Menu
▾
▴
Re: [Crawl-ref-discuss] Vampires
|
From: David P. <pl...@mi...> - 2007-11-21 23:14:26
|
> Was there a reason you posted this on development rather than discuss?
Probably, but I forgot!
> According to Ianuki, vampires are virtually unplayable.
There is some more data by now: I played a series of VpAs, all of Makhleb
(the healing). These are playable in fact. You should not dawdle (like you
shouldn't with a Spriggan) but with my last try I hit Very Full at turn
3820 or so and rarely left it. Currently, this Vampire (XL 13) looks into
a quite promising game (all of Lair, Snake and more dungeon should be
tackable).
It should be noted that the appearance of huge monsters (centaurs, ogres)
really helps. Also, this Vampire _will_ have problems once entering
branches with little or no good corpses. (See below.) And spellcasting
still is a problem. Let me just point out that the current implementation
is not _that_ unplayable.
> The main problem appears to be the lowered regeneration rate when
> hungry (regeneration halved) and especially when starving
> (regeneration zero!)
I would keep this mechanic by all means (including the 0 regeneration).
However, they should not pass out from starving. As I said before, we
should completely relabel the hunger statuses (this will make it much more
clearer how Vampires tick). Here are two suggestions (eat vs drink):
Status (e) Status (q) Regen Neg
-------------------------------------------------------------
Very Hungry Bloodless none +++
Hungry Very Thirsty slow ++[+]
Thirsty normal +[+](+)
Full fast [+](+)
Very Full Full of Blood very fast (+)
or Alive
(You gain the [+] at XL 13 and the (+) at XL 26.)
(By the way, another way to differentiate the various states is by
colouration of skin (complexion): Very Pale, Pale etc.)
> Stats
> -----
> ... and thus suggest raising Int by 2 and Dex by 1.
Fine with me, but we need to be careful. However, I think that we should
start with something too strong rather than too weak, so okay.
> Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
> Vampire 140 90 50 100 140 100 140 140 150
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
> Vampire 110 90 100 110 140 110 110 80 140 140 140 140 140
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
> Vampire 130 160 120 80 80 140 120 120 140 120 110 140 140
Fine with me, too. Although we will get asked about the asymmetry in spell
schools. Since I, however, like that no other race has these as best
aptitudes, I am in favour.
> Resistances
> -----------
> A similar effect could be achieved for some of the other resistances.
> Vampires currently start out with
> you.mutation[MUT_SLOW_METABOLISM] = 1;
> you.mutation[MUT_TORMENT_RESISTANCE] = 1;
> you.mutation[MUT_POISON_RESISTANCE] = 1;
>
> Mummy and Ghoul in addition get one level of cold resistance, and
> Mummies are also susceptible to fire. I suggest that vampires gain one
> level of cold resistance and one level of fire susceptibility when
> they reaching the Hungry state. (Maybe add a second level of cold
> resistance for starving vampires).
I would not play so much with elemental abilities. Heck, I would even
suggest to remove the poison resistance. If we add that potions of blood
heal vampires, then I would definitely link poison resistance to blood
level: granted for Thirsty and below, decreasing chances for (very) full.
The same could be applied for cold resistance, if we go for consistency
with the other undead races (as we probably should).
And I suggest that Bloodless (and below) Vampires get the full Torment
resistance; when they contain blood it becomes a chance only.
The slow metabolism does not mean much at the moment: it depends on how
you translate blood into nutrition. At the moment, it works out okay.
More on feeding below.
> Special effects
> ---------------
>
> Quoting David:
>> 2) Eating corpses should be satisfying depending on two things:
>> * blood type (humanoids > other mammals > invertebrates)
>> * amount of blood (use chunk number)
>> Currently, giant bats are filling, but hobgoblins are not; and similar
>> strange things.
>
> That would be because hobgoblins have contaminated meat (and blood).
> Generally, the nutrition gained from a corpse is equal to its mass,
> with a few modifiers for healthiness of a corpse etc.
The messages need overhaul anyway. One monster can now give you both:
"That was not really filling."
"You feel filled up quite a bit." (or similar)
> Vampires already are more stealthy when hungry and indirectly faster
> (bat form). If it hasn't been done yet vampires should be able to cast
> spells even when starving (probably with a lowered success rate).
