boa-constructor-users

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[werner <wb...@fr...>]

This is going a bit OT for this list, hope others won't mind.

I copy the Boa list, so specific stuff for Boa should probably move to 
there.

On 26/11/2010 05:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:08:57 -0500, C M<cmp...@gm...>  wrote:
>> Chris,
>> What I'm wondering is:  would it be possible to round up a a few
>> people to help push Boa back into the 10s or whatever this decade is
>> called?  In terms of the controls, maybe we could take a look at what
>> it is missing, determine the procedure for adding a control in, and
>> divide the labor amongst a group of people over a period of months.  I
>> don't know how hard this is to do, but if it is a matter of a few
>> hours per control, I would be willing to try a few if I could.  Werner
>> would probably be able to apprise people of what that entails.
>>
>> I'd also like to see an option for toggling Boa's creation of widget
>> IDs, which I find unnecessary and cluttered (and instead assign them
>> all -1), and another toggling of  providing sizes to widgets if one is
>> in "sizers mode" (which wouldn't affect you, since you don't use
>> sizers).
>>
>> Beyond that, there are probably a lot of fun newer things that could
>> be included.
>> Che
> First off, can you post a link to your tutorials.  I've been using Boa
> for nearly 10 years now (yeesh, I'm old).  But I'm always up for
> learning new things.
>
> Second, without "commit" rights on the Boa Constructor repository,
> we'd HAVE to fork it in order to be able to distribute it.  I'd love
> to get the maintainer's permission to either fork it or get commit
> rights to it.
>
> I'm also willing to put in a fairly decent amount of work to add
> controls and do some general "fixing up".  I wouldn't mind working
> with others to accomplish this.  I'm in agreement that it is the best
> GUI designer/IDE out there right now, even in it dilapidated state. It
> would be nice to shine it up and reintroduce it to the world.
>
> We could take this to private email.  I also would like to know what
> Werner thinks, since he's the main contact-man on all things Boa, and
> has been for quite a few years.
Having used Boa for the last 7 or 8 years for my shareware I would also 
like to see it "restart".

I'll expand on what I think is needed for a "restart" on the Boa list 
later today.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[werner <wb...@fr...>]

Chris,

On 26/11/2010 20:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:46:55 +0100, werner<wb...@fr...>  wrote:
>> Adding new widgets can be done in two ways, either via the plug-in
>> support, see e.g. FlatNotebook-plug-in.py which I think I started and
>> Riaan fixed it up so it really worked;-) or via the "companions" support
>> see the sub-folder with the same name in Boa.
>>
>> Werner
> And I have used this technique from time to time.  I know how to add
> widgets for myself.  But why should everyone replicate my work to get
> the additional controls added to wxPython in the past 5 years or so?
Totally agree.

If you done any as plug-in's can you please post them to the Boa list as 
those anyone can just drop into the plug-in folder and they would be 
usable - o.k. they still won't make it into the next release until ....
> Would you not agree that it's better for a small group of people to
> add these controls and then release a Boa Constructor version with
> them integrated in?
>
> Frankly, I don't use Boa as a code editor or debugger.  I have other
> much more evolved code editors for that.
What are you using?  Wing IDE or?
>    What I do use Boa for is
> it's (as far as I am concerned) unmatched GUI creation ability.
>
> But it is showing its age.  Rust is creeping in.  And it's not keeping
> up with the increasing control density of wxPython.  And I don't think
> Riann (for WHATEVER reason) is willing/able to keep maintaining it.
I won't speak for Riaan (I am pretty sure he is old enough for that:-) ) 
but I am sure he cares but real live is just getting too much in the way 
for our liking - i.e. he is very very busy on protects which pay his 
food and roof etc and just doesn't have enough time to spend on Boa.

