Re: [E-devel] eOrg Facelift RFC

[Moritz A. <mor...@gm...>]

Hehe Ben, you are right.
Well here's my Masterplan:

#1: get new users hooked on E and it's tools.
#2: have those new users hook more users on E with envy because of it's beauty.
#3: have a certain percentage of possible coders in there
#4: have a decent and good API documentation that is very appealing
and allows for easy lookups
#5: grow.

At a certain stage we will have to make our different approach at
things understood.
( remember the 'metatheming' edje converstation?! )

So for your reply.
The phpBB thing was just one of those 'consistancy' things. Well that
kind of does not confirm with to the e approach. But I want to get
users hooked and make them have a commen, knowen and well understood
system makes it easier for them to use.
If you buy a toaster you expect it to have a power cable and a push
down button. Not some
solar panel and a remote-control.

Sure the LW is coming. And it's idiotic to make a whole new site with
having to create new content and stuff. But what if we just wrap the
old content in new shape?

The redesign mockups I have made  are part of this RFC, wich to all
what I know stands for request for <b>comments</b>, it was never
intended to be final or anything.
Nor do I want to design a system that is at any point hardwired with
the content and the design. I'd more like some system that serves the
data in a generic way to have it easily themed. ( like edje, just for
the web )

I do would like a 'lets see what it could/should look like` thingy.
But so far I've been working quite on my own. If tokyo or pixelhead or
some other great graphics magician is on this list.
I'd have expected comments.

Well might be I'm too naive and have too less knowledge about E.

I jut don't want to go in some depessive way I went last time after I
handed e1x over to Andrew because I just could not get any foot
onboard and was rejected for my ideas just be everybody.

I do see and aknoledge that you and a few others like what I have in
mind that is something I appreciate a lot.

I just don't see where the huge difference is with making the info
more eye-candy, peasing available to the user and making more info in
a less pleasing way. I know this sounds harsh but I can't find the
right words just now.

And making me doc is wrong. As much as you`d like me to ;)

