We are evaluating the use of Adempiere Financials and Accounting in Central Europe (Germany, Austria,...)
Basically there is a need for Accounting software for a Certificate from local Authorities resp. an Financial Auditing Company.
In Germany there is a define Certification Process, called: IDW PS 880
This is a Process defining how the Software needs to be audited.
What needs to be checked and documentated.
The Certificate itself is done by an Financial Auditor.
Basically all huge Companies e.g. PWC, KPMG ... offer these Certificates according to IDW PS880
Does anybody know wether this Certificate exists for ADempiere already ?
(I guess we would know ;-)
Would the Community be interested such a Certification ?
The Certificates and the process itself are very similar in most european Countries,
thus having on in German, makes it easy to get the same in other countries.
Does anybody have Experience in having GPL Software officially certified in this Aera.
Regardless who is paying the Auditor for certifing the Software, who would own the certificate ?
The Community ?
I assume we would need a local legal entity ?
Would it generally be possible ?
Further issues i see:
-> The audit of local (lang) documentation is a very important part of the Audit. ("Verfahrensdokumentation" in German)
-> The Certificate would be created for one specific version of the software.
-> The Certificates I've seen often say "if setup from the software vender, ... the system works according to ..."
Who is the vendor in this case ?
What do you think ?
kind regards
Chris
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I have been looking at this just recently. As far as I understand, a certified release of a software must not be altered (i.e. changes is source code, and then recompiled) to keep its certification. Thus configurations are always possible (check: is this also true for database changes, i.e. new/modified tables, new forms, as long as soource code ist not changed?).
As far as we understand, ifa german auditor wants to testify annual accounts and balance sheet, he also needs to testify correct bookkeeping (Germany: GOB, GOBS, § 316 HGB (1), § 267 Abs. 1 HGB). Thus, he whould have to audit the software himself, or rely on someone else, i.e. he needs to see the certificate according to IDW PS 880.
We have contacted a german auditor (CPA) with strong IT background to check preconditions to receive a PS 880 certificate for ADempiere. But as we understood, the accounting kernel of ADempiere is under some discussion. So maybe it would be wise to wait and see what the outcome of that discussion will bring to us.
I think it would be preferrable to have a certificate for a certain software release, rathen than certififying certain installations.
Best regards,
Jens
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I understood the same. A certified Version may not be changed.
All other things you mentioned need to be invenstigated.
Even if i change any callout i change source code and recompile it.
Maybe it would be possible to have a separated release cylce for the Accouting Engine.
Thus the "release often, release early" politics of the project would not conflict with a possible certification of the Accouting Engine. Questions here: Where does the Accouting Engine start, Where does it End ?
Yes I agree. There should be a certificate for Adempiere itself, not for certain installations.
Maybe it could be setup as a kind of sponsored development ?
As the Process for the IDW PS 880 Certificate itself is public, the Community could prepare a lot for the certification.
Do you know what the discussed issues with the accounting kernel are ?
thanks a lot
Chris
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I think there will be an irc meeting this friday on adempiere accounting, look for the accounting focus group meeting thread in this forum.
Some Caveats: It is not enough to certify accounting, you also need inventory, sales etc. for semi-finished goods, etc.; in fact everything eventually leading up to your balance sheet.
So, the effort could easily become a little bit bigger than "just" accounting. ALso, we need comprehensive (user and system) documentation.
I could provide a (german) document on SP 880 certification and upload it to the wiki. I just have to find out where to put it...
Regards,
Jens
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>Questions here: Where does the Accouting Engine start, Where does it End ?
From technical(java) point of view accounting engine start from the moment when Accounting thread invokes Doc_Xxx class. Like Doc_Invoice. Doc_Xxx is responsible to create and post proper accounting transaction for given document. At Client level developer can assign custom classes which can handle posting of accounting transactions(java interface org.compiere.model.ModelValidator). I think that if this certification require non compatible changes with other accounting standards we can a check box and activate functionality on demand.
>Yes I agree. There should be a certificate for Adempiere itself, not for certain installations.
>Maybe it could be setup as a kind of sponsored development?
I think that this is the best form for such tasks.
Kind regards,
Trifon
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hi Community,
We are evaluating the use of Adempiere Financials and Accounting in Central Europe (Germany, Austria,...)
Basically there is a need for Accounting software for a Certificate from local Authorities resp. an Financial Auditing Company.
In Germany there is a define Certification Process, called: IDW PS 880
This is a Process defining how the Software needs to be audited.
