docutils-users

[Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Nicolas R. <Nic...@in...>]

Hi folks,

I've made an attempt some time ago (before the introduction of the math directive) at (re-)writing a published article using a modified rst2html.py.

You can see the result here:
http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.html

Sources:
http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.rst
http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/rst2html.py

(Maths are rendered using jsMath)


Hope this might be useful to someone.


Nicolas

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Guenter M. <mi...@us...>]

On 2011-10-13, Nicolas Rougier wrote:

> I've made an attempt some time ago (before the introduction of the math
> directive) at (re-)writing a published article using a modified
> rst2html.py.

> You can see the result here:
> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.html

> Sources:
> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.rst
> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/rst2html.py

> (Maths are rendered using jsMath)

How did you manage the references? After addition of math, citation
managements seems to be the biggest obstacle to using rst in scientific
context.

Günter

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Nicolas R. <Nic...@in...>]

The list of references has been added by hand (which is far from optimal) and the transformation is made based on the citation:

[AuthorA:year] => (AuthorA , year)
[AuthorA+AuthorB:year] => (AuthorA and AuthorB, year)
[AuthorA+Al:year] => (AuthorA et al., year)

(and if second author name is Al, then there is a problem).

Nicolas


On Oct 14, 2011, at 22:41 , Guenter Milde wrote:

> On 2011-10-13, Nicolas Rougier wrote:
> 
>> I've made an attempt some time ago (before the introduction of the math
>> directive) at (re-)writing a published article using a modified
>> rst2html.py.
> 
>> You can see the result here:
>> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.html
> 
>> Sources:
>> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/article.rst
>> http://www.loria.fr/~rougier/coding/article/rst2html.py
> 
>> (Maths are rendered using jsMath)
> 
> How did you manage the references? After addition of math, citation
> managements seems to be the biggest obstacle to using rst in scientific
> context.
> 
> Günter
> 
> 
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Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 2:58 AM, Nicolas Rougier wrote:
> the transformation is made based on the citation


You can get much of this functionality from bibstuff.

But your post is a reminder:
As things stand, restructured text does not support
citations with instance specific data (e.g., page number).
It would be great to add a discussion of how to add data
that for now at least all writers feel free to ignore.

Here is one proposal: how about allowing braces-enclosed
arbitrary text at the end of the citation.
This is not actually ugly. Maybe it is
not too hard to modify DU to handle?  E.g.,

[imauthor-2011-jdu{page:55}]_ ...[imauthor-2011-jdu{page:99}]_

would generate only one citation (to imauthor-2011-jdu) but
the default would be to include those two distinct pieces of
text in the citation references.

Resolving this one issue would be a breakthrough for
citation handling.

Alan Isaac

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 8:14 AM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 2:58 AM, Nicolas Rougier wrote:
>> the transformation is made based on the citation
>
> You can get much of this functionality from bibstuff.
>
> But your post is a reminder:
> As things stand, restructured text does not support
> citations with instance specific data (e.g., page number).
> It would be great to add a discussion of how to add data
> that for now at least all writers feel free to ignore.
>
> Here is one proposal: how about allowing braces-enclosed
> arbitrary text at the end of the citation.
> This is not actually ugly. Maybe it is
> not too hard to modify DU to handle?  E.g.,
>
> [imauthor-2011-jdu{page:55}]_ ...[imauthor-2011-jdu{page:99}]_
>
> would generate only one citation (to imauthor-2011-jdu) but
> the default would be to include those two distinct pieces of
> text in the citation references.
>
> Resolving this one issue would be a breakthrough for
> citation handling.
>
>
But what if the citation requires other information, such as a volume 
number? I think a more flexible solution would involve CSV within the 
citation:

[imauthor-2011-jdu 55 X "Spring and Summer"]_

The first field would always point a key to the full bibliographic 
reference; the second, to the page number (the most often used), the 
third for the volume, and so fourth. I did a lot of work with 
bibliographic references some time back, and I remember how many 
exceptions there are to a standard entry.

