[Embedlets-dev] Re:[Ant] Build vs Deployment vs Management processes

[Ted K. <tk...@ya...>]

Nicola,

>All this discussion on Ant... why don't you all just 
>try it and ditch it with the speed of light if there 
>is a better alternative or it doesn't work?

This hits on a question I have been thinking about with regards to open source
development.  Since Andrzej will probably be the first committer for the
Embedlet Container, and I will probably be the first committer for the Wiring
Tool, is it acceptable for us to kind of force an issue like this by submitting
these initial code bases with Ant build scripts and a directory structure
optimized for use with Ant?  Somehow this does not 'feel' quite right and yet
perhaps allowing the initial 'doers' to make decisions like this is open
source's practical solution to a tough problem?

Anyway, one way to answer your question is with another question like the
following:

'We know that Enterprise Java developers think that Embedded Java systems like
TINI (www.ibutton.com/tini) are really interesting and that they look like they
would be fun to play with.  Since these systems are relatively inexpensive
(TINIs are around $110) then why don't they just buy one and give it a try?”

The problem isn't the cost or the programming environment.  The problem is that
most CS-oriented developers (like Enterprise Java developers ) do not know
anything about things like voltage, current, chip Data Sheets, electronics
tools (http://www.ibutton.com/TINI/developers/tkosan.html), etc.  The barrier
preventing them from even figuring out how to get started with something like a
TINI is extremely high.

Now one needs to take this scenario and map it into an analogous perspective
from a typical embedded systems programmer's point of view.  Most embedded
systems programmers do not know what an application server is, or a
presentation layer, a database, make, CVS, object oriented programming, XML
parsers, etc.  The barriers that bar typical embedded systems developers from
just playing with stuff in the CS-oriented software world are similar in
severity to the things that bar CS-oriented developers from playing with stuff
in the embedded world.

A typical embedded systems developer who might be interested in downloading and
playing with something like Velocity is immediately faced with a number of
conceptual hurdles to overcome.  The first is CVS (or any versioning system). 
Almost none of the embedded developers I know use something like CVS (or even
know what it is) and they are immediately faced with quite a steep learning
curve to figure is out.  After they succeed in getting the software on their
computer (probably from just downloading the tarball!) then they are faced with
building it.  The next hurdle is that most embedded developers that I know
never really learned what build systems like make are for and so they are going
to have a tough time figuring out what Ant is without having anything to
compare it to.  And these barriers go on and on...

My main point here is that the embedded systems developers and the CS-oriented
developers live in very different worlds which have mostly orthogonal skill
sets.  The good news is that, hopefully, the community that is being built
around this open source Embedlets project looks like it has a good chance to
become a place where these two groups can meet in order to figure out a way to
bring these two areas together (and this needs to happen somewhere before the
projection of 'billions of devices being attached to the internet' can come
true).  It looks like there is going to need to be a lot of 'hand holding' on
both sides throughout this process but I suppose that this is all part of the
adventure.



>I am *very* ignorant about embedded devices, but 
>this is inversely propositional to my interest 
>in it and in my knowledge of Ant ;-)

And of course I am just getting started with Ant but know much about embedded
systems. ;-)  I have a couple of ideas here:

1)  What does everyone think about us setting up a CS-oriented
developer/Embedded Systems developer list within this project where people from
both areas can ask hand-holding level questions to each other?  I know that
there are a lot of CS-oriented questions I would like to know the answers to
but the main developer list does not seem to be the best forum for doing this. 
If we are going to try to integrate these two areas, a 'no question is too
stupid' list like this might prove to be helpful.

2)  Are you interested in learning how to start playing with a Java based
embedded system like TINI?  If so I will send you a free TINI and help you to
get up and running with it.  This should help for gaining a feel for what the
embedded systems side of 'the great divide' is like. ;-)



>I want to help in this great project and don't really get 
>it just yet ;-)

Well, you already have started to help!  I downloaded Forrest this week and
started playing with it (I even forced myself to download the source version
and build it from scratch in order to learn how to do this better).  I must say
that Forrest is an amazing piece of work and I am in the process of setting it
up for an experimental version of the Embedlets.org main web site.

I am firmly convinced that at least 50% of the benefits derived from this
Embedlets project is an open source community where the CS-oriented world and
the Embedded Systems world can be brought together and synthesized.  If this is
true then it is going to be very important for use to develop, publish and
maintain a significant number of documents which explain exactly what we are
doing and how each area relates to the other.  After studying this problem for
the past couple of months I have not found a system that even comes close to
Forrest for solving it (thanks for the tip!).


Let me know about the TINI,

Ted


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