so far
 kindest regards,
  Moritz "neofeed" Angermann

PS: does someone else have any opinion on this?! just curious...
On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:53:03 -0700, Ben Rockwood <be...@cu...> wrote:
> Thanx for the warm responce Moritz.  I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I
> think you've got alot of ideas that'll
> work well with alittle time and planning.  I think that with alittle
> planning we can get a forum system that
> will be helpful.  It may catch on, it may not, but it's a good resource
> to have.  We all will acknolage freely
> that the SF forums suck, but I think if they were getting hit harder
> we'd probly be forced to find a better
> solution.  70% of all support and discussion happens in IRC, the other
> 30% happen in the mailing lists.
> Generally posts made to the forums are because the individual simply
> doesn't know about the lists, or
> prefers static forums over lists or IRC.  I agree that if we are going
> to put a forum in place at some point
> it needs to be done inline with the site, and not some offsite
> quasi-official forum like we have now.
> And it doesn't matter what we use, phpBB doesn't make a board popular,
> the topic and location do, phpBB just
> adds some nifty functionality.
> 
> As for the missing pages on E.org, that is being addressed now.  This is
> part of what needs to be brought
> up to snuff before LW.  The pages don't exist because I have no content
> ready.  There is, as I type, a list
> under my keyboard outlining all the pages I need to re-hash, expand, and
> add.  These would be done shortly.
> But the most important thing about these pages is that they be
> technically correct and helpful.  A classic
> problem with site management is that the "web monkeys" (me atm i guess)
> don't know all the in's and out's
> of the codebases they are writting about, and the developers who should
> be pimping their code are too busy
> coding to care.  Thus you have crappy web pages and confused users.
> Before we start re-hashing pages
> we have to sit down and write some apps to get teh feel back before we
> start pimping code, so that the devs
> are happy, the users are informed, and the web monkeys can feel
> confident in the content they deliver.
> Currently, I'm pushing out 2 things together, the EFL CookBook and the
> website, because I can work on sample
> code for the Cookbook, and then use that as a good refresher on how I
> want to accurately pimp the libs.
> I'd rather have no page in the interum, than empty pages.  It'll come soon.
> 
> If we are going to redesign the site at some point, put out a general
> call for ideas first to see what other
> folks have thought of before solidifying any plans.  Tokyo (our Sr
> Graphics and Theme Designer) has some
> majorly kool ideas that would need to be looked at in that process.
> 
> benr.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moritz Angermann wrote:
> 
> >Hey Ben,
> >Thanks for the feedback.
> >
> >I do see that LW is somewhat a deadline.
> >I've to admit that my C skills have went far beyond quality. Since I did mostly
> >Web stuff. I think I could most of the site get reorganized, styled etc. up to
> >Aug 2nd. And as I got no idea on my previous proposal except a few comments
> >on IRC.. I started takeing the whole thing a little further.
> >The colors were taken from the Winter theme. And yes they might not be the best.
> >But they are not the worst in my eyes too.
> >
> >The forum was there since some time but It's not present. Wich makes
> >it mere obsolet.
> >The SF forums are nothing to compair. They are not userfriendly in a
> >way the user
> >are used to. Even gentoo and other Sites footnotes have phpBB style forums. And
> >there are a lot more out there. Nearly every Webgameing clan has a
> >phpBB or Invasion
> >Board. They are just what people are used to.
> >The ML should stay at SF I never intended to actually use some other.
> >
> >
> >The planet sure. It might get slow as e does ( not yet) consist of a
> >lot of people. But
> >that might change.
> >
> >I don't think I'm useful at doc`ing as I'm horribly Dyslexic and for
> >code, see first paragraph.
> >Nor am I a themer of quality. So I was thinking that maybe a more
> >friendly and mroe warm
> >e.org apperance might help user/developer and themer access info more easily.
> >As I, and this is my very personal opinion, find the current e.org
> >site cold and not
> >very wellcoming.
> >
> >The Offsite notes on in the RFC were only to mark not to value.
> >
> >Concerning Evoak. There is not even a link on e.org for evoak.
> >nor is there one for engage or emotion. I don't know if this has been
> >done on purpose.
> >
> >The rollout app was actually an idea of raster's. Yesterday morning on irc.
> >Just my opinion and what I think I could be most useful at.
> >
> >kindest regards,
> > Moritz "neofeed" Angermann
> >
> >On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:23:07 -0700, Ben Rockwood <be...@cu...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Here's my take, others comment as you see fit.
> >>
> >>This is not a good time to re-invent the wheel.  LW is a month off,
> >>we're getting bits slowly into place with hopes to have a good
> >>showing... overhaul of the website doesn't make sense right now.
> >>Granted, if your gonna overhaul the site, do it before the show, which
> >>is why the layout was "upgraded" some time ago.  However with 30 days
> >>and counting a mass overhaul is a bad idea.
> >>Furthermore, the proposed colors are... imho, a poor choice, we'll say.
> >>The ideas you have are good ones, I think you've got some promising
> >>ideas, but why can't we apply some new ideas to what we have rather than
> >>completely re-implementing offsite?
> >>We have forums (SF), we have lists (SF), not to mention that e1x has
> >>been there for ages, and cuddletech as an E forum as well (admitadly,
> >>it's fairly Solaris/ports specific).  In our experience, I think it's
> >>safe to say, forums haven't been a big win, and sure you can blame that
> >>on them being offsite, but I don't see there being enough potential
> >>there.  Further, the Blogs idea is yet another good one, however we have
> >>a big problem... most of us maintain our own blogs/news offsite and
