made a new thread for this topic, and encourage people to make
new
threads for specific issues so we can have some order when discussing
them,
as they respond to individual points. Here I will discuss and open
for Q&A
the issue of XPL streaming data.
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On
Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or
synchronous format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous
data,
including non-XML media types.
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure what
"synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means:
multiple
processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct
order; to
ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical
conditions,
which are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
[RAH]
I will try to explain what I had in mind. As I understand it,
data can
be input synchronously or asynchronously. Synchronous would be
according to
your definition, and async means that streams of data can arrive
out-of-order and processed independently where possible. So for
example, if
you have streaming video the frames themselves may not arrive in
order, and
they may even be decoded out of order. The only point in which they
are
assembled occurs after processing of the data, then it's sent to the
player
for output. In a peer-to-peer network, this should mean it's
possible to
get frame 1 from one location and frame 2 from another, out of
sequence,
choosing where to download from based on transfer speed, decode each
one of
them when they arrive, independently, and then assemble them.
Perhaps this
isn't an XPL issue per se, but a transfer protocol issue.
In a synchronous method, the frames must be downloaded in order
(correct
me if I am wrong). So I would have to wait for frame 1 to be finished
downloading before I can retrieve frame 2, decode frame 1 first, then
2, and
finally assemble them. Each step could really be either async or
sync,
depending on the application and data. XPL should have the ability to
stream data in either fashion, I think. For example, I can set async
download and decoding for the first 30 frames that make up 1 second of
video, but get the sets of 30 frames in order (sync.). So each
second is
downloaded, decoded and sent to the player in order, but the frames
that
make up the second are downloaded in arbitrary order.
I don't really know if this is simply a protocol issue, but I am
pretty
sure that we have to make XPL to be able to recognize the difference,
to be
able to tell processes what to do with the data, and a way to "mark"
parts
of a data stream in a way that makes it easy to know where each piece
belongs. However, I don't know much about it, so I differ to the
better
judgement of my peers, especially Lucas on this one, since he has been
working on protocol issues at a low level. I think this is his
place, not
mine, to say and correct.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
[RAH]
Yes, let the protocol people focus on this; I think I'll step
away on
this one, and let them work on it.
More to come on the other topics - after lunch!
Richard Anthony Hein
(I got a new job today! Actually, it's not great, but I need a
temporary job to fill in the gaps. It's not even programming, but at
least
it'll pay the bills, and I get to go out to all kinds of summer
events.
Plus it's for the Ontario Provincial Police, so I am hoping I can
slip in
there with some XML apps for collecting and processing data in the
field
using PDAs - they have TONS of paperwork. :-)
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------
--
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:42:12
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Kurt Cagle" <cagle@o...> wrote:
Richard,
Typically, asynchronous is not the same as non-sequential. A
synchronous stream is one in which the processing thread effectively
locks any other threads until the stream has completely loaded, while
an asynchronous stream is one in which the processing thread
relinquishes control to other threads and works in the background.
The upshot of this is that a synchronous stream can be loaded through
a single call, but it means that NOTHING else happens until the
stream completely loads:
myDoc.async=false
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
The code in the above case will work automatically, but there will be
a (potentially lengthy) delay until the file loads before the write
statement executes. On the other hand:
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
write myDoc.xml
will likely generate an error (or at the very least display nothing)
since the document may not have finished loading before the write
call is made. An asynchronous stream usually relies on some kind of
even binding mechanism. For example:
function outputDoc()
if readyState="complete" then
write myDoc.xml
end if
end function
myDoc.async=true
myDoc.load "mySource.xml"
myDoc.onreadyStateChange=outputDoc
(this is pseudo code here, but the idea holds) will call the function
outputDoc any time the ready state of the XML document changes, and
will output the contents when the document has completely loaded.
Asynchronous programming is more complicated to write, but it makes
for more responsive code.
-- Kurt
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Anthony Hein
To: xpl@e...
