From: Thomas R. <lo...@lo...> - 2002-09-07 17:04:05
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hi! how 'big' r the chances that there will be a kind of 'make install' for Webware installing it for system-wide use? if not.. r there any special things to consider? greetings, LordVan -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/CC/E/M/MU/S d- s: a--- C++++(++) UL++++ P+ L++++ E W+++ N+++ o-- K w-- O M-- V- PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+++ t+++ 5+ X- R tv b++++ DI- D+ G++ e-->+++++ h-- !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ |
From: Stefan S. <ste...@tu...> - 2002-09-08 13:44:00
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Hello Thomas On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > how 'big' r the chances that there will be a kind of 'make install' for > Webware installing it for system-wide use? > > if not.. r there any special things to consider? Some thoughts: - Installing Webware involves calling install.py at its final location - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, there is no such established convention for Python files. - Which user should run the WebKit app server? Do you need a special user? What about multiple users each running an app server? I think there's no "best way" here, or rather, it depends on your needs. - Depending on the meaning of "system-wide use" you could also offer an easy way to set up "app work dirs" (see MakeAppWorkDir.py) with the correct permissions so that the user under which the (an?) app server later runs has write access to the log and session directories etc. - mod_webkit (on Unix) or wkcgi (on Windows) could be installed or not. - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between different Unix systems. Recently, I've put together a "port" of Webware for FreeBSD and submitted it to the FreeBSD project (for information on the "ports system" see http://www.freebsd.org/ports/index.html). This also includes an install script (and one for deinstallation) that you could use as a basis. Send me a mail if you want to get the most current version (a gzipped tar file). Stefan |
From: <ir...@ms...> - 2002-09-08 17:50:38
|
[Not cc'ing Thomas coz I assume he's on the list.] On Sun, Sep 08, 2002 at 03:43:54PM +0200, Stefan Schwarzer wrote: > Hello Thomas > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > > how 'big' r the chances that there will be a kind of 'make install' for > > Webware installing it for system-wide use? > > > > if not.. r there any special things to consider? > > Some thoughts: > > - Installing Webware involves calling install.py at its final location This and most of the other issues would be solved if we switch to distutils as we have periodically discussed. "python setup.py install" would install into the currently-running lib/pythonVERSION/site-packages/webware . If you want it installed in a different location, "python setup.py install --install-lib /opt/MyWebwareLibraries" or "python setup.py install --home /home/me" . The biggest snag we've had with this solution is that all Webware imports would have to be changed to "import webware.MODULE", or you'd use a "webware.pth" file to avoid that prefix. But avoiding the prefix means all the Webware modules would become top-level modules, and WebUtils/ would leak into the global module namespace. But maybe that name is obscure enough that it's no big deal. (It certainly seems like less of a deal now than when I previously objected to it. utils.py would be way too generic, but how many other projects are likely to use the name WebUtils/ ?) > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, > there is no such established convention for Python files. Distutils knows where it put the "python" binary, and will put Webware's binary (the AppServer startup script currently in WebKit/) in the same directory. I'm sure there's an option to override that directory, or if not, we can hack one in or put a note in the docs. > - Which user should run the WebKit app server? Do you need a special > user? What about multiple users each running an app server? I think > there's no "best way" here, or rather, it depends on your needs. The distribution maintainer should specify it, allowing the sysadmin to override. Some sites just use the same user their webserver is running as. For more security, create a dedicated user. If a user is taking responsibility for the appserver, he can run it under his own login. As a final-final default, "nobody" (on Unix systems), although that means "nobody" will own the files Webware creates (*.pyc, log, session, error), and it's not great security-wise to allow "nobody" to own files outside world-writeable areas. On the other hand, the sysadmin had the opportunity to change it and neglected to, so woe to him. > - Depending on the meaning of "system-wide use" you could also offer > an easy way to set up "app work dirs" (see MakeAppWorkDir.py) with > the correct permissions so that the user under which the (an?) app > server later runs has write access to the log and session > directories etc. If a non-privileged user installs Webware or runs MakeAppWorkDir, the files will have to be owned by him because he won't have permission to change the ownership. Presumably such a user intends to run Webware under his own account because he won't have any other choice. Perhaps he may want to change the group to some other group he's in, but I don't know if we need the complication of automating this. If the sysadmin runs MakeAppWorkDir, yeah, he will want to specify the ownership/group. > - mod_webkit (on Unix) or wkcgi (on Windows) could be installed or > not. How does WebwareExperimental handle this? > - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between > different Unix systems. -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Thomas R. <lo...@lo...> - 2002-09-08 17:52:40