> >>don't update it very often.  Okey, so planet is implemented and for
> >>acouple weeks we're all into it and update more often, but that'll pass
> >>in time.
> >>The "News" page (and the whole site) are up for anyone with CVS access
> >>to modify, folks can put anything at all that they want there, it's
> >>always been that way.
> >>
> >>Again, you've got some great ideas.  I'd like many of them to work, but
> >>what we need now is docs and code.  The time that goes into implementing
> >>blogs could be used creating new sample Edje's, or adding recipes to the
> >>cookbook, or adding examples to pages already on the site, or improving
> >>apps that are there.  Frankly, a new Entice theme to show just how much
> >>flexablity that Edje/Embryo provides is a far better use of time than
> >>anything mentioned here.  A rollout app (epackage) is a good idea, but
> >>that involves a lot of code, and a whole lot more testing, which is
> >>going to take at least 3months working at a fast clip, imho.  We need
> >>deliverables by Aug 2nd.  Evoak, work with evoak, doc evoak, write
> >>tutorials about evoak, write sample apps or port existing apps to evoak
> >>via a "-client" arg.  Improve Erss and create new themes for it.  Kick
> >>out some really great EWL apps. Etc, etc, etc.
> >>
> >>Say what you will about the e.org's design... we would all probly like
> >>something much much better, I'll be the first to say so...
> >>but I don't think this is the time.
> >>
> >>Please feel free to comment anyone who wants to.  This is a community
> >>project, and obviously everyone can do anything they wish, this is just
> >>my opinion.
> >>
> >>benr.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Moritz Angermann wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>[Was: E-Org facelift - Now: eOrg RFC]
> >>>
> >>>$ Moritz Angermann, v1, July 2nd 2004 $
> >>>
> >>>what is this?
> >>>=============
> >>>This is about a possible Redising and reorganisation of
> >>>the eOrg Webrepresentation.
> >>>The idea is to generate a better publicity.
> >>>And more people to use e/eOrg/eApps. Yes this is about
> >>>PR. I'm not a PR expert but I'd like to try.
> >>>
> >>>The Goal
> >>>========
> >>>The goal shall be to make e more friendly for user,
> >>>developer and themer. And give a better overview of the
> >>>whole e-project.
> >>>
> >>>Let's go
> >>>========
> >>>As of now(irc of today) we would be having at least 3 modules.
> >>>
> >>>o Some kind of server as integral part for datasupply.
> >>>o e.org website using the data supplied from the server.
> >>>o Some kind of Store/iTunes/RedCarpet like thingy.
> >>>
> >>>e.org
> >>>=====
> >>>A general User, Developer, Themer seperation.
> >>>a scatched out layout idea can be found at http://neofeed.blogspot.com
> >>>The current e.org page has mixed all together.
> >>>
> >>>e.org
> >>> Project
> >>>  Overview
> >>>  News
> >>>  FAQ
> >>>  Documentation
> >>>  Releases [offsite sf.DL]
> >>>  Source
> >>>  Community [ML, IRC, e1x, cuddletech]
> >>>  Join Us!
> >>> DR16
> >>>  Enlightenment
> >>>  Imlib
> >>>  Screenshots
> >>>  Get DR16
> >>>  Themes [fm]
> >>> EFL
> >>>  Overview
> >>>  Imlib2
> >>>  Edb
> >>>  EET
> >>>  Evas
> >>>  Ecore
> >>>  Etox
> >>>  Edje
> >>>  EWL
> >>> DR17
> >>>  Enlightenment
> >>>  Entice
> >>>  Evidence [Offsite]
> >>>  Entrance
> >>>  Euporia [Offsite - ome where have I landed? SUN?]
> >>>  eRSS
> >>> Development
> >>>  The Team
> >>>  CVS RSS
> >>>  CIA
> >>>  BugTrack [Offsite]
> >>>  Logos
> >>>  Links
> >>>
> >>>Most of this is Developer Centric. Though a metalib covering
> >>>documentation is missing.
> >>>The fontsize is small and not too appealing/hard to read in my opinion.
> >>>
> >>>We all know e17 won't build and as such is dead. Currenly when using
> >>>e everyone is using e16
> >>>with the tools based on EFL.
> >>>
> >>>Thus a quick way how a layout could look:
> >>>
> >>>e.org
> >>> Users
> >>>  enlightenment (e16)
> >>>   download
> >>>   themes
> >>>   screenshots \w comments
> >>>  enlightenment apps
> >>>   {a generic e app
> >>>    Download
> >>>    Applicaion Screenshots
> >>>    Themes (Edje)
> >>>    Comments
> >>>    Bug Report
> >>>   }
> >>>   Entice
> >>>   Evidence
> >>>   Entrance
> >>>   Euphora
> >>>   (Emotion)
> >>>   (Engage)
> >>>   (Examine)
> >>>   (ETerm)
> >>>   [...]
> >>>  User Forum/ML/IRC
> >>> Developer
> >>>  Overview of all the libs
> >>>   Imlib2 ( do we still want Imlib? )
> >>>   Edb
> >>>   EET
> >>>   Evas
> >>>   Ecore
> >>>   Etox
> >>>   Edje
> >>>   EWL
> >>>   (where is the E-OSD)
> >>>  Documentation
> >>>   Something like http://go-mono:8080 and http://www.php.net/printf
> >>>could be nice. \w comments
> >>>  Developer Forum/ML/IRC
> >>>  (Public e-applicaion)
> >>>  Team(?)
> >>> Themer
> >>>  Introduction to Edje
> >>>  Documentation Edje
> >>>   I don't think that http://go-mono:8080 or http://www.php.net/printf
> >>>  Tutorials Edje
> >>>  Themer Forum/ML/IRC
> >>>  (Publish Themes)
> >>> Planet.e.org
> >>> Links
> >>>
> >>>o.org would have to be easily extenable and maintainable while being
> >>>at the same time simple to query via a generic extenable interface
> >>>(RPC anyone?).
> >>>
> >>>eFrontEnd
> >>>==========
> >>>Raster had the idea of having something RedCarpet alike or iTunes.
> >>>Where one would simply click the App one wants and it would get installed.
> >>>Possibly popping up with a Dialog to select the wished themes.
> >>>And something like this in the background:
> >>>`epackage -repo http://repository.enlightenment.org/repo -install examine`
> >>>
> >>>eBackEnd a.k.a. Server
> >>>=======================
> >>>Would have to supply the requested data without too much hazzle.
> >>>I have no Idea how the phpBB would be weeded in this... Rewrite?
> >>>Neighter do I have an idea what to do with the Planet software.
> >>>This could probably be Engeneered in PHP.
> >>>
> >>>The missing parts
> >>>=================
> >>>We do not yet have a way to do the server/client communication.
> >>>XML would come to ones mind though raster has no clear view on
> >>>why to use xml for this instead of some binary/text format.
> >>>
> >>>Suggestions, Ideas, Comments are wellcome!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


-- 

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