Re: [Boa Constr] Boa, MVC, documentation and random bable

[Riaan B. <riaan@e.co.za>]

Hi Yanko,

"Yanko, Curtis (GSP)" wrote:
> 
> I'm hearing lots of great things but let me pipe up on a few items.
> 
> What are the 'requirements' for the 1.0 release?

* All components supported
* Collection editor for list properties
* Multiple selection in the Frame Designer
* Cut/Copy/Paste in the Frame Designer
* Built in Sizer/Alignment support
* A few more property editor types

> 
> Do you have any high level design documentation for Boa?

Is the above not detailed enough? :)

> 
> Don't you think it is too easy to get lost in the details of 'which features
> do we want' when the focus should be on getting a working product to market,
> albeit with a minimal set of features.

It is, and it's a fine line to walk.
I regularly do the 'fun' details if I get stumped on the tricky stuff.

> 
> I, for one, would be happy with a usable IDE that allows me to do my GUI
> building. Code completion and such would be nice but it is the GUI builder
> that sets Boa apart. (bear with me as I drift off topic for a minute).

The key here is 'usable IDE'. The current version out there at the 
moment is a far cry from a useful IDE even if the GUI building was
complete. Another thing to take note of is that Boa is being 
developed in Boa, so if I implement some nifty time saving feature
(like tooltips so I don't have to scroll around and find the 
definition) Boa gets developed quicker. It's a gain for me, Boa and
the users.
All that said, I am focusing on core issues and old bugs at the moment.

> 
> ...I feel that there is something fundementally wrong with the way we teach
> programming languages and it shows up in our projects. We teach them like
> the english language, learning the vocabulary and syntax first. More
> abstractly, we teach the very small and build to the larger constructs.
> Programming however, needs to be taught in reverse almost. Analysis should
> be the first thing we teach! What is it we need? What does it need to do?
> What language it is implemented in isn't even up for consideration yet! Once
> we know, in detail, what we want, we can set about designing it. Do you see
> where I'm going with this?..

I used to believe in this principal quite strongly but in practice it
is very difficult to first have the perfect design and then have the
implementation integrate flawlessly with the rest of the system.
Have you heard of Extreme Programming? I'm basically following a mild
variant of it. The crux of it is that you implement first and then
design. (You also have to have extensive test cases which is the bit
I skip because it's so tricky to test GUIs, I basically test with the
mouse) I know this implement first design second sounds perverse but 
it works for me. The analysis you speak about can more effectively
be done once you've already hacked out some solution and in the
process familiarised yourself better with the problem AND it's 
integration with the rest of the system. Then you refactor the
hacks into something that looks designed :)

> 
> ...back to reality. Ok... Riaan, what little time I've been able to look at
> your code. I've been very impressed. I'm personaly struggling with MVC but
> I'll get over it. I would like to see Boa become not only a great IDE/GUI
> builder but a model of project developement as well. So... what are the
> projects goals? What are the requirements and which ones are the most
> important. What task are needed to accomplish them and who will do them.
> 
Apart from the above mentioned milestones, nothing has been 
formalised yet.

> I think I can help with documentation and some of the coding but I've been
> in a hold pattern. This is a project that is near and dear to my heart since
> I have settled on Python as my language of choice and wxPython as my GUI
> library of choice.

I applaud your choices!

> 
> I fear this has become more bable than anything but it is my way of standing
> up and being counted here.

You're counted now and will be drafted :)

-- 
Riaan                     >>> a='a=%s;a%%`a`';a%`a`
___________________________________________________
Boa Constructor - RAD GUI building IDE for wxPython
     http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net