I don't see anyone beside Riaan who is totally familiar with Boa and so 
a "restart" without him does not make much sense.  I hope he will react 
to my post in reaction to this thread on the Boa list.
> I've often thought of making my own GUI creation tool, like Visual
> Studio's.  The amount of effort to get from zero to useful is beyond
> my ability to devote time to it.  However, BOA is 90% there already. I
> can spend the time helping to polish it up and bring it current with
> wxPython 2.9.
We really should take this Boa discussion onto the Boa list before 
others here get feed up with us.
> It's sad to see such a fantastic tool become, essentially,
> abandonware.
I would very much regret if Boa would be totally abandoned.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Chris S. <csp...@ci...>]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 10:33:36 +0100, werner <wb...@fr...> wrote:
>Chris,
>
>On 26/11/2010 20:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:46:55 +0100, werner<wb...@fr...>  wrote:
>>> Adding new widgets can be done in two ways, either via the plug-in
>>> support, see e.g. FlatNotebook-plug-in.py which I think I started and
>>> Riaan fixed it up so it really worked;-) or via the "companions" support
>>> see the sub-folder with the same name in Boa.
>>>
>>> Werner
>> And I have used this technique from time to time.  I know how to add
>> widgets for myself.  But why should everyone replicate my work to get
>> the additional controls added to wxPython in the past 5 years or so?
>Totally agree.
>
>If you done any as plug-in's can you please post them to the Boa list as 
>those anyone can just drop into the plug-in folder and they would be 
>usable - o.k. they still won't make it into the next release until ....

I'll have to dig into it and see what I can contribute immediately.  I
run a somewhat heavily modded Boa Constructor, so my code won't be
plug-n-play.

>> Would you not agree that it's better for a small group of people to
>> add these controls and then release a Boa Constructor version with
>> them integrated in?
>>
>> Frankly, I don't use Boa as a code editor or debugger.  I have other
>> much more evolved code editors for that.
>What are you using?  Wing IDE or?

I use Textpad. :)  Every Python editor/debugger I've tried doesn't
give me the one capability that I crave most of all...splitting the
same source code into different windows seamlessly.  Also, I like
coding on a black background with white text (easier on the eyes), and
you'd be surprised how many code editors don't allow you to change the
color scheme...

For debugging, I've never run across a debugger that is more flexible
than a print statement.

>>    What I do use Boa for is
>> it's (as far as I am concerned) unmatched GUI creation ability.
>>
>> But it is showing its age.  Rust is creeping in.  And it's not keeping
>> up with the increasing control density of wxPython.  And I don't think
>> Riann (for WHATEVER reason) is willing/able to keep maintaining it.
>I won't speak for Riaan (I am pretty sure he is old enough for that:-) ) 
>but I am sure he cares but real live is just getting too much in the way 
>for our liking - i.e. he is very very busy on protects which pay his 
>food and roof etc and just doesn't have enough time to spend on Boa.
>
>I don't see anyone beside Riaan who is totally familiar with Boa and so 
>a "restart" without him does not make much sense.  I hope he will react 
>to my post in reaction to this thread on the Boa list.

And he shouldn't have to maintain it for the rest of his life.  That
is what Open Source is for, so that the community can maintain code as
necessary when the creator can't.

However, forking the code to another site might be the only option if
we don't obtain CVS write access to the code on sourceforge.  And my
favorite source control is Mercurial, because it's in Python. :)  It
also seems to be gaining a lot of traction in the Open Source world.

>> I've often thought of making my own GUI creation tool, like Visual
>> Studio's.  The amount of effort to get from zero to useful is beyond
>> my ability to devote time to it.  However, BOA is 90% there already. I
>> can spend the time helping to polish it up and bring it current with
>> wxPython 2.9.
>We really should take this Boa discussion onto the Boa list before 
>others here get feed up with us.

Done and done.

>> It's sad to see such a fantastic tool become, essentially,
>> abandonware.
>I would very much regret if Boa would be totally abandoned.

Me too...especially since it's the best GUI designer out there.

I'm going to re-download the latest CVS and do a little less haphazard
modding of it so that I can do a proof-of-concept patch for the list.

I would love to have Riann's blessing on this.  Boa is under the GPL
license, so we could fork without him, but I consider this to be
extremely rude (which is why I've gritted my teeth for five years).
However, I'd rather be rude than to see Boa wither on the vine.

I'm going to brush up on my Boa internals and see if I can integrate
the new wx.Button ability to contain an image.  Sort of a "hello
world" of modding Boa.  I'd also like to add all of the new AGW
controls.  One of the mods I've done with my hacked-up version of Boa
is the AquaButton control.  I'd like to do it in a more controlled
manner this time.

