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[Crawl-ref-discuss] Vampires
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From: <jp...@mi...> - 2007-11-20 14:14:20
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Thanks a lot for forwarding Ianuki's comments!
Was there a reason you posted this on development rather than discuss? =20
IMHO, a discussion is precisely what we need!
According to Ianuki, vampires are virtually unplayable.
The main problem appears to be the lowered regeneration rate when =20
hungry (regeneration halved) and especially when starving =20
(regeneration zero!)
While vampires won't outright die from starvation, their lack of food =20
(or rather, blood) is still causing most deaths, especially as healing =20
potions are only half effective as well. This also means that vampires =20
will have to avoid whole branches that lack food resources (the Hells, =20
Crypt, Tomb and even Hive because of the volatile nutritional value of =20
poisonous blood).
David nicely summarized the original purpose of vampires as planned by Jarmo=
:
> It seems as if the very basic Vampires design (back from Jarmo) got
> corrupted: as I understood it, Vampires are undead who become man-like
> (i.e. acquire non-undead features) when they drink blood. In other
> words, they possess a half-state, contrasting them from the other
> undead races.
I've thought about this, and now think that following this more =20
faithfully than I did when I originally implemented them could =20
actually solve some of the above problems.
There are several aspects of the race that could be improved:
Stats
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Vampires currently get the following base stats:
Strength: 5
Intelligence: 6
Dexterity: 5
the sum of which is way below average (even exempting Demonspawn and =20
Demigod we get an average of 18.5), though higher than for Mummies and =20
Ghouls (both 13). (But Keep in mind that stats are in a later step =20
randomly increased by a total of 8.)
Ianuki is right that mythologically vampires are regarded as ancient, =20
wise and extremely strong creatures. Intelligence (wisdom) is probably =20
the most flavourful of these three for vampires, but at the same time =20
vampires are supposed to rely on Stabbing -> Dex. I don't have a =20
problem with having vampires have higher than average stats and thus =20
suggest raising Int by 2 and Dex by 1.
Aptitudes
---------
First, the current aptitudes:
Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
Vampire 140 110 50 100 140 110 140 140 150
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Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
Vampire 110 100 110 110 140 110 140 90 140 140 140 140 140
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
Vampire 130 160 140 100 100 140 120 140 140 140 140 140 140
Again quoting from Jarmo's original concept:
> Vampires progress very slowly in level, and in all skills except
> stealth, fighting, spellcasting and necromancy. As they increase in
> level they become increasingly in touch with the powers of death =20
> and can draw more power from others death.
This is what we currently have: vampires are bad at everything except
Stealth, fighting (Unarmed combat, Stabbing), Summoning, Necromancy
For all except Stealth even their good aptitudes are actually only =20
average or worse. With that in mind I propose lowering the aptitudes =20
of at least the following:
Dodging (90), T&D (100), Short Blades (90), Long Blades (100), Staves =20
(110), Unarmed Combat (80), and both Sum and Nec (80).
The following quotes are taken from Ianuki's brainstorming on the =20
classic image of vampires as defined by Stoker's "Dracula":
> In the context of Crawl, weather control sounds like Conjurations =20
> with Ice and Air. (The cloud spells, lightning and thunder, etc.) =20
> No current Crawl race has good Ice and Air aptitudes without either =20
> good Fire, Earth, or both aptitudes, too, so that's some =20
> diversification.
I like this idea and thus suggest lowering Ice and Air to at least 120 =20
and 110, respectively.
> Vampires, at the moment, can't self-transmigrate: i.e., they can't =20
> use Blade Hands, Stoneskin, Spiderform, etc. Given their batform =20
> ability and Dracula's abilities, this seems rather wrong, and I =20
> think that a good way to distinguish them from other undead is to =20
> give them this ability. I'd also bring the aptitude down to =20
> something better.
While bat form could be considered as some form of transmigration, =20
none of the other existing transmigrations really fit the vampire, so =20
that I'm rather against making exempting vampires from the restriction =20
on transmigrations. Besides, it would probably blur the flavour of the =20
bat form.
> Stoker uses "necromancy" in its antiquated meaning of "divination =20
> via the dead," as well as the modern sense that Crawl uses. I'm not =20
> sure whether or not that's a good argument for vampires to have =20
> decent divinations.
Now that's an idea. We could indeed lower Divinations to at least =20
"decent" (120), though it's not going to be their selling point.