|
<quote who="Stefan Schwarzer"> > Hello Thomas > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: >> how 'big' r the chances that there will be a kind of 'make install' >> for Webware installing it for system-wide use? >> >> if not.. r there any special things to consider? > > Some thoughts: > > - Installing Webware involves calling install.py at its final location i know that ;) > > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, > there is no such established convention for Python files. k(i thought about /home/httpd/WebWare > > - Which user should run the WebKit app server? Do you need a special > user? What about multiple users each running an app server? I think > there's no "best way" here, or rather, it depends on your needs. good question ... one user at the beginning or a group that can run the server.. > > - Depending on the meaning of "system-wide use" you could also offer > an easy way to set up "app work dirs" (see MakeAppWorkDir.py) with the > correct permissions so that the user under which the (an?) app server > later runs has write access to the log and session > directories etc. good idea > > - mod_webkit (on Unix) or wkcgi (on Windows) could be installed or > not. :) > > - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between > different Unix systems. > > Recently, I've put together a "port" of Webware for FreeBSD and > submitted it to the FreeBSD project (for information on the "ports > system" see http://www.freebsd.org/ports/index.html). This also > includes an install script (and one for deinstallation) that you could > use as a basis. Send me a mail if you want to get the most current > version (a gzipped tar file). can i have it? i'm trying to make an ebuild for gentoo linux(portage ;)) greetings, LordVan > > Stefan -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/CC/E/M/MU/S d- s: a--- C++++(++) UL++++ P+ L++++ E W+++ N+++ o-- K w-- O M-- V- PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+++ t+++ 5+ X- R tv b++++ DI- D+ G++ e-->+++++ h-- !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ |
From: <ir...@ms...> - 2002-09-08 18:10:27
|
On Sun, Sep 08, 2002 at 07:52:32PM +0200, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, > > there is no such established convention for Python files. > (i thought about /home/httpd/WebWare A local system might be configured like that, but it would be too jarring to spring this on an unsuspecting sysadmin because no other program installs into a special home directory by default. FTP does use a data directory /home/ftp for an anonymous "document root", but that is based on a 30-year precedent and applies only to FTP. I think Apache uses /home/htdocs as the default document root, but I've rarely seen a running Apache server configured this way. So there is a weak precedent for using /home/webkit as the default AppWorkDir. -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Stefan S. <ste...@tu...> - 2002-09-10 10:48:38
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Hi Thomas On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > <quote who="Stefan Schwarzer"> > > Some thoughts: > > > > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, > > there is no such established convention for Python files. > k(i thought about /home/httpd/WebWare I used /usr/local/share/webware, because /usr/local/share is relatively common for Python files (other than those which go into site-packages) under FreeBSD. > > - mod_webkit (on Unix) or wkcgi (on Windows) could be installed or > > not. > :) For the FreeBSD port(s) I decided to put mod_webkit into another port than Webware. The reasoning was that someone should have an option to install Webware but not mod_webkit. After all, this "someone" wouldn't need it, perhaps because he uses another web server anyway. > > - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between > > different Unix systems. > > > > Recently, I've put together a "port" of Webware for FreeBSD and > > submitted it to the FreeBSD project (for information on the "ports > > system" see http://www.freebsd.org/ports/index.html). This also > > includes an install script (and one for deinstallation) that you could > > use as a basis. Send me a mail if you want to get the most current > > version (a gzipped tar file). > can i have it? i'm trying to make an ebuild for gentoo linux(portage ;)) You can download the ports from http://www.sschwarzer.net/download/webware_port-0.4.tar.gz and http://www.sschwarzer.net/download/mod_webkit_port-0.2.tar.gz The Makefiles (at least that for Webware) has some comments at its end which may help you. :-) Stefan |
From: <ir...@ms...> - 2002-09-10 15:06:00