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: [XPL] Issue: XPL will stream XML data ... (was Re: a
domain name for XPL)
I made a new thread for this topic, and encourage people to make
new threads for specific issues so we can have some order when
discussing them, as they respond to individual points. Here I will
discuss and open for Q&A the issue of XPL streaming data.
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or
synchronous format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous
data, including non-XML media types.
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure
what "synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means: multiple
processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct order;
to ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical
conditions, which are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
[RAH]
I will try to explain what I had in mind. As I understand it, data
can be input synchronously or asynchronously. Synchronous would be
according to your definition, and async means that streams of data
can arrive out-of-order and processed independently where possible.
So for example, if you have streaming video the frames themselves may
not arrive in order, and they may even be decoded out of order. The
only point in which they are assembled occurs after processing of the
data, then it's sent to the player for output. In a peer-to-peer
network, this should mean it's possible to get frame 1 from one
location and frame 2 from another, out of sequence, choosing where to
download from based on transfer speed, decode each one of them when
they arrive, independently, and then assemble them. Perhaps this
isn't an XPL issue per se, but a transfer protocol issue.
In a synchronous method, the frames must be downloaded in order
(correct me if I am wrong). So I would have to wait for frame 1 to
be finished downloading before I can retrieve frame 2, decode frame 1
first, then 2, and finally assemble them. Each step could really be
either async or sync, depending on the application and data. XPL
should have the ability to stream data in either fashion, I think.
For example, I can set async download and decoding for the first 30
frames that make up 1 second of video, but get the sets of 30 frames
in order (sync.). So each second is downloaded, decoded and sent to
the player in order, but the frames that make up the second are
downloaded in arbitrary order.
I don't really know if this is simply a protocol issue, but I am
pretty sure that we have to make XPL to be able to recognize the
difference, to be able to tell processes what to do with the data,
and a way to "mark" parts of a data stream in a way that makes it
easy to know where each piece belongs. However, I don't know much
about it, so I differ to the better judgement of my peers, especially
Lucas on this one, since he has been working on protocol issues at a
low level. I think this is his place, not mine, to say and correct.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
[RAH]
Yes, let the protocol people focus on this; I think I'll step away
on this one, and let them work on it.
More to come on the other topics - after lunch!
Richard Anthony Hein
(I got a new job today! Actually, it's not great, but I need a
temporary job to fill in the gaps. It's not even programming, but at
least it'll pay the bills, and I get to go out to all kinds of summer
events. Plus it's for the Ontario Provincial Police, so I am hoping
I can slip in there with some XML apps for collecting and processing
data in the field using PDAs - they have TONS of paperwork. :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
xpl-unsubscribe@o...
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:41:33
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote:
I made a new thread for this topic, and encourage people to make new
threads
for specific issues so we can have some order when discussing them,
as they
respond to individual points. Here I will discuss and open for Q&A
the
issue of XPL streaming data.
-----Original Message-----
From: me@m... [mailto:me@m...]On
Behalf Of Jonathan Burns
Sent: July 5, 2000 9:15 AM
To: xpl@e...
Subject: Re: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
a.. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or
synchronous
format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous data, including
non-XML media types.
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure what
"synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means: multiple
processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct order; to
ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical conditions,
which
are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
[RAH]
I will try to explain what I had in mind. As I understand it, data
can be
input synchronously or asynchronously. Synchronous would be
according to
your definition, and async means that streams of data can arrive
out-of-order and processed independently where possible. So for
example, if
you have streaming video the frames themselves may not arrive in
order, and
they may even be decoded out of order. The only point in which they
are
assembled occurs after processing of the data, then it's sent to the
player
for output. In a peer-to-peer network, this should mean it's
possible to
get frame 1 from one location and frame 2 from another, out of
sequence,
choosing where to download from based on transfer speed, decode each
one of
them when they arrive, independently, and then assemble them.
Perhaps this
isn't an XPL issue per se, but a transfer protocol issue.