The advantage of CSV is that it is readable. In most cases, the entry 
would consist of a key followed by a space, followed by a number. In 
addition, CSV is understood by almost everyone, and is very easy to 
parse without having to write lots of extra code.

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 9:08 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> But what if the citation requires other information, such as a volume
> number? I think a more flexible solution would involve CSV within the
> citation:
>
> [imauthor-2011-jdu 55 X "Spring and Summer"]_


I suppose from your example that you mean *space* separated values.

The format I proposed in much more powerful, in that
it allows identification of each field.  I chose it
for resemblance to a Python dict.

But more to the point, the information you are talking
about is not specific to a single citation reference instance;
it belongs to the entire citation.  So that is where it should go,
not in the citation reference.

(Actually, where it should go is in a bibliographic database
that is accessed using the citation reference key. You can
have this basic functionality via bibstuff.)

Cheers,
Alan Isaac

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 9:39 AM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 9:08 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>> But what if the citation requires other information, such as a volume
>> number? I think a more flexible solution would involve CSV within the
>> citation:
>>
>> [imauthor-2011-jdu 55 X "Spring and Summer"]_
>
> I suppose from your example that you mean *space* separated values.
>
> The format I proposed in much more powerful, in that
> it allows identification of each field.  I chose it
> for resemblance to a Python dict.
>
> But more to the point, the information you are talking
> about is not specific to a single citation reference instance;
> it belongs to the entire citation.  So that is where it should go,
> not in the citation reference.
>
> (Actually, where it should go is in a bibliographic database
> that is accessed using the citation reference key. You can
> have this basic functionality via bibstuff.)
>
>
A space is a legal identifier in a CSV field. My example is CSV. If it 
were just space separated, then it would see the string "Spring and 
Summer" as 3 different fields; CSV reads them as one.

The info I am talking about is not in the bibliographic database, but in 
the actual citation. For example, the author cited above may point to a 
multi volume work. The citation needs to point to not only the page, but 
the volumes. For example, in MLA format:

"It is noted by prominent critics that Homer was most likely not blind 
from birth (Bergonzi, p 55, vol. X)."

The reference looks like:

Bergonzi, James: *The Ancients." New York: Some Publishing House. 2001

In rst:

"It is noted by prominent critics that Homer was most likely not blind 
from birth [Begonzi, 55 X]_"

<some type of database here, such as
   author: Bergonzi, James
   book: The Ancients
   Pub-place: New York
   Pub-name: Some Publishing House
 >

(Note: the "Spring and Summer" in my original entry was a bogus example, 
in which I was trying to show that actual citations sometimes have to 
include multiple fields.)

But if you think psuedo dictionaries would work, then my example could 
very well be

[imauthor-2011-jdu {p:55} {vol:X} {time-of-year:Spring and Summer}]_

At first glance, your method would be easier to parse. In my method, the "time-of-year" field always has to be third. So if there is not volume, it looks like:

  [imauthor-2011-jdu 55 "" "Spring and Summer"]_

Whereas your method, not needing an empty middle field, looks like:

[imauthor-2011-jdu {p:55}  {time-of-year:Spring and Summer}]_

In fact, why not combine the two methods? If there is just a page number (the case probably 90% of the time,), simply use a space:

[imauthor-2011-jdu 55]_

For more complicated entries, use the dictionary format.

Paul

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 10:09 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> A space is a legal identifier in a CSV field. My example
> is CSV. If it were just space separated, then it would see
> the string "Spring and Summer" as 3 different fields; CSV
> reads them as one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

> The info I am talking about is not in the bibliographic
> database, but in the actual citation. For example, the
> author cited above may point to a multi volume work. The
> citation needs to point to not only the page, but the
> volumes. For example, in MLA format:

My view is that your citation should specify the volume,
although obviously your field may have a different practice.
In any case [mykey{page:197,volume:2}]_ does what you want.

