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From: Santiago P. C. <San...@yd...> - 2002-05-16 13:43:43
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Well... I don't want to start a flame-war right now but... We can 'take a look to your arguments' also: 1 - Information can be send without HTML formatting, and yes, it will be fully understandable! Just think about C/C++ code, it's written in plain text and you do not need 'extra formatting' to understand it ;o) 2 - While talking about text/document formatting we can say it is like text editting for coding: you can use graphical IDEs (like Dev-C++ / KDevelop) or you can use console programs (like aedit / vi). Should I stop using 'vi' because there is 'emacs'? 3 - You're NOT sending e-mails to your friends, you're posting/requesting information on a mailing list.. I think it is a little bit different ;o) 4 - Indentation, word-wrapping, '>' chars... If you do not care about how your text/document looks like, your mail program / editor will not do that job for you =8-O 5 - 'Plain text vs HTML mail war' is quite similar to 'text editors vs text processors': Will you use M$ Word, WordPerfect or so to write a simple text? So 'Plain TEXT vs HTML mail war' is not to be solved by 'change your email client: it's your problem!' ;o) We are talking about what is needed: HTML is not needed here, I know it is fine and funny (web browsing is good and the web is really full of info), but it is not necessary in a mailing list... Even more, it can become annoying in certain cases!!! BTW: Talking about virusses and so on... Do you really think that 'Melissa and its friends' will ask the user for confirmation on their actions? Just my 2 cents! Santy -----Original Message----- From: Bob Wilson [mailto:bo...@ph...] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:22 AM To: Dev-C++ User Mailing List Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > > Here's my list of arguments: > > > 1) You're only sending an email here. Markups are completely redundant. > > > All this HTML only waste space and bandwidth. > > > > > > 2) HTML mail with hardcoded fontnames look horrible in my Linux > > > emailclient. > > > > > > 3) HTML mail can contain script viruses. > > > > > > 4) HTML mail mess up the archives. When you try to see a message in the > > > archive, you see all the HTML code instead of the email! Well, that all depends! What follows is better than what is above. Here's my list of arguments: You're only sending an email here. Markups are completely redundant. All this HTML only waste space and bandwidth. HTML mail with hardcoded fontnames look horrible in my Linux emailclient. HTML mail can contain script viruses. HTML mail mess up the archives. When you try to see a message in the archive, you see all the HTML code instead of the email! Let's look at your arguments one-by-one: Yes, I am sending an email, the purpose of which is to transmit information. Understanding is enhanced with good formatting which is allowed with automated html email programs such as Outlook or Outlook Express. The multiple ">" which appear in non html forwarded emails can not only inhibit comprehension, but also the inability of such an email does not have any word wrap which combined with the ">" can make the whole message damn near unintelligible. This is the real problem, your environment or at least your email program. It is certainly true that I or anyone else can build an html file which will do nasty things, but the programs that generate html enabled emails (Outlook, Outlook Express) will not activate a virus without the active involvement of the person who receives the email. Again it is your environment that is the problem. Regards, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any wrong transmission. If you have received this message in error, please immediately destroy it and kindly notify the sender by reply email. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Ydilo Advanced Voice Solutions, S.A. shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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From: Santiago P. C. <San...@yd...> - 2002-05-17 08:46:14
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Well... RTF, XML, LaTeX, PDF & PS are also portable and widely used, why do not use that formats to write emails? =8-O What I want is to give some constructive critics, so sorry for the previous sarcasm, it is not intended to hurt anyone... :o) HTML purpose is to create web pages, not only to format text (HTML handles a lot of elements that aren't 'text'), so the point here could be: use HTML for what it is supposed to be used => web pages! We're writting emails, not designing web pages. We're also not formatting text, we're still writting emails, so if you want to format TEXT use RTF (or LaTeX or whatever you want). And there's another point here: email clients _CAN_ support HTML but in fact they _MUST_ support PLAIN TEXT !!! Email clients can support a lot of formats but (AFAIK) there's no indication / recomendation about supportting HTML or not, it is up to the developer to do so. Just remember that HTML is handled by mail servers as plain text... Anyway, please don't try to argue that "because HTML is newer and looks nice it should replace plain text in mailing lists"! Just think about this: why not avoid the use of C/C++ and port everything to Java? Java is newer, portable, easier... BUT C/C++ is rock-solid, creates smaller executables, faster programs, etc that's why we are here talking about C/C++, right? Now replace C/C++ with plain text and Java with HTML... * Should we replace the use of plain-text-based email clients just because there are HTML? * Why not to use HTML for the things it was designed for and plain text for what is was being used for (like emails)? * The same for C/C++ and Java: It's better to write some programs in C/C++ and some others in Java, the last will not replace the former and viceversa. Things are not black or white, there are a lot of grey scales... And I've also heared about something called 'colors' ;o) Regards, Santy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any wrong transmission. If you have received this message in error, please immediately destroy it and kindly notify the sender by reply email. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Ydilo Advanced Voice Solutions, S.A. shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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From: Brian P. <br...@su...> - 2002-05-16 14:22:27