In a synchronous method, the frames must be downloaded in order
(correct me
if I am wrong). So I would have to wait for frame 1 to be finished
downloading before I can retrieve frame 2, decode frame 1 first, then
2, and
finally assemble them. Each step could really be either async or
sync,
depending on the application and data. XPL should have the ability to
stream data in either fashion, I think. For example, I can set async
download and decoding for the first 30 frames that make up 1 second of
video, but get the sets of 30 frames in order (sync.). So each
second is
downloaded, decoded and sent to the player in order, but the frames
that
make up the second are downloaded in arbitrary order.
I don't really know if this is simply a protocol issue, but I am
pretty sure
that we have to make XPL to be able to recognize the difference, to
be able
to tell processes what to do with the data, and a way to "mark" parts
of a
data stream in a way that makes it easy to know where each piece
belongs.
However, I don't know much about it, so I differ to the better
judgement of
my peers, especially Lucas on this one, since he has been working on
protocol issues at a low level. I think this is his place, not mine,
to say
and correct.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
[RAH]
Yes, let the protocol people focus on this; I think I'll step away
on this
one, and let them work on it.
More to come on the other topics - after lunch!
Richard Anthony Hein
(I got a new job today! Actually, it's not great, but I need a
temporary
job to fill in the gaps. It's not even programming, but at least
it'll pay
the bills, and I get to go out to all kinds of summer events. Plus
it's for
the Ontario Provincial Police, so I am hoping I can slip in there
with some
XML apps for collecting and processing data in the field using PDAs -
they
have TONS of paperwork. :-)
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:40:03
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., Jonathan Burns <saski@w...> wrote:
Richard Anthony Hein wrote:
>
>
> 1. XPL will stream XML data, in an asynchronous and/or synchronous
> format, and support multiple streams of heterogeneous data,
> including non-XML media types.
>
I support this as a requirement, except that I'm not sure what
"synchronous" and "asynchronous"
mean in context here.
From my simple hardware background, "synchronous" means: multiple
processes are going on;
their outputs must be combined, and delivered in a correct order; to
ensure this, processes are
constrained to open for input or output only on logical conditions,
which are dependent on a
global counter or timestamping system.
Is this the sense of things for Web protocols? Lucas? Kurt?
> 1. XPL will format output using XSL.
>
I don't know about this. Is XSL diverse enough to drive the range of
output mechanisms
in current use? Can it efficiently make method calls to COM objects?
Talk to Java Beans?
Generate Perl, or Postscript?
I mean, it was beginning to sound to me that SOAP would make the right
kind of output
stage for most purposes.
> 1. XPL will transform XML data using XSLT.
>
No.
I want a weaker requirement than that. Say,
"All XSLT transformations will be valid XPL operations."
From what I've seen so far, and I emphasize that I've seen a lot more
trees than forests,
I can accept Groves as The inclusive foundation for XPL - but XSLT
only
as a standard
XPL subset, possibly one among many.
Because my impression is, that the XSLT people spend a lot of time
working out how
to make it serve fairly simple ends. It's not just that the XML syntax
is unwieldly,
it's that they can't work out how the pieces fit together.
What I want, and I'll canvas it as a requirement, is:
"XPL operations will be derived from a simple and comprehensible set
of
basic principles."
What might the basics be? I'm not completely sure, but here are the
ones
I'd bet on, currently:
* Recursion.
* Uniform definition of node structure - i.e. architectural forms.
* Recursion in node connectivity definitions - i..e. groves &
hypergroves.
* Regular expressions (regexps) , for text parsing.
* Regular languages (grammars), for document type definition.
* Document types as first-class objects.
* Execution by means of pattern (i.e. regexp) recognition and
substitution.
* Easy use of divide-and-conquer algorithms.
* Object-oriented programming.
Each of these has either, an inherent simplicity, or a coherent
theoretical basis.
Except maybe for OOP, but OOP includes important principles of
distinction
such as encapsulation, which help avoid inappropriate couplings.
Obviously, I'll need to explain some of these principles really soon.