> In rst:
> "It is noted by prominent critics that Homer was most
> likely not blind from birth [Begonzi, 55 X]_"

Too implicit.

> In fact, why not combine the two methods? If there is just
> a page number (the case probably 90% of the time,), simply
> use a space:

Too implicit.

fwiw,
Alan

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Ben F. <ben...@be...>]

Paul Tremblay <pau...@gm...> writes:

> But of course, you are avoiding the issue: language takes its meaning
> on how it is used, not on some arbitrary definition. Everyone knows
> what CSV means.

Everyone knows what “I could care less” means. That doesn't make it any
less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it go.

-- 
 \              “There are no chaplains in foxholes.” —Sergeant Justin |
  `\                                              Griffith, 2011-07-27 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 6:45 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Tremblay<pau...@gm...>  writes:
>
>> But of course, you are avoiding the issue: language takes its meaning
>> on how it is used, not on some arbitrary definition. Everyone knows
>> what CSV means.
> Everyone knows what “I could care less” means. That doesn't make it any
> less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it go.
>
I don't know if that phrase is an offense, but it is different from the 
phrase "CSV," or "band aid." (Do you really get offended when someone 
asks for a band aid?)

  What does "hound?" mean? Why don't we say "wif" for wive, as the 
people did in Britain over a thousand years. Language changes, mainly 
because of the way people use it. As far as offense goes, Swift once 
though that using contractions was an offense, and many people thought 
*Huck Finn* an offense too. Often "offense" concerning language has 
nothing to do with good language usage.

Paul

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Bob P. <rgp...@gm...>]

On 10/17/2011 03:45 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Tremblay<pau...@gm...>  writes:
>
>> But of course, you are avoiding the issue: language takes its meaning
>> on how it is used, not on some arbitrary definition. Everyone knows
>> what CSV means.
> Everyone knows what “I could care less” means. That doesn't make it any
> less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it go.
>

I find language very interesting. A lawyer friend was reprimanded by a 
judge for what she said to the opposing lawyer. I suggested the next 
time she use biblical terminology and tell the other lawyer to "go forth 
and know thyself." We humans are rather silly creatures.

--Bob

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Aahz <aa...@py...>]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Tremblay <pau...@gm...> writes:
>> 
>> But of course, you are avoiding the issue: language takes its meaning
>> on how it is used, not on some arbitrary definition. Everyone knows
>> what CSV means.
> 
> Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it any
> less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it go.

You know, I could care less what you think.
-- 
Aahz (aa...@py...)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait
until you hire an amateur."  --Red Adair

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Ben F. <ben...@be...>]

Aahz <aa...@py...> writes:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it
> > any less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it
> > go.
>
> You know, I could care less what you think.

So you *do* care. Wonderful!

I couldn't care less that the above phrase has popular support; it's
still wrong because the construction doesn't match what is being
communicated.

The same is true for “CSV” if the format you're describing isn't
separated by commas.

-- 
 \         “I was gratified to be able to answer promptly and I did. I |
  `\       said I didn't know.” —Mark Twain, _Life on the Mississippi_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: [Docutils-users] OT: DSV vs CSV

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 8:46 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> please explain how major software, such as Python, OO, and
> Excel are wrong.


They did not get it wrong.

Spreadsheets generally use a correct default.

They allow users to do the wrong thing,
because they are not in the business of
standards enforcement. They are in the
business of user convenience.  Thus the
features for handling CSV files were
repurposed for handling DSV files.

Since users do the wrong thing all the time,
it is convenient to provide flexibility in
data reading.  Especially in much of the
business world, where expecting people
to care about scientific standards is to
dream the impossible dream.

So, you are just noting some convenience features
and repurposed functionality.  This has nothing
to do with correct usage, which only involves knowing
what the C in CSV stands for.

