Re: [Bluemusic-users] Blue synthbuilder
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From: Steven Y. <ste...@gm...> - 2006-04-25 06:01:25
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Hi Peiman, I've enjoyed our conversation on the list very much; I don't think it is irrelevant as it illuminates points of blue's design, but just in case, I think we are at a good point of understanding each other so perhaps should stop while we're ahead. =3D) One last thing though is that I appreciate your comment that blue does not impose an aesthetic attitude; I think that all programs do in some way, but I am trying to minimize it as much as possible so that it can be used by many people in their own way, so that they can make of the tool what they will. It is also in part for myself; I felt a long time ago it would be shortsided if I built a tool for myself which would serve my compositional interests at the time but not be able to be open to other ideas which I may become interested in later.=20 Because of this, I wanted to make the design as open as possible, so that one could use the generic objects to achieve most musical ideas, and if one should want a tool within the framework that will very specifically answer one's compositional need, one can have a custom tool built or build one for themselves. Largely I am satisfied with how blue has developed and think its design will still be free to grow to support many ways of thinking about and working with musical ideas. Thanks again for the enjoyable conversation! steven On 4/23/06, Peiman Khosravi <pei...@ao...> wrote: > Hi Steven, > > Thanks for the new release so fast. > > Thank you very much for taking your time to answer my questions about > you piece,Your answer about your aesthetic concerns has clarified my > thoughts. I agree that notation in contemporary music can be > misleading as in many cases (e.g. Xenakis, Murail, Grisey, > Ferneyhough) it does not represent the music but a set of > prescriptive rules for the performers. That is why some contemporary > music is perhaps better understood when heard acousmatically and > without reference to the score. On the other hand I think by looking > at a line of code (e.g. csound) we do not gain more knowledge of the > musical construct than we would by studying a Stockhausen score (?). > That is not to say that using code for composition is a negative > thing at all; as you mentioned, sounds must be considered regardless > of the actual physical means with which they were produced (and > organized) and that it is the end result (sonic trace) that matters. > > As I mentioned before I can hear the precision with which you have > produced and organized every detail in "etude" but mostly what > excites me about the piece is its sonic richness and spatial depth > which one does not hear in a lot of computer music pieces. I use the > term "computer music" as opposed to "electroacoustic music" . I think > what you mentioned about having precise control over parameters of > the music also explains the aesthetic difference between computer > music and electroacoustic music (although both use computers for > creating the music!). In computer music one is much more concerned > with control of pre-conceptualized musical parameters, be it time, > pitch or spectral makeup... > > Lastly I would like to say that one of the reasons why Blue is a > great program (besides what you mentioned in your replay) is because > it does not impose an aesthetic attitude on the user. It can be used > to experiment with sound design in many different ways. It can be > used for composing structures and processing sounds. > > Thanks again for you reply and apologies if this post is somehow > irrelevant to the list. > > Best > Peiman > > > On 23 Apr 2006, at 02:34, Steven Yi wrote: > > > Hi Peiman, > > > > Thanks for alerting me to this bug; it seems that I made an assumption > > in the code that worked when I first build BSB, but since adding the > > ObjectBuilder and EffectsEditor that reuses the code, is no longer > > correct. I'll be fixing that and uploading a bug fix version in an > > hour or two. > > > > For the short term however, you can use the shortcuts (which is what I > > use normally and the reason I missed that the popup was a bug!): > > > > Ctrl-X - Cut selected Objects > > Ctrl-C - Copy Selected Objects > > Delete - Delete Selected Objects > > Ctrl-Left Mouse Click - Paste Copied objects > > > > > > As for Etude, I'm very glad you enjoyed it! As for the aesthetic > > question, I don't often find myself thinking of things being written > > for "real" instruments or not, and consider sounds, regardless of > > their origin, whether sampled, synthetic, analyzed and resynthesized, > > etc., as being sounds, each with their own qualities. When I am > > working with the sounds I use, I find that the material is often > > inseparable from the qualities of the sound themselves, and the > > balancing of the material is highly dependent upon the sounds I am > > using. I think if the sounds of the piece were to exchanged with > > different sounds, the quality of the piece would be very different, > > and perhaps the experience of the work. Not that it would necessarily > > have a bad result, but just very different. > > > > I think the synthetic sounds used in Etude really have a certain > > presence and richness that are very different than the quality of > > sounds from the standard body of Western instruments found in the > > orchestra. Also, there are things being done that would be near > > impossible to get out of performers, the triangular envelope which I > > use. The organ sound would also be impossible to have as it sounds in > > the piece if performed on a live organ as it uses the triangular > > envelope and does so with notes