amforth-devel — Development discussion and user support

Re: [Amforth] Why reStructuredText

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

> Why reST?
>
> Its simple, its text based and the tool chain is at the
> right places customizable. Did you ever dealt with
> the docbook tool chain? I've spent fruitless hours with
> it. with reST I could do more with far less work.
>
> And reST seem to have a future, its not the hype of the
> day. IMHO.

For the same reasons I chose Emacs org-mode. Just like org-mode its text
is readable...

>> Which editor do you recommend for anyone wishing to contribute doc?
>
> the editor you edit your forth sources should do the job.

Confirming that Emacs has an rst-mode... thus, will give it a try :-)

Thanks, Enoch.

Re: [Amforth] Why reStructuredText

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Enoch,

> Why reST?

Its simple, its text based and the tool chain is at the
right places customizable. Did you ever dealt with
the docbook tool chain? I've spent fruitless hours with
it. with reST I could do more with far less work.

And reST seem to have a future, its not the hype of the
day. IMHO.

> Which editor do you recommend for anyone wishing to contribute doc?

the editor you edit your forth sources should do the job.

> P/S Recommend patching the following to produce well formed "true":

Thank you.

Matthias

[Amforth] Why reStructuredText

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

Why reST? 

Which editor do you recommend for anyone wishing to contribute doc?

Thanks, Enoch.

P/S Recommend patching the following to produce well formed "true":

Index: core/words/usart-tx-poll.asm
===================================================================
--- core/words/usart-tx-poll.asm	(revision 1345)
+++ core/words/usart-tx-poll.asm	(working copy)
@@ -37,6 +37,7 @@
   .dw XT_DOLITERAL
   .dw bm_USART_TXRD
   .dw XT_AND
+  .dw XT_GREATERZERO
   .dw XT_EXIT
 
 ; ( -- ) Hardware Access

Re: [Amforth] Using User Deferred Words

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi,

> Thanks Matthias for clarifying those user deferred words.  

Well, at least I tried my best ;)
I summarized the status quo under
http://amforth.sourceforge.net/recipes/deferred-words.html

> What I also found confusing is the mention of Udefer@ and Udefer! on
> <http://amforth.sourceforge.net/words/> which are not really accessible
> to the high level (i.e. to forth). 

They are factors that are used by the respective defining
words. They should never be called directly (that they are exposed
under http://amforth.sourceforge.net/words/ is simply a bug
in the tool, that generates these pages..

> 
> I guess that in old Amforth versions the programmer had to be conscious
> how to read deferred words -- Rdefer@, Udefer@, Edefer@ or simply defer@
> from the program memory.

No, deferred word were already created with the generic defer@/defer!/is
in mind. Only the defer itself is special (see recipe) It's all not
that simple..

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] lib/bitnames.frt

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> writes:
> Hi Enoch,
>
>> Isn't the following more sensible?
>> 
>>  : is_low? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
>> -    c@ invert and
>> +    c@ and 0=
>>  ;
>>  
>>  : is_high? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
>> -    c@ and
>> +    c@ and 0>
>>  ;
>> 
>> Thanks, Enoch.
>> 
>> 1) the writeup says they return "true if..." which means return -1 and
>> not a bitmask.
>
> technically only FALSE is specified: 0. TRUE is everything else. But
> I agree, that  a flag should be wellformed. Do your changes work in all
> cases?

Yes, so far :-)

According to "Forth 2012 RC1" 3.1.3.1 Flags, standard words should
return -1 or 0 only. I was surprised to find that emit? returns the
bitmask 32 rather than -1 (what caused me trouble with bitnames.frt
implementation).

Thanks, Enoch.

Re: [Amforth] Using User Deferred Words

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Thanks Matthias for clarifying those user deferred words.  

What I also found confusing is the mention of Udefer@ and Udefer! on
<http://amforth.sourceforge.net/words/> which are not really accessible
to the high level (i.e. to forth). 

I guess that in old Amforth versions the programmer had to be conscious
how to read deferred words -- Rdefer@, Udefer@, Edefer@ or simply defer@
from the program memory.