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In the end the whole issue boils down to this: It is (and has always been) considered in poor taste to use HTML formating when posting to discussion forums using email. There rarely are ever any written rules to this effect; it has just always been understood. Call it common net-icate. The reasons, the main reasons, people don't want HTML in the emails are two (one stated already): bandwidth and, believe it or not, there are still people using email clients that don't translate HTML coding. So, the word is, be nice and use text-only mode when posting. That's all. No law, no punishment (usually), just be considerate. I really like Dev-C++! (Sorry, I felt that I must say something about the program since that is what this list is for :-) b-- On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 06:43, Santiago Palmier Campos wrote: > Well... I don't want to start a flame-war right now but... > > We can 'take a look to your arguments' also: > > 1 - Information can be send without HTML formatting, and yes, it will be > fully understandable! Just think about C/C++ code, it's written in plain > text and you do not need 'extra formatting' to understand it ;o) > > 2 - While talking about text/document formatting we can say it is like text > editting for coding: you can use graphical IDEs (like Dev-C++ / KDevelop) or > you can use console programs (like aedit / vi). Should I stop using 'vi' > because there is 'emacs'? > > 3 - You're NOT sending e-mails to your friends, you're posting/requesting > information on a mailing list.. I think it is a little bit different ;o) > > 4 - Indentation, word-wrapping, '>' chars... If you do not care about how > your text/document looks like, your mail program / editor will not do that > job for you =8-O > > 5 - 'Plain text vs HTML mail war' is quite similar to 'text editors vs text > processors': Will you use M$ Word, WordPerfect or so to write a simple text? > So 'Plain TEXT vs HTML mail war' is not to be solved by 'change your email > client: it's your problem!' ;o) > We are talking about what is needed: HTML is not needed here, I know it is > fine and funny (web browsing is good and the web is really full of info), > but it is not necessary in a mailing list... Even more, it can become > annoying in certain cases!!! > > BTW: Talking about virusses and so on... Do you really think that 'Melissa > and its friends' will ask the user for confirmation on their actions? > > Just my 2 cents! > Santy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Wilson [mailto:bo...@ph...] > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:22 AM > To: Dev-C++ User Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > > > > > Here's my list of arguments: > > > > 1) You're only sending an email here. Markups are completely > redundant. > > > > All this HTML only waste space and bandwidth. > > > > > > > > 2) HTML mail with hardcoded fontnames look horrible in my Linux > > > > emailclient. > > > > > > > > 3) HTML mail can contain script viruses. > > > > > > > > 4) HTML mail mess up the archives. When you try to see a message in > the > > > > archive, you see all the HTML code instead of the email! > > Well, that all depends! What follows is better than what is above. > Here's my list of arguments: > You're only sending an email here. Markups are completely redundant. All > this HTML only waste space and bandwidth. > HTML mail with hardcoded fontnames look horrible in my Linux emailclient. > HTML mail can contain script viruses. > HTML mail mess up the archives. When you try to see a message in the > archive, you see all the HTML code instead of the email! > > Let's look at your arguments one-by-one: > Yes, I am sending an email, the purpose of which is to transmit information. > Understanding is enhanced with good formatting which is allowed with > automated html email programs such as Outlook or Outlook Express. The > multiple ">" which appear in non html forwarded emails can not only inhibit > comprehension, but also the inability of such an email does not have any > word wrap which combined with the ">" can make the whole message damn near > unintelligible. > This is the real problem, your environment or at least your email program. > It is certainly true that I or anyone else can build an html file which will > do nasty things, but the programs that generate html enabled emails > (Outlook, Outlook Express) will not activate a virus without the active > involvement of the person who receives the email. > Again it is your environment that is the problem. > Regards, > > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. No confidentiality > or privilege is waived or lost by any wrong transmission. > If you have received this message in error, please immediately destroy it and kindly > notify the sender by reply email. > You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any > part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Opinions, conclusions and > other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of > Ydilo Advanced Voice Solutions, S.A. shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > _______________________________________________ > Dev-cpp-users mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dev-cpp-users > |
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From: Ioannis V. <no...@ho...> - 2002-05-16 21:56:39