Please let us go away from the starving. It is possible to play a
character without regeneration. (Although at the moment you'd need casting
and/or Makhleb.) It is not playable with the starving effects.
Another thing: is it in any way sensible that casting drains blood? I
mean, it does look a bit silly. (What I am asking for is a rationale of
why Vampire spellcasting drains their blood level. Throwing this out seems
impossible and should not be done.)
>> 6) Perhaps Vampires should be able to 'D'istill potions of blood from
>> corpses. This would allow them to create their own reservoir of potions
>> of blood, and use their satiation as a means. We could link this to a
>> certain XL.
>
> Fulsome distillation has an incredibly low chance (1/30 of all clean
> chunktype corpses) of creating potions of blood. What you suggest here
> is presumably a vampire-only ability. I'm rather against this, but
> maybe it's necessary.
I do not mean fulsome destillation but a Vampire-only ability at XL 6 or
so. Could be linked to Trm skill if you like it.
This would have several advantages: currently, there are potentially two
uses for a fresh corpse (eating, and saccing -- however, I almost never
sacced edible corpses to Makhleb). With the change, you could also choose
to try to 'D'istill a potion of blood from the corpse. This may not work,
but if it works, you can use that potion later. Actually, there should be
a number of potions as the result, depending on the size of the corpse.
(While I am at it, the current potion of blood only gives a ridiculously
small amount of nutrition.)
> It could be expensive, I guess, and potions could have a lower
> nutrition value than the corpse would have had. Or maybe we could
> introduce a new food type (an alternative to chunks) that would
> basically be a potion of blood but that can go bad with time (lasts
> much longer than chunks) and store the corpse type, so that
> poisonous/mutagenous/etc meat isn't magically transformed into an
> easily digestible supply of blood.
No, no. The idea is that the Vampire player will try to adapt his blood
status, depending on the situation. Carrying a couple of blood potions
would allow to change from Very Hungry (with all its benefits) to the fast
regeneration. If we believe that the vampire is both undead and alive,
depending on blood, we need to make the undead state attractive.
Currently, you try to be Very Full by all means.
> I'd also like to occasionally equip monster vampires with potions of
> blood (that they could drink when wounded), so that the player can
> gain resources that way.
This is nice. By the way, the current potion of blood does not heal. I
think it should both feed and heal.
>> 7) Vampires should try to harder to bite in melee when hungry.
>
> Definitely. There's a low to-hit bonus at the moment for biting
> attacks; that should be increased for hungry and a bit more for
> starving. Also, unarmed (biting) attacks could become more likely when
> the vampire is hungry.
The latter was what I was thinking of. The more thirsty the Vampire is,
the more of his attacks will try to be by biting. (This is thematic, but
may actually turn out bad, if we want to encourage that the player decides
on the satiation state.)
> There also was a suggestion on SF (FR 1831490) for vampires to bite
> when they successfully stab a monster. Seeing how vampires already can
> bite in combat this would translate to an increased chance of a
> successful bite attack.
Okay.
>> 8) Vampires should gain some of their undead effects only when
>> bloodless (negative 2, torment resistance for example, probably more).
>> They should keep being regenerating slowly when bloodless, more so when
>> starving. They should not be able to use bat form then bloodless.
>
> Agree on the former points, but I'm confused on the latter. Do you
> mean that they shouldn't be able to turn into bats when not hungry (or
> full)? I'm not so sure about that, seeing how bat form is so cool. I'd
> compromise on bat form being unavailable when full (a state too alive
> for bat form).
Having just used bat form to successfully escape the Abyss (which could
have been problematic in Vampire form), I step back from that proposal.
Bat form should be there for all satiation states.
(The Abyss becomes almost trivial this way, even for young Vampires.)
David
----
Let me state my view on the diet once again:
Currently: you try to become Very Full as soon as possible and to never
leave that state. This is hard early on (only small critters) and becomes
much easier later. Currently, there is probably no way of doing certain
(corpse-less) branches.
My vision: both extremes (Very Full and Bloodless) should be attractive:
one gives the very fast regeneration, the other gives the undead kit and
more stealth (!). It is easy to go from Very Full to Bloodless (just wait
:) but there should be a mechanism to purposefully go from the other way
as well. I propose drawing blood from corpses.
(The choice would very much depend on playing style: an Assassin would
want to be as full of blood as possible, whereas a Summoner might want to
go bloodless.)
|