I
was hoping for
more time, to do a compare-and-contrast between XSLT and several other
widespread
tree-structured programming-language paradigms, before I opened my
yap.
Going into
them right now means setting aside the first JDK I've ever used,
before
I've had any
hands-on with XML at all.
I'll back up and do it if need be - but I think it's premature. I
really
have to mobilize
the XML/XSL machinery, and run a few stylesheets of a few documents,
before I
can seriously judge the worth of XSLT.
> 1. XPL will be optimized to operate on a peer-to-peer network,
> however client-server models and offline computing will also be
> supported fully.
>
Lucas Gonze is the one to ask about this.
Lucas, what features in an XML-processing system (think of this as
pipelining
XLST transformations) would make it most suitable for efficient use
of a
peer-to-peer protocol such as WorldOS?
> 1. XPL will use agents, among other methods to operate on XML.
>
I agree - at least so far as I understand agents. We're talking about
XPL documents,
i.e. programs, which wander about in the fog, processing public
documents and
dispatching the results to their owners or to public collections - am
I
right?
> 1. XPL will use RDF to locate resources.
>
This sounds right. RDF is a siteless, content-addrssed structure, if I
recall.
But, and I hate to say this, RDF is one more semi-standard for me to
study up -
and compare with Linda, which sounds similar - before I can pronounce.
> 1. XPL will use XLink to create, follow, and generate links
between
> resources.
>
> 1. XPL will use XPath as the language to describe resource
> locations.
>
Same qualms as with XSLT.
> 1. XPL will be an interface-based object-oriented language, and
the
> interfaces will be exposed as XML 1.0 compliant XML (although
the
> programs themselves may or may not be).
>
I'm sure this is right.
> 1. XPL will NEVER support APIs that are not FULLY opensource and
> public domain, as closed source APIs may fork XPL.
>
Rather than "never support", I would like to require "never be
dependent
on".
If XPL turns out to be really useful, private outfits will define
support in it for their
own APIs, and the specification will fork.
> 1. Anyone MAY create private APIs, however, they MAY NOT publish
or
> redistribute said APIs outside of private or corporate usage,
> unless first reviewed, accepted, integrated (into the XPL API
> library) and simultaneously published by the XPL working group.
> Upon such an event, the API also becomes opensource and public
> domain under the license terms which XPL operates under (yet to
> be decided).
>
I don't see that we have the right to require this of anyone, or the
ability to enforce it.
As an analogy, does W3C have any right to prevent, say Allaire from
reproducing
XSLT as a feature of Cold Fusion?
I certainly understand the intention to reject any engulf-and-extend
monkey business
on the part of private corps. I'm just not sure that we can.
> There's ten. They are simple, and say at least a few things that
XPL
> will do. Comments? Number 10 is a tricky one. Richard A. Hein
Sorry if I seem balky on some of these. They are the right questions
to
ask,
it's just that I plain don't know some of the answers.