I'd like to know, if I start doing this stuff, will others pick up the
torch as well and help me.  Due to my own busy life (running a
business, going to school, and making indie films...yes, you heard
that right :) ) this effort to revitalize Boa will quickly fall apart
if it's just me doing it.

>Werner

Chris.

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

Hi Chris,

On 27/11/2010 17:44, Chris Spencer wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 10:33:36 +0100, werner<wb...@fr...>  wrote:
>> Chris,
>>
>> On 26/11/2010 20:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:46:55 +0100, werner<wb...@fr...>   wrote:
>>>> Adding new widgets can be done in two ways, either via the plug-in
>>>> support, see e.g. FlatNotebook-plug-in.py which I think I started and
>>>> Riaan fixed it up so it really worked;-) or via the "companions" support
>>>> see the sub-folder with the same name in Boa.
>>>>
>>>> Werner
>>> And I have used this technique from time to time.  I know how to add
>>> widgets for myself.  But why should everyone replicate my work to get
>>> the additional controls added to wxPython in the past 5 years or so?
>> Totally agree.
>>
>> If you done any as plug-in's can you please post them to the Boa list as
>> those anyone can just drop into the plug-in folder and they would be
>> usable - o.k. they still won't make it into the next release until ....
>
> I'll have to dig into it and see what I can contribute immediately.  I
> run a somewhat heavily modded Boa Constructor, so my code won't be
> plug-n-play.
Could you provide patches for any stuff which is of interest for others? 
  Me and others can then test things and if they work in our setup ask 
Riaan to apply it.
>
>>> Would you not agree that it's better for a small group of people to
>>> add these controls and then release a Boa Constructor version with
>>> them integrated in?
>>>
>>> Frankly, I don't use Boa as a code editor or debugger.  I have other
>>> much more evolved code editors for that.
>> What are you using?  Wing IDE or?
>
> I use Textpad. :)  Every Python editor/debugger I've tried doesn't
> give me the one capability that I crave most of all...splitting the
> same source code into different windows seamlessly.  Also, I like
> coding on a black background with white text (easier on the eyes), and
> you'd be surprised how many code editors don't allow you to change the
> color scheme...
Have a look at WingIDE free for open source projects otherwise it costs. 
  I've looked at it a little while ago and still have the evaluation 
copy on my machine - it is the nicest/best I have seen besides Boa and 
would be high on my list if ever I switch away from Boa.

- allows black on white
- same source file can be viewed worked on in multiple windows
- has a very good debugger
- only hang up I found at the time is that its perspective save/restore 
doesn't yet work on dual monitors, i.e. I would want to move some of its 
toolboxes to my secondary monitor.
>
> For debugging, I've never run across a debugger that is more flexible
> than a print statement.
Sometimes yes, but that means you already know where your bug is.