Regards, Enoch.

Re: [Amforth] lib/bitnames.frt

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Enoch,

> Isn't the following more sensible?
> 
>  : is_low? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
> -    c@ invert and
> +    c@ and 0=
>  ;
>  
>  : is_high? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
> -    c@ and
> +    c@ and 0>
>  ;
> 
> Thanks, Enoch.
> 
> 1) the writeup says they return "true if..." which means return -1 and
> not a bitmask.

technically only FALSE is specified: 0. TRUE is everything else. But
I agree, that  a flag should be wellformed. Do your changes work in all
cases?

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] Using User Deferred Words

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Enoch,

> Suppose we want to duplicate all output.
> Can anyone please show a simple working example?
> The following does not work.

It generates a endless recursion (emit calls
itself), until the whole system crashes.

You read the two recipes
http://amforth.sourceforge.net/recipes/disable-echo.html
and
http://amforth.sourceforge.net/recipes/redirect-io.html
didn't you?

> but how can I call XT_TX_POLL

XT_TX_POLL is a internal assembler label, that is
not exposed to the forth interpreter. What you probably
want to use is ' tx-poll . One of the above links has a
table, which lowlevel words are included (depends on
your settings for two WANT options).

> from myemit ??? Read it via "up@ 14 + @" ???

Well, this may work (did not check the number). I'd
strongly recommend using ' emit defer@ for that however.
That works regardless of the WANT-Settings.

You should not repeat the line

' emit defer@ tmpemit ! ' myemit is emit

command and hope that tmpemit keeps the right
information ;)

Matthias

PS: USER deferred words are besides the definition
normal deferred words. They work with DEFER@, DEFER!
and IS as specified in the forth200x spec.

[Amforth] lib/bitnames.frt

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hi,

Isn't the following more sensible?

 : is_low? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
-    c@ invert and
+    c@ and 0=
 ;
 
 : is_high? ( pinmask portaddr -- f)
-    c@ and
+    c@ and 0>
 ;

Thanks, Enoch.

1) the writeup says they return "true if..." which means return -1 and
not a bitmask.

2) true/false values are also more convenient when analyzing multiple
port inputs.

[Amforth] Using User Deferred Words

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hi,

Suppose we want to duplicate all output.
Can anyone please show a simple working example?
The following does not work.

: myemit dup emit emit ;

char a myemit
aa ok

' myemit is emit

 Amforth 5.0 r1339 freezes...

Thanks, Enoch.

P/S 

I guess there's an infinite recursion... but how can I call XT_TX_POLL
from myemit ??? Read it via "up@ 14 + @" ???

Re: [Amforth] Release 5.0 is out

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

Congrats on reaching this milestone.

Can you eliminate the following forward reference as it takes time to
confirm that this warning is benign:

.../avr/amforth/trunk/core\drivers/usart_common.asm(27): 
warning: Use of undefined or forward referenced symbol 'XT_NOOP' in .equ/.set

Thanks, Enoch.

: svnversion ." r1339" ;

Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> writes:

> Hi all,
>
> its been a long time since the last release, and a lot of work is
> done. So I decided to use some spare minutes to publish the status
> quo as a new release. Many many thanks to all, who contributed with
> questions and/or patches.
>
> The release 5.0 adds support for 1wire devices (due to work that has
> been done for the 4e4th.eu project) and improves power save strategies
> with SLEEP. Furthermore it comes with a lot more documentation on the
> website: topics like timers as well as developer tools like profiler and
> debugger. Some Arduino relevant enhancements are made. There are now
> some rudimentary compiler safety checks. Some minor bugs are fixed as well.
>
> You can download it at the usual places.
>
> Have fun with it.
>
> Matthias
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS,
> MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current
> with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft
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> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122712

[Amforth] [DE] Release 5.0 is out

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

This post is in German, because the original poster
explicitly requested this. I took the liberty to mark
the subject with [DE], so feel free to ignore
the subject ...
Erich


Lieber amforth-Freund,

On 01/04/2013 12:51 PM, Dieter Häußler wrote:
> Hallo,
> 
> Kann mir bitte mal jemand erklären, wie man das amforth auf einen atmega32
> bekommt. Aber bitte in deutsch!