> Besides the powers mentioned above, another power that Dracula has =20
> is mesmerism and mind control, both over animals and humans. I =20
> suggest this is a good reason to offer vampires decent aptitude with =20
> Enchantments; also, this combines well with their Stealth/Stabbing =20
> focus.
Like divinations, this could be a backseat possibility for vampires: =20
not something they excel in but also not something they're really bad =20
in.
To summarize, following all my above suggestions would make the =20
aptitudes look like this:
Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
Vampire 140 90 50 100 140 100 140 140 150
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
Vampire 110 90 100 110 140 110 110 80 140 140 140 140 140
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
Vampire 130 160 120 80 80 140 120 120 140 120 110 140 140
Does this look more playable?
Resistances
-----------
As David described above, vampires are supposed to be in a perpetual =20
half-state between living and dead that is fluently changing according =20
to their food status. Thus, a vampire that is full to the rim with =20
blood will feel almost "alive", whereas a starving vampire should have =20
resistances like the other two undead.
As an example, it has previously been suggested to tie their life =20
protection to their hunger status:
Starving | Hungry | normal | Full
+++ | ++ | + | 0
A similar effect could be achieved for some of the other resistances.
Vampires currently start out with
you.mutation[MUT_SLOW_METABOLISM] =3D 1;
you.mutation[MUT_TORMENT_RESISTANCE] =3D 1;
you.mutation[MUT_POISON_RESISTANCE] =3D 1;
Mummy and Ghoul in addition get one level of cold resistance, and =20
Mummies are also susceptible to fire. I suggest that vampires gain one =20
level of cold resistance and one level of fire susceptibility when =20
they reaching the Hungry state. (Maybe add a second level of cold =20
resistance for starving vampires).
Also, they could become saprovorous when hungry or starving which =20
would mean they get more nutrition out of contaminated corpses when =20
hungry. The same could be done for poisonous corpses.
Special effects
---------------
Quoting David:
> 2) Eating corpses should be satisfying depending on two things:
> * blood type (humanoids > other mammals > invertebrates)
> * amount of blood (use chunk number)
> Currently, giant bats are filling, but hobgoblins are not; and similar
> strange things.
That would be because hobgoblins have contaminated meat (and blood). =20
Generally, the nutrition gained from a corpse is equal to its mass, =20
with a few modifiers for healthiness of a corpse etc.
Vampires already are more stealthy when hungry and indirectly faster =20
(bat form). If it hasn't been done yet vampires should be able to cast =20
spells even when starving (probably with a lowered success rate). =20
Also, a vampire in bat form always has a hunger rate of 1, whereas =20
unburdened vampires without special equipment have 2.
> 6) Perhaps Vampires should be able to 'D'istill potions of blood from
> corpses. This would allow them to create their own reservoir of potions
> of blood, and use their satiation as a means. We could link this to a
> certain XL.
Fulsome distillation has an incredibly low chance (1/30 of all clean =20
chunktype corpses) of creating potions of blood. What you suggest here =20
is presumably a vampire-only ability. I'm rather against this, but =20
maybe it's necessary.
It could be expensive, I guess, and potions could have a lower =20
nutrition value than the corpse would have had. Or maybe we could =20
introduce a new food type (an alternative to chunks) that would =20
basically be a potion of blood but that can go bad with time (lasts =20
much longer than chunks) and store the corpse type, so that =20
poisonous/mutagenous/etc meat isn't magically transformed into an =20
easily digestible supply of blood.
I'd also like to occasionally equip monster vampires with potions of =20
blood (that they could drink when wounded), so that the player can =20
gain resources that way.
> 7) Vampires should try to harder to bite in melee when hungry.
Definitely. There's a low to-hit bonus at the moment for biting =20
attacks; that should be increased for hungry and a bit more for =20
starving. Also, unarmed (biting) attacks could become more likely when =20
the vampire is hungry.
There also was a suggestion on SF (FR 1831490) for vampires to bite =20
when they successfully stab a monster. Seeing how vampires already can =20
bite in combat this would translate to an increased chance of a =20
successful bite attack.
> 8) Vampires should gain some of their undead effects only when
> bloodless (negative 2, torment resistance for example, probably more).
> They should keep being regenerating slowly when bloodless, more so when
> starving. They should not be able to use bat form then bloodless.
Agree on the former points, but I'm confused on the latter. Do you =20
mean that they shouldn't be able to turn into bats when not hungry (or =20
full)? I'm not so sure about that, seeing how bat form is so cool. I'd =20
compromise on bat form being unavailable when full (a state too alive =20
for bat form).
Johanna
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