Alan

Re: [Docutils-users] OT: DSV vs CSV

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 10:20 PM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 8:46 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>> please explain how major software, such as Python, OO, and
>> Excel are wrong.
>
> They did not get it wrong.
>
> Spreadsheets generally use a correct default.
>
> They allow users to do the wrong thing,
> because they are not in the business of
> standards enforcement. They are in the
> business of user convenience.  Thus the
> features for handling CSV files were
> repurposed for handling DSV files.
>
> Since users do the wrong thing all the time,
> it is convenient to provide flexibility in
> data reading.  Especially in much of the
> business world, where expecting people
> to care about scientific standards is to
> dream the impossible dream.
>
> So, you are just noting some convenience features
> and repurposed functionality.  This has nothing
> to do with correct usage, which only involves knowing
> what the C in CSV stands for.
>
> A
  So then I suppose python language got it wrong, and so did the 
developers at restructuredtext. (See my last email, or the CSV table 
documentation.) Why exactly you think everyone else is wrong certainly 
mystifies me.

Can we move forward in this discussion?

Re: [Docutils-users] OT: DSV vs CSV

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 11:09 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> So then I suppose python language got it wrong, and so did the developers at restructuredtext.

Again, you are conflating two things:
the existence of functionality with a correct default,
and the appended flexibility to handle related DSV formats.
I already explained this.

Again, in the context of scientific data, if you sent
someone a ``.csv`` file that used any delimiter except
a comma, it would be like playing a prank.

Similarly, if you wrote a CSV parser that could not
handle comma separaters, it would be completely baffling.
But csv parsers that require commas exist.

The core meaning of "comma-separated values" is that there
is a comma separator. Initially, that was its unambiguous meaning.
But because many CSV parsers have appended the ability
to accept other delimiters (especially whitespace),
there has been a small drift in meaning.  But not to the
extent you imply.  For example, it would still be very
puzzling behavior to send someone a file with a .csv
extension that uses white-space delimiters.

Can we at least agree that would be bad behavior?

Cheers,
Alan

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 10:32 AM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 10:09 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>> A space is a legal identifier in a CSV field. My example
>> is CSV. If it were just space separated, then it would see
>> the string "Spring and Summer" as 3 different fields; CSV
>> reads them as one.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values
I'm not sure of your point. See

http://docs.python.org/library/csv.html


 >>for row in csv.reader(['imauthor-2011-jdu 55 X "Spring and Summer"'], 
delimiter= ' '):
 >>print row

['imauthor-2011-jdu', '55', 'X', 'Spring and Summer']


>
>> The info I am talking about is not in the bibliographic
>> database, but in the actual citation. For example, the
>> author cited above may point to a multi volume work. The
>> citation needs to point to not only the page, but the
>> volumes. For example, in MLA format:
> My view is that your citation should specify the volume,
> although obviously your field may have a different practice.
> In any case [mykey{page:197,volume:2}]_ does what you want.

No, not at all, because that undermines the whole purpose of 
bibliographic management, that you specify the minimal data, and let the 
formatter format it. In this case, there are two different bits of data, 
along with the key: the page number, and the volume. MLA may require 
that you write "p. 55, vol. 2" whereas another publication may require 
that you write "page:197, Volume:2".
>
>> In rst:
>> "It is noted by prominent critics that Homer was most
>> likely not blind from birth [Begonzi, 55 X]_"
> Too implicit.
>
>> In fact, why not combine the two methods? If there is just
>> a page number (the case probably 90% of the time,), simply
>> use a space:
> Too implicit.
>
>
>
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean by "too implicit."

Paul

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

>> On 10/17/2011 10:09 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>>> A space is a legal identifier in a CSV field. My example
>>> is CSV. If it were just space separated, then it would see
>>> the string "Spring and Summer" as 3 different fields; CSV
>>> reads them as one.