Instead of print statements you should also look at the Python logging 
module, that way your print/debug stuff can stay in the code instead of 
having to add it/remove it etc.
>
>>>     What I do use Boa for is
>>> it's (as far as I am concerned) unmatched GUI creation ability.
>>>
>>> But it is showing its age.  Rust is creeping in.  And it's not keeping
>>> up with the increasing control density of wxPython.  And I don't think
>>> Riann (for WHATEVER reason) is willing/able to keep maintaining it.
>> I won't speak for Riaan (I am pretty sure he is old enough for that:-) )
>> but I am sure he cares but real live is just getting too much in the way
>> for our liking - i.e. he is very very busy on protects which pay his
>> food and roof etc and just doesn't have enough time to spend on Boa.
>>
>> I don't see anyone beside Riaan who is totally familiar with Boa and so
>> a "restart" without him does not make much sense.  I hope he will react
>> to my post in reaction to this thread on the Boa list.
>
> And he shouldn't have to maintain it for the rest of his life.  That
> is what Open Source is for, so that the community can maintain code as
> necessary when the creator can't.
>
> However, forking the code to another site might be the only option if
> we don't obtain CVS write access to the code on sourceforge.  And my
> favorite source control is Mercurial, because it's in Python. :)  It
> also seems to be gaining a lot of traction in the Open Source world.
>
>>> I've often thought of making my own GUI creation tool, like Visual
>>> Studio's.  The amount of effort to get from zero to useful is beyond
>>> my ability to devote time to it.  However, BOA is 90% there already. I
>>> can spend the time helping to polish it up and bring it current with
>>> wxPython 2.9.
>> We really should take this Boa discussion onto the Boa list before
>> others here get feed up with us.
>
> Done and done.
>
>>> It's sad to see such a fantastic tool become, essentially,
>>> abandonware.
>> I would very much regret if Boa would be totally abandoned.
>
> Me too...especially since it's the best GUI designer out there.
>
> I'm going to re-download the latest CVS and do a little less haphazard
> modding of it so that I can do a proof-of-concept patch for the list.
That would be great.
>
> I would love to have Riann's blessing on this.  Boa is under the GPL
> license, so we could fork without him, but I consider this to be
> extremely rude (which is why I've gritted my teeth for five years).
> However, I'd rather be rude than to see Boa wither on the vine.
Lets give Riaan (two 'a's and one 'n') some time to think about all this.
>
> I'm going to brush up on my Boa internals and see if I can integrate
> the new wx.Button ability to contain an image.  Sort of a "hello
> world" of modding Boa.  I'd also like to add all of the new AGW
> controls.  One of the mods I've done with my hacked-up version of Boa
> is the AquaButton control.  I'd like to do it in a more controlled
> manner this time.
If you do them as plug-ins then they are much easier for others to use 
and I don't think you loose any functionality.
>
> I'd like to know, if I start doing this stuff, will others pick up the
> torch as well and help me.  Due to my own busy life (running a
> business, going to school, and making indie films...yes, you heard
> that right :) ) this effort to revitalize Boa will quickly fall apart
> if it's just me doing it.
>
Yes I am willing to invest even a bit more of my time then I already do 
into Boa which is still nothing compared to what Riaan is doing.

However it would have to be with Riaan's participation as I don't think 
this will be feasible without having at least access to his know how.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Chris S. <csp...@ci...>]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 11:09:22 +0100, "Werner F. Bruhin"
<wer...@fr...> wrote:
>Could you provide patches for any stuff which is of interest for others? 
>  Me and others can then test things and if they work in our setup ask 
>Riaan to apply it.

As I've indicated, I've monkey-patched BOA so much that I'm having
problems determining what can be safely applied to a base BOA install.
My WinDiff looks like a Christmas tree... :)

>Have a look at WingIDE free for open source projects otherwise it costs. 
>  I've looked at it a little while ago and still have the evaluation 
>copy on my machine - it is the nicest/best I have seen besides Boa and 
>would be high on my list if ever I switch away from Boa.

I have looked at it.  90% of my coding is on what will become a
commercial product (though someone might have to shoot me and grab my
hard drive to get it released...I'm relentlessly unhappy with my work,
making me spend time niggling over things).  That means I would be
honor bound to pay $179 for what is an impressive code editor.

Or I can use my $20 Textpad license.  And I'm cheap.  I've been using
Textpad since the days of Windows 95 and know its every grotty corner
and hidden feature.  It's a COMFORT thing, rather than a LOGIC thing,
I know.  But there you have it...

>> For debugging, I've never run across a debugger that is more flexible
>> than a print statement.
>Sometimes yes, but that means you already know where your bug is.

Oh, I've become proficient in narrowing down where bugs are using
"print".  In fact, it has gotten to the point that when I do Visual
Studio work (either VB.NET or C#), I am loathe to use the Visual
Studio debugger.

>Instead of print statements you should also look at the Python logging 
>module, that way your print/debug stuff can stay in the code instead of 
>having to add it/remove it etc.

I use the logging module for the work I'm doing.  In the beginning it
was invaluable.  Now it just generates gigabyte-sized debug files that
I delete every few days.  I really must go through my code and put
those logging statements on some sort of hierarchical scale.  Right
now I capture exceptions to a MUCH shorter log file, and that is my
main form of debug logging these days.

>Yes I am willing to invest even a bit more of my time then I already do 
>into Boa which is still nothing compared to what Riaan is doing.