Um ein amforth auf einen atmega32 zu bekommen, braucht man folgendes:
1. ein fertig assembliertes amforth, das sind zwei Dateien mit den
Endungen ".hex" und ".eep.hex", z.B. amforth.hex, amforth.eep.hex

2. einen Programmierer, also ein "Gerät", welches an einem Ende mit der
Kontroller-Platine verbunden wird (ISP) und am anderen Ende mit dem PC
(z.B. via USB). Ich verwende diesen:
Artikel-Nr.: "AT AVR ISP" bei www.reichelt.de

3. ein Programm, welches mit dem Programmer redet und dem die beiden
Dateien vorliest. Ich verwende avrdude. Der Befehl heißt dann
sudo avrdude -q -c avrispmkII -P usb -p atmega32  -e -U flash:w:amforth.hex:i -U eeprom:w:amforth.eep.hex:i

Diese Angaben gelten für Linux. Wenn Du allerdings Windows auf Deinem
PC hast, dann weiß ich nicht, wie das geht, weil ich das nicht habe.


> Englisch wird in unserer schönen deutschen
> Muttersprache schon viel zu oft gesprochen. Viele Nutzer würden solche
> Anwendungen, wenn sie verständlich in deutsch erklärt wären, nutzen aber mit dem
> fachenglisch ist es viel zu schwer und umständlich.

Diesen Teil kann ich nicht unkommentiert stehen lassen.
Es ist nun einfach auch so, daß die Mehrzahl der amforth-Nutzer
kein Deutsch spricht. Die Deutsch-Sprechenden sind eine Minderheit
auf diesem Planeten, das darf man ruhig zur Kenntnis nehmen.
Laut Wikipedia ca. 90-100 Millionen Sprecher von 7 Milliarden,
also 100/7000 oder einer von 70.


Schönen Abend,
Erich

Re: [Amforth] Release 5.0 is out

[Dieter H. <die...@fr...>]

Hallo,

Kann mir bitte mal jemand erklären, wie man das amforth auf einen atmega32
bekommt. Aber bitte in deutsch! Englisch wird in unserer schönen deutschen
Muttersprache schon viel zu oft gesprochen. Viele Nutzer würden solche
Anwendungen, wenn sie verständlich in deutsch erklärt wären, nutzen aber mit dem
fachenglisch ist es viel zu schwer und umständlich.

Nichts für ungut es ist aber nun mal so.

mit freundlichen Grüssen

Dieter Häußler

Re: [Amforth] Release 5.0 is out

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

> Have fun with it.
Sure!
Erich

[Amforth] Release 5.0 is out

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi all,

its been a long time since the last release, and a lot of work is
done. So I decided to use some spare minutes to publish the status
quo as a new release. Many many thanks to all, who contributed with
questions and/or patches.

The release 5.0 adds support for 1wire devices (due to work that has
been done for the 4e4th.eu project) and improves power save strategies
with SLEEP. Furthermore it comes with a lot more documentation on the
website: topics like timers as well as developer tools like profiler and
debugger. Some Arduino relevant enhancements are made. There are now
some rudimentary compiler safety checks. Some minor bugs are fixed as well.

You can download it at the usual places.

Have fun with it.

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hi Matthias,

First, your amforth contibution is highly respected and appreciated
here. There was not even a hint of derision!

I simply mentioned that unnecessarily I reinvented another
"bitnames.frt" and to prevent things like that from reoccuring I was
asking if the docs can be made more current and comprehensive by
enabling more people to contibute especially to the time consuming
documentation effort, through an accompanying project wiki perhaps.

Thanks, Enoch.


Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> writes:

> Hi Enoch,
>
>> Would be happier if doc is made more current and would be ready to
>> help.
>
> please forgive my ignorance, I'm not a native English speaker.
> *who* would be happier? I can tell for sure, that *I* would
> definitly be happier if (append your sentence here).
>
> No, I'm definitly not amused about such mails.
>
> Matthias
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
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Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Enoch,

> Would be happier if doc is made more current and would be ready to
> help.

please forgive my ignorance, I'm not a native English speaker.
*who* would be happier? I can tell for sure, that *I* would
definitly be happier if (append your sentence here).

No, I'm definitly not amused about such mails.

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

On 12/10/2012 09:24 PM, Matthias Trute wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Sourceforge gradually updates all projects to a new system.
> Today I migrated amforth to it. The most important change for
> now is a new subversion location. You may wish to re-checkout
> your sandboxes.
>
> You find all details at the known URL
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amforth/
> and links from there.

I found out that enabling javascript on this site
greatly changes what you see. So iff you don't see
the links to the source code repository, like I did,
consider to check your browsers configuration.

Cheers,
Erich

[Amforth] misaddressed message (was: Sourceforge Updates)

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

On 12/12/2012 04:05 PM, Enoch wrote:
> English please. Thanks, Enoch.
message went down the wrong pipe. You did not miss
anything imporant, as far as I can tell. Sorry for the noise.

Cheers,
Erich

Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

English please. Thanks, Enoch.

P/S I discovered bitnames.frt as it was mentioned in r1312 SYNONYM.
Did something similar so feel like "reinventing the wheel" :-)
Would be happier if doc is made more current and would be ready to help.

Erich Waelde <ew....@na...> writes:

> Hi Matthias,
>
> On 12/10/2012 09:24 PM, Matthias Trute wrote:
>> You find all details at the known URL
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amforth/
>> and links from there.
>
> Also, ich seh da den neuen svn Pfad nicht.
> Ich hab auch ein bißchen in "Code" rumgeklickt,
> aber irgendwie bin ich zu doof.
>
> Ich tät befürworten, daß diese Information
> noch irgendwo hin kommt, auch auf amforth.sourceforge.net
>
> Andererseits
>
> ~/Forth/amforth 33 > svn info
> Path: .
> Working Copy Root Path: /home/ew/Forth/amforth
> URL: https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth
> Repository Root: https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth
> Repository UUID: 1be2a6a9-e81f-0410-9be0-e59bd151596a
> Revision: 1312
> ...
>
> scheint immer noch zu funktionieren:
> ew@metis:~/Forth/amforth 34 > svn st -u
> ...
> M             1312   trunk/lib/bitnames.frt
> ?                    trunk/lib/lib
> ?                    trunk/core/refcard.tex
> ?                    trunk/appl/template-test
> ?                    trunk/appl/atmega32
> Status against revision:   1312
>
> das ist 'ne lokale Änderung.
>
>
> Ok, dann tät ich nur noch befürworten, daß
> auf http://amforth.sourceforge.net/ hinter
> "Karl Lunt has written an excellent User guide ..."
> sowas steht wie:
>
> To checkout the complete sources use 
> "svn co https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth"
> oder was immer der bevorzugte Pfad ist.
> Es sei denn, es gibt einen Grund, daß das da
> nicht steht :-)
>
>
> Forth-ev:
> a. das Heft hat nochmal ein neues Titelbild bekommen, alldieweil das
>    für's Ausdrucken schlecht geeignet war.
> b. die Forth Tagung 2013 findet am 19.-21.April in Garmisch statt.
>    Steht aber auch im Heft. Als Drachenhüter *muss* ich da sowieso
>    hin :-)
>
> Bis demNeXT,
> Erich
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
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Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Erich W. <ew....@na...>]

Hi Matthias,

On 12/10/2012 09:24 PM, Matthias Trute wrote:
> You find all details at the known URL
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amforth/
> and links from there.

Also, ich seh da den neuen svn Pfad nicht.
Ich hab auch ein bißchen in "Code" rumgeklickt,
aber irgendwie bin ich zu doof.