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Guys do not bother. It is a religious war and religions don't change so easily. :) There are the text guys and there are the graphics guys. I recall older times when there was the antiframe movement, that is to create web sites without frames. Believe it or not, those guys still believe the same things! Around that time there was the anti-html movement (ASCII movement) that said we do not need html. Obviously Hongli Lai belongs to that old movement or is directly affected by that. Don't expect one another to change. :) Ah, and Elvis is alive! Ioannis * Ioannis Vranos * Programming pages: http://www.noicys.cjb.net * Alternative URL: http://run.to/noicys > -----Original Message----- > From: dev...@li... > [mailto:dev...@li...] On Behalf > Of Santiago Palmier Campos > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:44 PM > To: Dev-C++ User Mailing List > Subject: RE: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > > Well... I don't want to start a flame-war right now but... > > We can 'take a look to your arguments' also: > > 1 - Information can be send without HTML formatting, and yes, > it will be > fully understandable! Just think about C/C++ code, it's > written in plain > text and you do not need 'extra formatting' to understand it ;o) [...] |
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From: Hongli L. <h....@ch...> - 2002-05-17 05:58:19
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On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 23:56, Ioannis Vranos wrote: > Guys do not bother. It is a religious war and religions don't change so > easily. :) There are the text guys and there are the graphics guys. > > I recall older times when there was the antiframe movement, that is to > create web sites without frames. Believe it or not, those guys still > believe the same things! Around that time there was the anti-html > movement (ASCII movement) that said we do not need html. Obviously > Hongli Lai belongs to that old movement or is directly affected by that. > Don't expect one another to change. :) > > Well actually there was a time when I loved all this HTML mail stuff... until I realized how useless it is. Use HTML for what it's supposed to do: creating websites. This is a public mailing list, with all kinds of people with different configurations and clients (even clients that do not support HTML). And the archive doesn't support HTML either. What's so difficult in sending non-HTML email to a mailing list? There's no point in sending HTML mail when there's no formatting anyway, so why bother use it? |
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From: Ioannis V. <no...@ho...> - 2002-05-17 07:01:09
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Hongli Lai [mailto:h....@ch...] > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:02 AM > To: Ioannis Vranos > Cc: Dev-C++ Mailing List > Subject: RE: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > > On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 23:56, Ioannis Vranos wrote: > > Guys do not bother. It is a religious war and religions > don't change so > > easily. :) There are the text guys and there are the graphics guys. > > > > I recall older times when there was the antiframe movement, > that is to > > create web sites without frames. Believe it or not, those guys still > > believe the same things! Around that time there was the anti-html > > movement (ASCII movement) that said we do not need html. Obviously > > Hongli Lai belongs to that old movement or is directly > affected by that. > > Don't expect one another to change. :) > > > > > > Well actually there was a time when I loved all this HTML > mail stuff... > until I realized how useless it is. > Use HTML for what it's supposed to do: creating websites. Actually its purpose is to format text. > This is a public mailing list, with all kinds of people with different > configurations and clients (even clients that do not support HTML). > And the archive doesn't support HTML either. Yes but HTML is portable, so the clients should support it. :) > > What's so difficult in sending non-HTML email to a mailing list? > There's no point in sending HTML mail when there's no > formatting anyway, > so why bother use it? Well you have actually a point. But people usually send html in the list because they have it as a default to new email, since people sometimes communicate with formatted text. And we are bored to change from within a menu to simple text in a new message. But since HTML is standardised, it should be supported from any decent mail client (and it is even in Linux). Sometimes some clients cannot write in HTML but they can read it. Ioannis * Ioannis Vranos * Programming pages: http://www.noicys.cjb.net * Alternative URL: http://run.to/noicys |
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From: <v-...@ou...> - 2002-05-17 09:16:06
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Hi Ioannis, > But since HTML is standardised, it should be supported from any decent > mail client (and it is even in Linux). Sometimes some clients cannot > write in HTML but they can read it. My first and last statement to this....so why do I have problems viewing web pages with Netscape under Linux, when there is standard for HTML? Just for info: They are HTML only, no Scripts, no ActiveX oder Java.....there are engough proprietary tags from MS and AOL (Netscape). Chau V-Li |
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From: Hongli L. <h....@ch...> - 2002-05-17 09:21:02