IS Riaan doing anything?  Currently?  I can't tell from his lack of
CVS commits to sourceforge and his non-presence on this list.  To me
it feels like he's moved on in his life.  AND THAT IS HIS RIGHT.  I'm
not complaining about that choice, if it has been made.  But I think
he should communicate where he is with respect to the BOA codebase and
his involvement in it.  There's been no release in 3 years, and no CVS
commits for much of that.

>However it would have to be with Riaan's participation as I don't think 
>this will be feasible without having at least access to his know how.

I agree that it's one hell of a learning curve.  It's one we might
have to travel if Riaan is completely unavailable.  For me it's
either...we have to do this or it won't get done and I'll have to move
away from BOA for my next huge investment of coding time.  Which
probably means moving away from wxPython...since there isn't another
GUI builder that doesn't make me want to put my fist through the
screen.

RE plug-ins:  Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know Boa HAD the
ability to do plug-ins.  I subsequently looked for information on them
and found exactly one page on the internet...in German...that
describes how they are used....
http://www.xing.com/net/python-programmierung/details-programmschnipsel-22580/boa-constructor-plugins-1454660/

The documentation INSIDE Boa is nonexistent on the topic of how to do
custom controls in the context of a plug-in.

Even if I travel up that learning curve (which, from that Germanic
tutorial, is simpler than what I have been doing), there are things
like the properties for dialogs (wx.DIALOG_MODAL, etc) that need to be
applied to the existing code base.  Also, I'm not sure if I'm a big
fan of forcing people to install Boa...and then have to manually
download a plug-in pack and place it in the plug-ins directory.  I'm
much enamored of the "batteries included" approach.

It's only by the grace of god and Robin's commitment to keeping
wxPython as backward compatible as humanly possible that allows Boa to
even be used.  I don't know what is going to happen when Project
Phoenix is finished.

>Werner

Chris.

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

Chris,

On 28/11/2010 17:20, Chris Spencer wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 11:09:22 +0100, "Werner F. Bruhin"
> <wer...@fr...>  wrote:
...
>
>> Yes I am willing to invest even a bit more of my time then I already do
>> into Boa which is still nothing compared to what Riaan is doing.
>
> IS Riaan doing anything?  Currently?
The short answer is yes and I don't have details nor do I think it would 
be up to me to reveal them here.

As mentioned in the other post I have been in contact with him less then 
a week ago and know that he has too much work on his plate to give us a 
very quick feed back on all this.  But I am confident that when he gets 
a moment he will respond in some form to all this.

...
>
> RE plug-ins:  Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know Boa HAD the
> ability to do plug-ins.  I subsequently looked for information on them
> and found exactly one page on the internet...in German...that
> describes how they are used....
> http://www.xing.com/net/python-programmierung/details-programmschnipsel-22580/boa-constructor-plugins-1454660/
>
> The documentation INSIDE Boa is nonexistent on the topic of how to do
> custom controls in the context of a plug-in.
There is a very short mention in "Extending Boa Constructor" within the 
Boa help but I don't recall that there is any tutorial how to do things.

Looking at some of the existing plug-in files can be helpful but it 
would definitely be good to have some tutorial on it and how to add 
widgets to the Companions.
>
> Even if I travel up that learning curve (which, from that Germanic
> tutorial, is simpler than what I have been doing), there are things
> like the properties for dialogs (wx.DIALOG_MODAL, etc) that need to be
> applied to the existing code base.
Agreed.
Also, I'm not sure if I'm a big
> fan of forcing people to install Boa...and then have to manually
> download a plug-in pack and place it in the plug-ins directory.  I'm
> much enamored of the "batteries included" approach.
>
Done as plug-in's or within the core code they should both end up in a 
formal release but in the short time the plug-in way makes it very easy 
to share.
> It's only by the grace of god and Robin's commitment to keeping
> wxPython as backward compatible as humanly possible that allows Boa to
> even be used.  I don't know what is going to happen when Project
> Phoenix is finished.
If I understand Phoenix correctly it should be backwards compatible, 
i.e. I think if Boa fully supports 2.9 I would think it will also 
support Phoenix.

Another story will be Python 3.x support - but lets make small steps 
towards a new release of Boa with at least acceptable 2.9 support.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Chris S. <csp...@ci...>]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:27:16 +0100, "Werner F. Bruhin"
<wer...@fr...> wrote:
>Chris,
>> IS Riaan doing anything?  Currently?
>The short answer is yes and I don't have details nor do I think it would 
>be up to me to reveal them here.