> On 10/17/11 10:32 AM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

On 10/17/2011 12:28 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> I'm not sure of your point. See

> http://docs.python.org/library/csv.html

This is really OT, but my point was simply that
1. CSV means *comma* separted values
    http://creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm
    even space-separated value files are sometimes called CSV
2. Quoting can be used with either CSV or SSV

Alan

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 4:23 PM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2011 10:09 AM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>>>> A space is a legal identifier in a CSV field. My example
>>>> is CSV. If it were just space separated, then it would see
>>>> the string "Spring and Summer" as 3 different fields; CSV
>>>> reads them as one.
>> On 10/17/11 10:32 AM, Alan G Isaac wrote:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values
> On 10/17/2011 12:28 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>> I'm not sure of your point. See
>> http://docs.python.org/library/csv.html
> This is really OT, but my point was simply that
> 1. CSV means *comma* separted values
>      http://creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm
>      even space-separated value files are sometimes called CSV
> 2. Quoting can be used with either CSV or SSV
>
>

No, Allen. From your own link: "For the record */there is currently no 
such thing as a standard CSV format/*." Since python recognizes spaces 
as a csv files, and so do OpenOffice and Word, it seems that spaces are 
an accepted delimeter for CSV. I don't know why you insist on being so 
pedantic about something, especially if it is off topic. It is pretty 
obvious that python can parse the code either way, so again, what is 
your point?

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On 10/17/2011 4:46 PM, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> I don't know why you insist on being so pedantic

Love of language.

If you want the closest there is to a standard,
look at rfc 4180.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180#page-2 (point 4)

CSV = **comma** separated values, no matter what
various tools will parse.

Alan

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Ben F. <ben...@be...>]

Paul Tremblay <pau...@gm...> writes:

> On 10/17/11 8:17 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Aahz<aa...@py...>  writes:
> >
> >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> >>> Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it
> >>> any less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it
> >>> go.
> >> You know, I could care less what you think.
> > So you *do* care. Wonderful!
> >
> > I couldn't care less that the above phrase has popular support; it's
> > still wrong because the construction doesn't match what is being
> > communicated.
> >
> > The same is true for “CSV” if the format you're describing isn't
> > separated by commas.
> >
> Wrong on both counts. It is pretty clear what Aahz means.

You keep repeating that point as though it argues against what I've been
saying. On the contrary; I agree entirely that Aahz's meaning is clear
in that case.

It's *still* incorrect, for the reasons I've explained.

-- 
 \         “If history and science have taught us anything, it is that |
  `\     passion and desire are not the same as truth.” —E. O. Wilson, |
_o__)                                              _Consilience_, 1998 |
Ben Finney

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Aahz <aa...@py...>]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Tremblay <pau...@gm...> writes:
>> On 10/17/11 8:17 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> Aahz<aa...@py...>  writes:
>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it
>>>>> any less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it
>>>>> go.
>>>>
>>>> You know, I could care less what you think.
>>>
>>> So you *do* care. Wonderful!
>>>
>>> I couldn't care less that the above phrase has popular support; it's
>>> still wrong because the construction doesn't match what is being
>>> communicated.
>>>
>>> The same is true for ?CSV? if the format you're describing isn't
>>> separated by commas.
>>
>> Wrong on both counts. It is pretty clear what Aahz means.
> 
> You keep repeating that point as though it argues against what I've been
> saying. On the contrary; I agree entirely that Aahz's meaning is clear
> in that case.
> 
> It's *still* incorrect, for the reasons I've explained.

You're wrong.  The English language as used by millions of people has
voted against you.  You lose.  You can rant and flail and snark, but it
will have no effect.  Part of the problem is that you are not recognizing
the irony of the construction, which is a standard feature of many
English idioms.

(I happen to agree that calling whitespace-delimited "CSV" is a Bad
Idea, but you're choosing a spectacularly broken way of making your
point and I'm not going to let you get away with it.  I'm also opposed
to any prescriptivist meaning for "CSV" that excludes tab-delimited
files -- that's also a lost battle.)
-- 
Aahz (aa...@py...)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait
until you hire an amateur."  --Red Adair

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Ben F. <ben...@be...>]

Aahz <aa...@py...> writes:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> > It's *still* incorrect, for the reasons I've explained.
>
> You're wrong.  The English language as used by millions of people has
> voted against you.  You lose.