Back soon
Jonathan
--- End forwarded message ---
|
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:39:35
|
--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: Sheesh, no wonder I have carpal tunnel syndrome ... all I intended to write was, "oh, it's ME!", "I agree Mark", and "That's what that POLL link is for!" But look what happened .... -----Original Message----- From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] Sent: July 5, 2000 12:50 AM To: xpl@e... Subject: [XPL] Re: Goals (was RE: a domain name for XPL) oops, I meant Richard Anthony (you) and I was referring to the tome you wrote which eloquently stated amongst other things... [Richard Anthony Hein] Hehe, jokes on us both! I spent a good 45 minutes searching through past emails, and on the egroups web pages (thinking somehow I deleted that one message I wrote to "Anthony"), and scratching my head in wonder! LOL!! What is XPL supposed to accomplish? http://www.egroups.com/message/xpl/241?&start=215 At this point some more of the 89 members of this group should speak up about what they want to see happening. If no one does, that should then be taken as silent consent and we should move on. [Richard Anthony Hein] I guess there is a time for everything. I hate to think that people far more experienced and knowledgeable than I are just sitting and watching while I make an idiot of myself trying to help develop. Sometimes I feel like I have been trying to touch the bottom of the deep end of the pool for the first time, all the while in the back of my mind thinking I may have enough air in me to get to the bottom, but totally worried I won't be able to make it back up! Maybe other people feel the same kind of way about it. If that doesn't make some people who have been holding back comfortable enough to speak up and risk making mistakes in an open forum, I don't know what else to say. If you (the people who lurk in the darkness) don't think the group has the depth to accomplish things, you're plain wrong. I am not tooting my horn here - I just took off my water wings, ok - I am talking about web designers, programmers, compiler expert, technical writers, presenters, web administrator (is that your title Mark?), consultant, database developer (who needs to work with more powerful database systems, to really be considered an expert, for a few more years), protocol developer (is there an appropriate title for this??), and a lot more. And we all really, really like XML and it's promise. I suck compared to these other people, but hey, I am here trying my butt off to be useful, because I want to be part of this. I hope others will do the same. Unless momentum, roles and a clear vision and delivery schedule is set up, I doubt we will deliver anything. Now is the time for the 89 people to stand up and say "hell-no, we won't go" (or something like that) and share ownership of some aspect of this group. [Richard Anthony Hein] I agree 100% on this issue. I understand now why the Apache XML project has a system of roles based on contribution. Useless contribution has to be filtered sometimes (a lot of it mine), but for the most part, it's a good idea. Richard, you can create polls in eGroups... have you considered setting up a poll on potential visions? Then we can vote for our choice? [Richard Anthony Hein] D'oh!! That's what that "POLL" link is for! Sheesh. I guess I should get more familiar with egroups' web site eh? Cheers, Mark. [Richard Anthony Hein] I'll drink to that! Richard Anthony Hein (as if you didn't know that by now ;-) --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > Great Mark, I am glad to read all this. A couple of things - I don't think > that we have established a clear goal yet; please tell me what you see that > has been established. Maybe I am the only one confused about our goal for > XPL. I have ideas, but they are not the same as other people's ideas here, > and I don't think there is a firm statement of purpose. > > If you mean the concept of XPL-Fog, I am not sure if that has been accepted > (personally, I like that one line vision you stated). I looked at the > messages relating to it, and saw Jonathan and Kurt in particular making some > very interesting comments, and what not, and then it dropped, seemingly > because it's out of scope, or maybe more to do with the idea of building a > evolving 'net and the implications of that. That's pretty far into the > future (the evolving 'net), but I ask again, isn't that what the .NET > concept and J2EE (don't know enough about Oracle's me-too tech. .NOW) will > eventually lead to? Anyhow .... > > We need to clear this up. That's what the requirements thing (what is XPL > required to accomplish) is supposed to clarify. We haven't had nearly > enough discussion about the requirements Jonathan put up, so I am not ready > to say that these are established yet. However, after we get the web site > up, then it should be easier to review that which has been pretty much > agreed upon. We'll get there. > > Everything else you mentioned, I am happy to hear, and certainly believe you > would be excellent in the role of community awareness/management. I have no > problems with that. There has to be some organization. However, I don't > speak for the group. This is exactly the type of thing that we need to > seriously work out. There has got to be a forum to collaborate, and even > vote on issues (such as roles), and share code, check them in, etc.... Is > there an opensource app. available out there that anyone can suggest for > such a thing? I don't think we