Sorry, the thrust of my question is unclear.  Is he doing anything
WITH BOA currently?  I'm quite willing to believe that other work
matters are keeping him away.

>> RE plug-ins:  Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know Boa HAD the
>> ability to do plug-ins.  I subsequently looked for information on them
>> and found exactly one page on the internet...in German...that
>> describes how they are used....
>> http://www.xing.com/net/python-programmierung/details-programmschnipsel-22580/boa-constructor-plugins-1454660/
>>
>> The documentation INSIDE Boa is nonexistent on the topic of how to do
>> custom controls in the context of a plug-in.
>There is a very short mention in "Extending Boa Constructor" within the 
>Boa help but I don't recall that there is any tutorial how to do things.
>
>Looking at some of the existing plug-in files can be helpful but it 
>would definitely be good to have some tutorial on it and how to add 
>widgets to the Companions.

I never looked at it.  I never saw it's power.  Why?  Because most
plug-ins are disabled on a base BOA install.  Any extensions that we
do for wxPython 2.9 controls should be active on the first startup
(and then it's up to the user to disable them if s/he's still working
with older wxPython versions).

But the more I looked into plug-ins, the more I appreciate how much
can be done with them to keep BOA current without mucking about in the
code base.  In fact...I'm such a believer that I might just download a
clean install from CVS and convert all of my monkey-patches to
plug-ins.

I've been using Boa for near 10 years now...I have NO idea how I
missed this.

>Done as plug-in's or within the core code they should both end up in a 
>formal release but in the short time the plug-in way makes it very easy 
>to share.

Agreed.

>If I understand Phoenix correctly it should be backwards compatible, 
>i.e. I think if Boa fully supports 2.9 I would think it will also 
>support Phoenix.

I don't know.  On one hand I'm hearing that it'll be very backwards
compatible.  Then I see the debates about going unicode-only.  Makes
me twitchy (not the Unicode, since all my code is in Unicode) when
developers change the build process.  It encourages them to say "well,
while we're changing THIS...let's just go over here and change these
other things..."

I still wake up in cold sweat nightmares about the Python 3.x
series...

>Another story will be Python 3.x support - but lets make small steps 
>towards a new release of Boa with at least acceptable 2.9 support.

Agreed.

>
>Werner

Chris.

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

Chris,

On 29/11/2010 00:38, Chris Spencer wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:27:16 +0100, "Werner F. Bruhin"
> <wer...@fr...>  wrote:
>> Chris,
>>> IS Riaan doing anything?  Currently?
>> The short answer is yes and I don't have details nor do I think it would
>> be up to me to reveal them here.
>
> Sorry, the thrust of my question is unclear.  Is he doing anything
> WITH BOA currently?  I'm quite willing to believe that other work
> matters are keeping him away.
It was as clear as my answer:).

The "yes" was in relation to Boa.  I.e. I know Riaan has done work on it 
but I don't know details.

That is another reason why I would hope that a switch away from CVS 
would help move things foreward, i.e. Riaan (and others) could work on a 
new branch without causing havoc to the "current" trunk.

Hopefully Riaan will find the 25th hour in a day to respond to all these 
questions/concerns/hopes .....