What needs to be checked and documentated.
The Certificate itself is done by an Financial Auditor.
Basically all huge Companies e.g. PWC, KPMG ... offer these Certificates according to IDW PS880
Does anybody know wether this Certificate exists for ADempiere already ?
(I guess we would know ;-)
Would the Community be interested such a Certification ?
The Certificates and the process itself are very similar in most european Countries,
thus having on in German, makes it easy to get the same in other countries.
Does anybody have Experience in having GPL Software officially certified in this Aera.
Regardless who is paying the Auditor for certifing the Software, who would own the certificate ?
The Community ?
I assume we would need a local legal entity ?
Would it generally be possible ?
Further issues i see:
-> The audit of local (lang) documentation is a very important part of the Audit. ("Verfahrensdokumentation" in German)
-> The Certificate would be created for one specific version of the software.
-> The Certificates I've seen often say "if setup from the software vender, ... the system works according to ..."
Who is the vendor in this case ?
What do you think ?
kind regards
Chris
Hello Chris,
I have been looking at this just recently. As far as I understand, a certified release of a software must not be altered (i.e. changes is source code, and then recompiled) to keep its certification. Thus configurations are always possible (check: is this also true for database changes, i.e. new/modified tables, new forms, as long as soource code ist not changed?).
As far as we understand, ifa german auditor wants to testify annual accounts and balance sheet, he also needs to testify correct bookkeeping (Germany: GOB, GOBS, § 316 HGB (1), § 267 Abs. 1 HGB). Thus, he whould have to audit the software himself, or rely on someone else, i.e. he needs to see the certificate according to IDW PS 880.
We have contacted a german auditor (CPA) with strong IT background to check preconditions to receive a PS 880 certificate for ADempiere. But as we understood, the accounting kernel of ADempiere is under some discussion. So maybe it would be wise to wait and see what the outcome of that discussion will bring to us.
I think it would be preferrable to have a certificate for a certain software release, rathen than certififying certain installations.
Best regards,
Jens
Hi Jens,
Thanks a lot for your answer.
I understood the same. A certified Version may not be changed.
All other things you mentioned need to be invenstigated.
Even if i change any callout i change source code and recompile it.
Maybe it would be possible to have a separated release cylce for the Accouting Engine.
Thus the "release often, release early" politics of the project would not conflict with a possible certification of the Accouting Engine. Questions here: Where does the Accouting Engine start, Where does it End ?
Yes I agree. There should be a certificate for Adempiere itself, not for certain installations.
Maybe it could be setup as a kind of sponsored development ?
As the Process for the IDW PS 880 Certificate itself is public, the Community could prepare a lot for the certification.
Do you know what the discussed issues with the accounting kernel are ?
thanks a lot
Chris
Hi Chris,
I think there will be an irc meeting this friday on adempiere accounting, look for the accounting focus group meeting thread in this forum.
Some Caveats: It is not enough to certify accounting, you also need inventory, sales etc. for semi-finished goods, etc.; in fact everything eventually leading up to your balance sheet.
So, the effort could easily become a little bit bigger than "just" accounting. ALso, we need comprehensive (user and system) documentation.
I could provide a (german) document on SP 880 certification and upload it to the wiki. I just have to find out where to put it...
Regards,
Jens
Hi,
Thanks.
I'm going to join the irc meeting on friday.
See you there.
Thanks
Chris
http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification
Here's a rough roadmap of the steps to certification
Some of them are big steps ;)
Please feel free to update and expand - I'll add the Accounting Kernal Certification to a list of agenda items for Friday.
Regards,
Mike
The SP 880 Documentation would be good and if an English version exists that would be great for me.
Perhaps add it in to the Accounting Kernel Page http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification
Mike
Hi Chris,
>Questions here: Where does the Accouting Engine start, Where does it End ?
From technical(java) point of view accounting engine start from the moment when Accounting thread invokes Doc_Xxx class. Like Doc_Invoice. Doc_Xxx is responsible to create and post proper accounting transaction for given document. At Client level developer can assign custom classes which can handle posting of accounting transactions(java interface org.compiere.model.ModelValidator). I think that if this certification require non compatible changes with other accounting standards we can a check box and activate functionality on demand.
>Yes I agree. There should be a certificate for Adempiere itself, not for certain installations.
>Maybe it could be setup as a kind of sponsored development?
I think that this is the best form for such tasks.
Kind regards,
Trifon