Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

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Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled. 

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Dammeyer <jo...@au...> 
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' <emc...@li...>
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.  

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.  

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:alb...@gm...]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> a product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we 
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools, 
> especially if the tools involve computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.    The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the 
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> anything by hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old 
> guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made 
> anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer <jo...@au...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has 
> > nothing to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or 
> > looked into LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your
statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and 
> > hold the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning 
> > anything, charge accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob 
> > and can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >
> > Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation 
> > was how easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot 
> > on non Tormach Hardware.
> >
> > IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a 
> > simple easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis 
> > mill.  The menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the 
> > parallel port (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but 
> > doesn't go far enough.
> >
> > There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select 
> > motors based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt 
> > reduction.  But the learning curve is steep and is just easier with 
> > systems that are not LCNC.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pg...]
> > > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> > Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> > > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  
> > > I'm
> > sorry but freedom of customization comes
> > > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> > use/run almost anything, you're going to
> > > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You 
> > > want
> > simple buy some simple 4 axis all
> > > in one stepper box and plug it in.
> > >
> > > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and 
> > > hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't
> > > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> > >
> > > Todd Zuercher
> > > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > > 630 Henry Street
> > > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John Dammeyer <jo...@au...>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
> > > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
> > > <emc...@li...
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> > >
> > > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bod...@gm...]
> > > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken...@sy... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the 
> > > > > widescale adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and
intuitive UI.
> > > >
> > > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they 
> > > > are
> > _all_ terrible?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> > terrible.
> > >
> > > Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally 
> > > out the
> > door and he's at an income level
> > > where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just bought a small 
> > > mill.  He
> > starts looking at CNC.
> > >
> > > At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the 
> > > free
> > Fusion 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is
> > > now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.
> > >
> > > OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
> > >
> > > So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available
> > including even AliExpress which has CNC boxes
> > > for $300.
> > >
> > > Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the 
> > > youtube
> > videos become his other source of
> > > information and education.  The most interesting ones appear to be 
> > > ones
> > with 10's of thousands of
> > > subscribers that in fact are really long mostly to have multiple
> > advertisers.  But at the time he's not aware that
> > > the videos are short on information, long on con for supporting 
> > > lots of
> > advertising.
> > >
> > > IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more 
> > > likely the
> > poster is there to monetize than to
> > > actually provide useful help.   How interesting to watch a milling
> > cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth
> > > making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
> > >
> > > So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore
> .mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3F
> > >
> >
> route%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26path%3D83_84%26product_id%3D215&data=05%7C
> 01%7Ctoddz%40pgra
> > > hamdunn.com
> > %7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb
> > 43%7C0%
> > >
> >
> 7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiL
> > >
> >
> CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QsuaNDdgukaAklsVBz
> raskOqkJrgDYP%2B7
> > > e9BcWa62nI%3D&reserved=0
> > > Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like 
> > > the
> > ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...
> > >
> > > Oh but then someone suggests
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore
> .mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3F
> > >
> >
> route%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26product_id%3D381%26search%3D7i92&data=05%7
> C01%7Ctoddz%40pgra
> > > hamdunn.com
> > %7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb
> > 43%7C0%
> > >
> >
> 7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiL
> > >
> >
> CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lNSWiCwuqqIMsYjHAE
> fR9JqJAjsWNK9DeF
> > > 9GsKztVJg%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these 
> > > and
> > cheap too.
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> aliexpress.com%2Fitem%2F33
> > > 015669728.html&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
> > %7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a697
> > >
> >
> 7%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUn
> known%7CTWFpb
> > >
> >
> GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0
> %3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7
> > > C&sdata=LclFcxiqe05h7ZMNmrFS3%2Fri1wQ7cRfBl1KFG0z51OQ%3D&reserved=
> > > 0
> > >
> > > Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about 
> > > these
> > new step-servos.  One brand in
> > > particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or with belts and pulleys?
> > >
> > > So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like
> > mine.  He used the Leadshine step servos and
> > > ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per the youtube video.  Making chips.
> > >
> > > And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or 
> > > so
> > LCNC user interfaces to use.
> > >
> > > The above is I think the typical thought processes.
> > >
> > > I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying 
> > > to
> > figure out whether I should spend $400 for a
> > > touch screen HDMI 21" screen or some other user interface.  Really 
> > > miss
> > the MACROs from MACH3 though.  I
> > > think that's what's called the conversational interface on Tormach?
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc...@li...
> > >
> >
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist
> s.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistin
> > > fo%2Femc-
> > > users&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
> > %7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C57585
> > >
> >
> 44c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CT
> WFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
> > >
> >
> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
> %7C%7C%7C&sdata=R3
> > > B7SVuYgzAgLRBVbhziV0q1g1QJi0lI1vbmlsoWvsA%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > >
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> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> _______________________________________________
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