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

On 26/11/2010 10:47, werner wrote:
> This is going a bit OT for this list, hope others won't mind.
>
> I copy the Boa list, so specific stuff for Boa should probably move to
> there.
>
> On 26/11/2010 05:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:08:57 -0500, C M<cmp...@gm...> wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> What I'm wondering is: would it be possible to round up a a few
>>> people to help push Boa back into the 10s or whatever this decade is
>>> called? In terms of the controls, maybe we could take a look at what
>>> it is missing, determine the procedure for adding a control in, and
>>> divide the labor amongst a group of people over a period of months. I
>>> don't know how hard this is to do, but if it is a matter of a few
>>> hours per control, I would be willing to try a few if I could. Werner
>>> would probably be able to apprise people of what that entails.
>>>
>>> I'd also like to see an option for toggling Boa's creation of widget
>>> IDs, which I find unnecessary and cluttered (and instead assign them
>>> all -1), and another toggling of providing sizes to widgets if one is
>>> in "sizers mode" (which wouldn't affect you, since you don't use
>>> sizers).
>>>
>>> Beyond that, there are probably a lot of fun newer things that could
>>> be included.
>>> Che
>> First off, can you post a link to your tutorials. I've been using Boa
>> for nearly 10 years now (yeesh, I'm old). But I'm always up for
>> learning new things.
>>
>> Second, without "commit" rights on the Boa Constructor repository,
>> we'd HAVE to fork it in order to be able to distribute it. I'd love
>> to get the maintainer's permission to either fork it or get commit
>> rights to it.
>>
>> I'm also willing to put in a fairly decent amount of work to add
>> controls and do some general "fixing up". I wouldn't mind working
>> with others to accomplish this. I'm in agreement that it is the best
>> GUI designer/IDE out there right now, even in it dilapidated state. It
>> would be nice to shine it up and reintroduce it to the world.
>>
>> We could take this to private email. I also would like to know what
>> Werner thinks, since he's the main contact-man on all things Boa, and
>> has been for quite a few years.
> Having used Boa for the last 7 or 8 years for my shareware I would also
> like to see it "restart".
>
> I'll expand on what I think is needed for a "restart" on the Boa list
> later today.

I think a "restart" needs at a minimum:

- new web site, I would suggest a Sphinx (http://sphinx.pocoo.org/) 
type web site, i.e. an introduction/welcome page with links to the 
documentation which in turn also links to any tutorials and videos etc.

- regular releases, I think it needs one at least once a year better 
would be twice a year.  And this means not certainly lots of new 
features but just officially rolling out any fixes done since the last 
one, including adding in the up to date documentation for Python, 
wxPython etc.

- make it easier for others to contribute (see source code control 
below), document how things are done so maybe others then Riaan can do 
them (e.g. web site, documentation generation, release generation...).

- tutorial on adding a new widget would be really helpful


Source code control

I really believe that CVS is a big problem here, it's support for 
merges/branches etc is not good.  Windows 7 doesn't have a client which 
is officially maintained .......

I use SVN for my own stuff but frankly wasn't impressed with it's merge 
support, also it is supposed to be getting better.  Will know in a 
couple of weeks when I merge my latest stuff back to the trunk.

 From what I read/hear is that Git, Mercurial and Bazaar are doing a 
much better job in allowing to merge and resync with the base, i.e. to 
support distributed development.

Branches would allow a contributor to make his/her changes in an 
isolated way, anyone could test it (without having to merge/patch) and 
when done it should be easy to create a patch and/or merge back to the 
main trunk or future version.


I am sure there is more to it but I have to run for now.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

On 26/11/2010 11:53, Werner F. Bruhin wrote:
...
>
> Source code control
>
> I really believe that CVS is a big problem here, it's support for
> merges/branches etc is not good.  Windows 7 doesn't have a client which
> is officially maintained .......
>
> I use SVN for my own stuff but frankly wasn't impressed with it's merge
> support, also it is supposed to be getting better.  Will know in a
> couple of weeks when I merge my latest stuff back to the trunk.
>
>   From what I read/hear is that Git, Mercurial and Bazaar are doing a
> much better job in allowing to merge and resync with the base, i.e. to
> support distributed development.
>
> Branches would allow a contributor to make his/her changes in an
> isolated way, anyone could test it (without having to merge/patch) and
> when done it should be easy to create a patch and/or merge back to the
> main trunk or future version.
>
 From what I found it looks like Git would be the "front runner" for a 
change.

The following give I think a good overview on Git and how it compares to 
SVN and others.

http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/
https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitSvnComparison

When I get a moment (probably in a week or two) I will look a bit closer 
at Git and actually try it out for my own stuff.

Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] Question on opinions...