The popularity of a position doesn't affect its correctness. I wasn't
trying to win, and my position is unaffected by how many people “vote”
against it.

> You can rant and flail and snark, but it will have no effect.

Agreed, so I won't begin doing those. I'll stick to my preferred
approach, calm persuasion with whatever factual and reasoned support I
can muster.

Whether that has the desired effect is another matter, of course
<URL:http://blogs.hbr.org/bregman/2011/02/arguing-is-pointless.html>.

> (I happen to agree that calling whitespace-delimited "CSV" is a Bad
> Idea, but you're choosing a spectacularly broken way of making your
> point and I'm not going to let you get away with it. I'm also opposed
> to any prescriptivist meaning for "CSV" that excludes tab-delimited
> files -- that's also a lost battle.)

The criticism of my failure to make my point is well made, and I accept
that now. Thanks.

-- 
 \     “There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority |
  `\           assailed by truth.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, 1989-07-28 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Paul T. <pau...@gm...>]

On 10/17/11 8:17 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Aahz<aa...@py...>  writes:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it
>>> any less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it
>>> go.
>> You know, I could care less what you think.
> So you *do* care. Wonderful!
>
> I couldn't care less that the above phrase has popular support; it's
> still wrong because the construction doesn't match what is being
> communicated.
>
> The same is true for “CSV” if the format you're describing isn't
> separated by commas.
>
Wrong on both counts. It is pretty clear what Aahz means. In the same 
way, look at the double negative construction: I ain't got not money. 
Some idiot literalists claim that the double negative makes a positive 
construction. But no one doubts the meaning of the speaker: he has 
absolutely no money. Double negatives were used widely by Shakespeare. 
In fact, no one would have even doubted their mean and use except 
prescriptive grammarians started applying mathematical rules to 
language. (Other languages use double negatives with no problem.) That's 
the way it is with grammar. People get a few rules (and often the rules 
aren't correct), and suddenly they are an expert on language and want to 
tell everyone else how to speak.

As far as CSV goes, if people know what a word means, and they agree on 
its meaning, then that is the meaning of the word. If you think 
otherwise, please explain how major software, such as Python, OO, and 
Excel are wrong.

Paul

Re: [Docutils-users] Scientific article example

[Aahz <aa...@py...>]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011, Paul Tremblay wrote:
> On 10/17/11 8:17 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Aahz<aa...@py...>  writes:
>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Everyone knows what "I could care less" means. That doesn't make it
>>>> any less an offense to language, and it doesn't argue for letting it
>>>> go.
>>>
>>> You know, I could care less what you think.
>>
>> So you *do* care. Wonderful!
>>
>> I couldn't care less that the above phrase has popular support; it's
>> still wrong because the construction doesn't match what is being
>> communicated.
>>
>> The same is true for ?CSV? if the format you're describing isn't
>> separated by commas.
>
> Wrong on both counts. It is pretty clear what Aahz means. In the same 
> way, look at the double negative construction: I ain't got not money. 
> Some idiot literalists claim that the double negative makes a positive 
> construction. But no one doubts the meaning of the speaker: he has 
> absolutely no money. Double negatives were used widely by Shakespeare. 
> In fact, no one would have even doubted their mean and use except 
> prescriptive grammarians started applying mathematical rules to 
> language. (Other languages use double negatives with no problem.) That's 
> the way it is with grammar. People get a few rules (and often the rules 
> aren't correct), and suddenly they are an expert on language and want to 
> tell everyone else how to speak.

Yeah, right.

(In case anyone isn't clear, that's an example of an inverted double
positive.  Double-plus good!)
-- 
Aahz (aa...@py...)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait
until you hire an amateur."  --Red Adair