will get very far without some instant > messaging and what not to collaborate, brainstorm, etc... with. I would say > NetMeeting, but I highly doubt that everyone will be using Windows. > > One last question; kind of embarrassing: Who is Anthony, and what document > are you referring to? > > Sincerely, > > Richard A. Hein > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] > Sent: July 4, 2000 7:18 PM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > > > Richard, that is no problem. I am all for supporting XPL (and XPipes > and WorldOS and Metaset). These are organic by-the-people and for- > the-people project. > > Besides, I like hangin around smart people... makes me feel good. > > OK, so when you edit your page and make it a home, I will promote the > hell out of it. > > My only suggestion is to SET EXPECTATIONS. What this means is that > first impressions count. People will want to see documents like you > provided Anthony. They will want to know what he goal is (you have > all estalished that quite well) and by comparing the MS, Oracle and > Sun goals with your own will be VERY enticing. > > Have a clearly defined 1 line vision is important. "To build a data > cloud everyone can use" could be one. Whatever. > > But, yes, when you have your sub-web up, I will promote it for you. > > In the longer run, with so many exciting projects floating around > the .NET (aaargh, I couldn't resist it!) I would like to centralise > them in a place where they can feed off each other. I am good at > this kind of stuff. > > (I am currently very into organic designs and natural systems, whee > people with different needs cooperate to form a better whole, like > VBXML does). > > WARNING: I have seen many of these types of projects burn out in a > twinkling of an eye. They exist, they burn brightly, then they die. > To avoid this, they sell out or get sponsors (WROX?) etc... Let's not > do this. All it takes is a clear vision, *community > awareness/management* and constant momentum. > > If you guys ever assign roles to yourselves, I would like to take the > role of community awareness/management - and the first thing I would > do is have you move into the VBXML website and get more concrete > about your steps going forward. > > Last comment. I don't pretend to be an XSL guru. I don't pretend to > understand how you will build what you want to build. But I really > am keen to help you survive the first few years as a community - the > aspect which technical groups usually lose focus on. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Mark. > > > --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > > Mark, > > I know we don't have much to link to, but can you put up something > on > > VBXML's main page to link to XPL's page? Nobody knows we are > there. We > > need more people to work on this. Maybe wait a few days until I > have my > > compilation done, and people here now, especially our writers > (Kurt :-) > > reviews it and adds his comments and changes to it (ie. chops it > up ;-)? > > > > Richard A. Hein > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] > > Sent: July 4, 2000 8:17 AM > > To: xpl@e... > > Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > > > > > > > OR! > > > > you guys could simply move into the > > http://www.vbxml.com/xpl > > location I set up for you some time back. > > > > That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into > > contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when > > you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think > > you would be better off). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Mark. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---- > -------- > > -- > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---- > -------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -------- > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -------- > -- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
|
From: reid_spencer <ras...@re...> - 2002-01-31 09:39:10
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--- In xpl-dev@y..., "Mark Wilson" <mark_tracey@y...> wrote: oops, I meant Richard Anthony (you) and I was referring to the tome you wrote which eloquently stated amongst other things... What is XPL supposed to accomplish? http://www.egroups.com/message/xpl/241?&start=215 At this point some more of the 89 members of this group should speak up about what they want to see happening. If no one does, that should then be taken as silent consent and we should move on. Unless momentum, roles and a clear vision and delivery schedule is set up, I doubt we will deliver anything. Now is the time for the 89 people to stand up and say "hell-no, we won't go" (or something like that) and share ownership of some aspect of this group. Richard, you can create polls in eGroups... have you considered setting up a poll on potential visions? Then we can vote for our choice? Cheers, Mark. --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > Great Mark, I am glad to read all this. A couple of things - I don't think > that we have established a clear goal yet; please tell me what you see that > has been established. Maybe I am the only one confused about our goal for > XPL. I have ideas, but they are not the same as other people's ideas here, > and I don't think there is a firm statement of purpose. > > If you mean the concept of XPL-Fog, I am not sure if that has been accepted > (personally, I like that one line vision you stated). I looked at the > messages relating to it, and saw Jonathan and