[Werner F. B. <wer...@fr...>]

On 27/11/2010 11:41, Werner F. Bruhin wrote:
> On 26/11/2010 11:53, Werner F. Bruhin wrote:
> ...
>>
>> Source code control
>>
>> I really believe that CVS is a big problem here, it's support for
>> merges/branches etc is not good.  Windows 7 doesn't have a client which
>> is officially maintained .......
>>
>> I use SVN for my own stuff but frankly wasn't impressed with it's merge
>> support, also it is supposed to be getting better.  Will know in a
>> couple of weeks when I merge my latest stuff back to the trunk.
>>
>>    From what I read/hear is that Git, Mercurial and Bazaar are doing a
>> much better job in allowing to merge and resync with the base, i.e. to
>> support distributed development.
>>
>> Branches would allow a contributor to make his/her changes in an
>> isolated way, anyone could test it (without having to merge/patch) and
>> when done it should be easy to create a patch and/or merge back to the
>> main trunk or future version.
>>
>    From what I found it looks like Git would be the "front runner" for a
> change.
>
> The following give I think a good overview on Git and how it compares to
> SVN and others.
>
> http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/
> https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitSvnComparison
>
> When I get a moment (probably in a week or two) I will look a bit closer
> at Git and actually try it out for my own stuff.
>
Here a couple more:

http://www.infoq.com/articles/dvcs-guide

http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/git-vs-mercurial/

The later one provides comparison of GIT and Mercurial, a bit outdated 
as it is over 2 years old but still interesting.

The more I read I think that either of these would be fine, they both of 
large followings and are supported on sourceforge which should hopefully 
mean that a transition would not be too difficult/time consuming.


Werner

Re: [Boa Constr] [wxPython-users] Question on opinions...

[Tim H. <zut...@gm...>]

Hi

I have been using Boa continuously for at least 8 years. It's great.

I do a lot of application development for appengine, and it actually
could be a good ide for that, along
with plugin support for doing deployments etc.....

I would like to see it move into current 10's ;-) and not wither on the vine.

Forks been mentioned a few times in the past, though nothing came of that.

One of the big advantages is boa is a lot more lightweight that say
eclipse, so I have often run it on low memory
machines running windows.  Also it doesn't have in your face project
management such as eclipse and
and a few of the other python dev environments.

Rgds

Tim

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:47 PM, werner <wb...@fr...> wrote:
> This is going a bit OT for this list, hope others won't mind.
>
> I copy the Boa list, so specific stuff for Boa should probably move to
> there.
>
> On 26/11/2010 05:43, Chris Spencer wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:08:57 -0500, C M<cmp...@gm...>  wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> What I'm wondering is:  would it be possible to round up a a few
>>> people to help push Boa back into the 10s or whatever this decade is
>>> called?  In terms of the controls, maybe we could take a look at what
>>> it is missing, determine the procedure for adding a control in, and
>>> divide the labor amongst a group of people over a period of months.  I
>>> don't know how hard this is to do, but if it is a matter of a few
>>> hours per control, I would be willing to try a few if I could.  Werner
>>> would probably be able to apprise people of what that entails.
>>>
>>> I'd also like to see an option for toggling Boa's creation of widget
>>> IDs, which I find unnecessary and cluttered (and instead assign them
>>> all -1), and another toggling of  providing sizes to widgets if one is
>>> in "sizers mode" (which wouldn't affect you, since you don't use
>>> sizers).
>>>
>>> Beyond that, there are probably a lot of fun newer things that could
>>> be included.
>>> Che
>> First off, can you post a link to your tutorials.  I've been using Boa
>> for nearly 10 years now (yeesh, I'm old).  But I'm always up for
>> learning new things.
>>
>> Second, without "commit" rights on the Boa Constructor repository,
>> we'd HAVE to fork it in order to be able to distribute it.  I'd love
>> to get the maintainer's permission to either fork it or get commit
>> rights to it.
>>
>> I'm also willing to put in a fairly decent amount of work to add
>> controls and do some general "fixing up".  I wouldn't mind working
>> with others to accomplish this.  I'm in agreement that it is the best
>> GUI designer/IDE out there right now, even in it dilapidated state. It
>> would be nice to shine it up and reintroduce it to the world.
>>
>> We could take this to private email.  I also would like to know what
>> Werner thinks, since he's the main contact-man on all things Boa, and
>> has been for quite a few years.
> Having used Boa for the last 7 or 8 years for my shareware I would also
> like to see it "restart".
>
> I'll expand on what I think is needed for a "restart" on the Boa list
> later today.
>
> Werner
>
>
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