Ich tät befürworten, daß diese Information
noch irgendwo hin kommt, auch auf amforth.sourceforge.net

Andererseits

~/Forth/amforth 33 > svn info
Path: .
Working Copy Root Path: /home/ew/Forth/amforth
URL: https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth
Repository Root: https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth
Repository UUID: 1be2a6a9-e81f-0410-9be0-e59bd151596a
Revision: 1312
...

scheint immer noch zu funktionieren:
ew@metis:~/Forth/amforth 34 > svn st -u
...
M             1312   trunk/lib/bitnames.frt
?                    trunk/lib/lib
?                    trunk/core/refcard.tex
?                    trunk/appl/template-test
?                    trunk/appl/atmega32
Status against revision:   1312

das ist 'ne lokale Änderung.


Ok, dann tät ich nur noch befürworten, daß
auf http://amforth.sourceforge.net/ hinter
"Karl Lunt has written an excellent User guide ..."
sowas steht wie:

To checkout the complete sources use 
"svn co https://amforth.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/amforth"
oder was immer der bevorzugte Pfad ist.
Es sei denn, es gibt einen Grund, daß das da
nicht steht :-)


Forth-ev:
a. das Heft hat nochmal ein neues Titelbild bekommen, alldieweil das
   für's Ausdrucken schlecht geeignet war.
b. die Forth Tagung 2013 findet am 19.-21.April in Garmisch statt.
   Steht aber auch im Heft. Als Drachenhüter *muss* ich da sowieso
   hin :-)

Bis demNeXT,
Erich

Re: [Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

I think this can be done by:

svn switch svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/amforth/code/trunk

Regards, Enoch.


Matthias Trute <mt...@we...> writes:

> Hi all,
>
> Sourceforge gradually updates all projects to a new system.
> Today I migrated amforth to it. The most important change for
> now is a new subversion location. You may wish to re-checkout
> your sandboxes.
>
> You find all details at the known URL
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/amforth/
> and links from there.
>
> Enjoy the new features and blame sourceforge
> for missing ones (the svn commit history browser
> is really nice) ;)
>
> Matthias
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d

[Amforth] Sourceforge Updates

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi all,

Sourceforge gradually updates all projects to a new system.
Today I migrated amforth to it. The most important change for
now is a new subversion location. You may wish to re-checkout
your sandboxes.

You find all details at the known URL
http://sourceforge.net/projects/amforth/
and links from there.

Enjoy the new features and blame sourceforge
for missing ones (the svn commit history browser
is really nice) ;)

Matthias

[Amforth] Amforth-Shell extensions (was: SVN revision tagging)

[Matthias T. <mt...@we...>]

Hi Enoch,

> Mentioning amforth-shell.py, I think that we should teach it some day to
> substitute Forth constant-s on the fly as we upload the Flash. Let's say
> CONSTANT-s get substituted while constant-s don't. This generalization
> of the current register name substitutions would benefit guys with
> limited Flash memory.

It would be useful indeed. And another step toward a teathered
amforth as well ;)

I've just uploaded an extension that changes standard words (and
only those!) on the fly to lowercase. The code handles miXed CaSe as
well. And since we're on the PC side, there are no restrictions wrt
CPU cycles and code space ;)

+    stdwords = [
+        "IF", "ELSE", "WHILE", "UNTIL", "AGAIN", "BEGIN", "REPEAT",
.....

+            if w.upper() in self.stdwords:
+                w = w.lower()


The list of the standard words ist not yet complete (there are many
of them).

Matthias

Re: [Amforth] SVN revision tagging

[Enoch <ix...@ho...>]

Hello Matthias,

> P/S M reminds me that you did not accept my amforth-shell.py patch yet :-)
> Really? ;)

Sorry, I forgot that I patched amforth-upload.py as well since it had
some indentation errors.

Mentioning amforth-shell.py, I think that we should teach it some day to
substitute Forth constant-s on the fly as we upload the Flash. Let's say
CONSTANT-s get substituted while constant-s don't. This generalization
of the current register name substitutions would benefit guys with
limited Flash memory.

Imagine one day we can use (*): 
42 CONSTANT Answer_to_the_ultimate_question_of_life_the_universe_and_everything
without paying a Flash penalty :-)

Cheers, Enoch.

(*) Adams constant.