sounded together but performed at > > different times. > > > > Another concern of mine--one that is very important to me in regards > > to blue--is that if I was to notate this in standard notation to be > > performed by live musicians on acoustic instruments, to get the timing > > exactly as I have in the piece, the notation would become rediculously > > complex, to the point that the notation required to keep everything > > accuratley in sync amongst a body of performers would service to keep > > the whole performing together but the notation would not reflect the > > musical intention of what I wanted. > > > > This is to me one of the biggest difficulties of notation and reason > > why I don't do it very often. I use notation to sketch an idea for > > single lines, or to notate harmonies, but when it comes to working > > with the ideas in time and coordinating them, the ideas are lost. For > > example, let's say the musical idea is four quarter notes. Now, in > > stretto, before the completion of the idea I'd like to introduce a > > second performance of the musical idea, to be played with the same > > character as four even quarter notes, but the entrance is to come in > > on the third eigth note of a quintuplet and the durations of the notes > > to last six quintuplets each, it is notatable with tied quintuplets > > but the performance is near impossible. The effect desired is an > > echo, slightly slower, perhaps transposed, but because of the > > difficult notation where note starts are coming in on awkard divisions > > of the beat, it would be hard pressed for a performer to read that and > > perform without some syncopation to the performance. > > > > Feldman to some degree exploits that quality in his notation, > > sometimes notating things differently that in absolute measurements > > would be exactly the same, but in performance have a different quality > > as the performer is working of a metrical pulse. A simplistic example > > of this is a 3/4 measure with dotted quarter, dotted quarter, then the > > next mesaure being 2/4 and having quarter, quarter, with a metric > > modulation of dotted quarter =3D quarter. > > > > The alternative to this is to represent the ideas as they are and > > signal entry points, similar to how Crumb notates some of his music > > with arrows showing when one line of material enters in relationship > > to another line. This allows the intention of the performed line to > > be respected, but it also introduces a degree of freedom of > > interpretation, which if that is fine within the context of the music > > is great, but if the time is delicate and requires some fair degree of > > exactness, can ruin the piece. > > > > In blue, it is easy for me to notate something as four quarter notes, > > take a copy and augment the duration slightly, transpose, and have it > > enter exactly where I feel it is effective, to listen and adjust. > > This is one of the biggest reasons I started blue in the first place, > > to allow this kind of freedom to represent lines as they are but also > > have subtle, delicate adjustments to time. > > > > Well, hope that sheds some light on some of my concerns in the piece > > as well as some of the things which are on my mind in regards to > > notation, acoustic, and electronic music, and perhaps a bit of my > > point of view which often finds its way into blue. > > > > steven > > > > > > > > > > On 4/22/06, Peiman Khosravi <pei...@ao...> wrote: > >> Dear Steven, > >> > >> I have been following the development of blue for sometime (since I > >> started learning Csound!) and am using it with great pleasure for > >> sound design... > >> > >> A few moments ago I was trying to use the synthbuilder to make a > >> simple instrument when [I think!] a strange behavior was brought to > >> my attention: I am unable to delete, cut or copy GUI objects inserted > >> on the synthbuilder environment. I right click on the object then > >> select remove but nothing happens. Am I perhaps doing something > >> wrong? > >> > >> I am on a OSX 10.4.6 laptop. > >> > >> I would very much appreciate any comments > >> > >> Many thanks > >> > >> Peiman > >> > >> P.S. I very much enjoyed hearing your recent piece "etude". Great > >> orchestral sounds and textures with a lot of depth. The only thing > >> that I found maybe a little questionable on an aesthetic level was if > >> perhaps it could have been written for real instruments (?). Although > >> there is such great attention to detail (particularly tuning) that I > >> think the use of the computer is justified. All the best :-) > >> Peiman > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------- > >> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > >> security? > >> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your > >> job easier > >> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > >> Geronimo > >> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel? > >> cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=3D121642 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bluemusic-users mailing list > >> Blu...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > security? > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your > > job easier > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > Geronimo > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=12164= 2 > > _______________________________________________ > > Bluemusic-users mailing list > > Blu...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job ea= sier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronim= o > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmdlnk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Bluemusic-users mailing list > Blu...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users > |