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Ioannis Vranos wrote: >Actually its purpose is to format text. > > Exactly. So why use it when there's no formatting? >Yes but HTML is portable, so the clients should support it. :) > > But email != HTML. Email was not designed for HTML. And mailing lists are not designed to support HTML *at all*. >Well you have actually a point. But people usually send html in the list >because they have it as a default to new email, since people sometimes >communicate with formatted text. And we are bored to change from within >a menu to simple text in a new message. > >But since HTML is standardised, it should be supported from any decent >mail client (and it is even in Linux). Sometimes some clients cannot >write in HTML but they can read it. > > > Again, email != HTML. Yes, some email clients support HTML, but not all of them support HTML, or support it well. Mail servers still threat your HTML mail as text. The archive still treat it as text. |
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From: Ioannis V. <no...@ho...> - 2002-05-17 09:45:51
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Hongli Lai [mailto:h....@ch...] > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:24 PM > To: Ioannis Vranos > Cc: Dev-C++ Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > > Again, email != HTML. Yes, some email clients support HTML, > but not all > of them support HTML, or support it well. > Mail servers still threat your HTML mail as text. The archive still > treat it as text. Well PINE and mail have reached their age. Try using Kmail or something. Of course i have no intention to start now a religious war in the list, which i am afraid is imminent. :) Ioannis * Ioannis Vranos * Programming pages: http://www.noicys.cjb.net * Alternative URL: http://run.to/noicys |
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From: Hongli L. <h....@ch...> - 2002-05-17 10:01:20
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Ioannis Vranos wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hongli Lai [mailto:h....@ch...] >>Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:24 PM >>To: Ioannis Vranos >>Cc: Dev-C++ Mailing List >>Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy >> >> >>Again, email != HTML. Yes, some email clients support HTML, >>but not all >>of them support HTML, or support it well. >>Mail servers still threat your HTML mail as text. The archive still >>treat it as text. >> >> > >Well PINE and mail have reached their age. Try using Kmail or something. > >Of course i have no intention to start now a religious war in the list, >which i am afraid is imminent. :) > > HTML mail with Windows fontnames and sizes look terribly in KMail or Evolution. And GNU Mailman and SourceForge's/Geocrawler's email archives *don't* have reached their age. They are widely used mailing list software, and don't support HTML at all. |
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From: Ioannis V. <no...@ho...> - 2002-05-17 11:02:49
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Hongli Lai [mailto:h....@ch...] > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:05 PM > To: Ioannis Vranos > Cc: Dev-C++ Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy > > >Well PINE and mail have reached their age. Try using Kmail > or something. > > > >Of course i have no intention to start now a religious war > in the list, > >which i am afraid is imminent. :) > > > > > > HTML mail with Windows fontnames and sizes look terribly in KMail or > Evolution. > > And GNU Mailman and SourceForge's/Geocrawler's email archives *don't* > have reached their age. > They are widely used mailing list software, and don't support > HTML at all. :) Anyway the facts are these. Almost all mail programs support HTML. This means that HTML is widely considered normal for email. The only solution here is code converting html to text (and vice versa so as noone feels a minority :) ). Since everyone is bored to implement such a conversion filter 2 things will happen in the list. a) Everyone will keep his religion and things will go on as they were going so far. b) A religious war. :) Which can lead to nowhere since nothing significant can change. I recommend solution A and C/C++ coding. :) Ioannis * Ioannis Vranos * Programming pages: http://www.noicys.cjb.net * Alternative URL: http://run.to/noicys |
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From: <tar...@wi...> - 2002-05-17 12:05:55
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He guys, *please* stop bugging me. Continue your discussion on news.alt.trash :-) and proceed with content on this mailing list. Adib. Ioannis Vranos wrote: >>-----Original Message-----, >>From: Hongli Lai [mailto:h....@ch...] >>Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:05 PM >>To: Ioannis Vranos >>Cc: Dev-C++ Mailing List >>Subject: Re: [Dev-C++] gotoxy >> >> >>>Well PINE and mail have reached their age. Try using Kmail >> >>or something. >> >>>Of course i have no intention to start now a religious war >> >>in the list, >> >>>which i am afraid is imminent. :) >>> >>> >> >>HTML mail with Windows fontnames and sizes look terribly in KMail or >>Evolution. >> >>And GNU Mailman and SourceForge's/Geocrawler's email archives *don't* >>have reached their age. >>They are widely used mailing list software, and don't support >>HTML at all. > > > :) Anyway the facts are these. Almost all mail programs support HTML. > This means that HTML is widely considered normal for email. The only > solution here is code converting html to text (and vice versa so as > noone feels a minority :) ). Since everyone is bored to implement such a > conversion filter 2 things will happen in the list. > > a) Everyone will keep his religion and things will go on as they were > going so far. > b) A religious war. :) Which can lead to nowhere since nothing > significant can change. > > > I recommend solution A and C/C++ coding. :) > > Ioannis > > * Ioannis Vranos > * Programming pages: http://www.noicys.cjb.net > * Alternative URL: http://run.to/noicys > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply > the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: ban...@so... > _______________________________________________ > Dev-cpp-users mailing list > Dev...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dev-cpp-users > |