Kurt in particular making some > very interesting comments, and what not, and then it dropped, seemingly > because it's out of scope, or maybe more to do with the idea of building a > evolving 'net and the implications of that. That's pretty far into the > future (the evolving 'net), but I ask again, isn't that what the .NET > concept and J2EE (don't know enough about Oracle's me-too tech. .NOW) will > eventually lead to? Anyhow .... > > We need to clear this up. That's what the requirements thing (what is XPL > required to accomplish) is supposed to clarify. We haven't had nearly > enough discussion about the requirements Jonathan put up, so I am not ready > to say that these are established yet. However, after we get the web site > up, then it should be easier to review that which has been pretty much > agreed upon. We'll get there. > > Everything else you mentioned, I am happy to hear, and certainly believe you > would be excellent in the role of community awareness/management. I have no > problems with that. There has to be some organization. However, I don't > speak for the group. This is exactly the type of thing that we need to > seriously work out. There has got to be a forum to collaborate, and even > vote on issues (such as roles), and share code, check them in, etc.... Is > there an opensource app. available out there that anyone can suggest for > such a thing? I don't think we will get very far without some instant > messaging and what not to collaborate, brainstorm, etc... with. I would say > NetMeeting, but I highly doubt that everyone will be using Windows. > > One last question; kind of embarrassing: Who is Anthony, and what document > are you referring to? > > Sincerely, > > Richard A. Hein > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] > Sent: July 4, 2000 7:18 PM > To: xpl@e... > Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > > > Richard, that is no problem. I am all for supporting XPL (and XPipes > and WorldOS and Metaset). These are organic by-the-people and for- > the-people project. > > Besides, I like hangin around smart people... makes me feel good. > > OK, so when you edit your page and make it a home, I will promote the > hell out of it. > > My only suggestion is to SET EXPECTATIONS. What this means is that > first impressions count. People will want to see documents like you > provided Anthony. They will want to know what he goal is (you have > all estalished that quite well) and by comparing the MS, Oracle and > Sun goals with your own will be VERY enticing. > > Have a clearly defined 1 line vision is important. "To build a data > cloud everyone can use" could be one. Whatever. > > But, yes, when you have your sub-web up, I will promote it for you. > > In the longer run, with so many exciting projects floating around > the .NET (aaargh, I couldn't resist it!) I would like to centralise > them in a place where they can feed off each other. I am good at > this kind of stuff. > > (I am currently very into organic designs and natural systems, whee > people with different needs cooperate to form a better whole, like > VBXML does). > > WARNING: I have seen many of these types of projects burn out in a > twinkling of an eye. They exist, they burn brightly, then they die. > To avoid this, they sell out or get sponsors (WROX?) etc... Let's not > do this. All it takes is a clear vision, *community > awareness/management* and constant momentum. > > If you guys ever assign roles to yourselves, I would like to take the > role of community awareness/management - and the first thing I would > do is have you move into the VBXML website and get more concrete > about your steps going forward. > > Last comment. I don't pretend to be an XSL guru. I don't pretend to > understand how you will build what you want to build. But I really > am keen to help you survive the first few years as a community - the > aspect which technical groups usually lose focus on. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Mark. > > > --- In xpl@e..., "Richard Anthony Hein" <935551@i...> wrote: > > Mark, > > I know we don't have much to link to, but can you put up something > on > > VBXML's main page to link to XPL's page? Nobody knows we are > there. We > > need more people to work on this. Maybe wait a few days until I > have my > > compilation done, and people here now, especially our writers > (Kurt :-) > > reviews it and adds his comments and changes to it (ie. chops it > up ;-)? > > > > Richard A. Hein > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Wilson [mailto:mark_tracey@y...] > > Sent: July 4, 2000 8:17 AM > > To: xpl@e... > > Subject: [XPL] Re: a domain name for XPL > > > > > > > > OR! > > > > you guys could simply move into the > > http://www.vbxml.com/xpl > > location I set up for you some time back. > > > > That would bring 40 000 visitors each month into > > contact with this project - quite a boost! Then when > > you have a URL, then move in there (if you still think > > you would be better off). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Mark. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > > http://invites.yahoo.com/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > -------- > > -- > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > -------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > xpl-unsubscribe@o... > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > -- > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > xpl-unsubscribe@o... --- End forwarded message --- |
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