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On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 12:48:31PM +0200, Stefan Schwarzer wrote: > Hi Thomas > > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > > <quote who="Stefan Schwarzer"> > > > Some thoughts: > > > > > > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into /usr/local/bin, > > > there is no such established convention for Python files. > > k(i thought about /home/httpd/WebWare > > I used /usr/local/share/webware, because /usr/local/share is > relatively common for Python files (other than those which go into > site-packages) under FreeBSD. > Platform-neutral tarballs should default to /usr/local/bin , /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/share/PACKAGE, etc. This scheme is used by every other program in existence. (Old systems used lib/ for all libraries; modern systems are tending toward share/ for libraries that can be NFS mounted across platforms and lib/ for those that must not be. Python modules can be shared. If we go to a distutils approach, the modules should go wherever Python's site_packages/ is.) Platform-specific packages (.deb, .rpm, etc) should put files in /usr/bin, /etc, /usr/share/PACKAGE, or whatever the convention is for that platform. There's no universal standard for documentation, but /usr/local/doc/webware and /usr/local/doc/webware/html is reasonable. There's also no standard for data files (servlets), but /home/webware may be reasonable based on the precedent of Apache's /home/htdocs . Debian uses /var/www as the document root. -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Thomas R. <lo...@lo...> - 2002-09-10 18:07:21
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<quote who="Mike Orr"> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 12:48:31PM +0200, Stefan Schwarzer wrote: >> Hi Thomas >> >> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: >> > <quote who="Stefan Schwarzer"> >> > > Some thoughts: >> > > >> > > - While, probably, most Unix systems put binaries into >> /usr/local/bin, >> > > there is no such established convention for Python files. >> > k(i thought about /home/httpd/WebWare >> >> I used /usr/local/share/webware, because /usr/local/share is >> relatively common for Python files (other than those which go into >> site-packages) under FreeBSD. >> > > Platform-neutral tarballs should default to /usr/local/bin , > /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/share/PACKAGE, etc. This scheme is > used by every other program in existence. first time i come to hear of this...i only put programs i compile in /usr/local and all packages r in /usr .. > > (Old systems used lib/ for all libraries; modern systems are tending > toward share/ for libraries that can be NFS mounted across platforms and > lib/ for those that must not be. Python modules can be shared. > If we go to a distutils approach, the modules should go wherever > Python's site_packages/ is.) > > Platform-specific packages (.deb, .rpm, etc) should put files in > /usr/bin, /etc, /usr/share/PACKAGE, or whatever the convention is for > that platform. > > There's no universal standard for documentation, but > /usr/local/doc/webware and /usr/local/doc/webware/html is reasonable. /me votes for /usr/doc or /usr/share/doc (which is a symlink on some(most?) distributions) > > There's also no standard for data files (servlets), but > /home/webware may be reasonable based on the precedent of > Apache's /home/htdocs . Debian uses /var/www as the document root. that depends on the distribution i think.. gentoo uses /home/httpd/htdocs ;) > > -- > -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) > http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * > Espan~ol > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old > cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! > https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1&refcode1=vs3390 > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/CC/E/M/MU/S d- s: a--- C++++(++) UL++++ P+ L++++ E W+++ N+++ o-- K w-- O M-- V- PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+++ t+++ 5+ X- R tv b++++ DI- D+ G++ e-->+++++ h-- !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ |
From: <ir...@ms...> - 2002-09-10 20:45:54
|
On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 08:07:12PM +0200, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: > > Platform-neutral tarballs should default to /usr/local/bin , > > /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/share/PACKAGE, etc. This scheme is > > used by every other program in existence. > first time i come to hear of this...i only put programs i compile in > /usr/local and all packages r in /usr .. Download Python, MySQL, whatever without overriding the defaults, and it will install to /usr/local/bin, to prevent from hosing an unkwown system. The distribution developers override this to /usr/bin for their official packages, because it's their system. -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Thomas R. <lo...@lo...> - 2002-09-11 09:14:17
|
<quote who="Mike Orr"> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 08:07:12PM +0200, Thomas Raschbacher wrote: >> > Platform-neutral tarballs should default to /usr/local/bin , >> > /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/share/PACKAGE, etc. This scheme is used >> by every other program in existence. >> first time i come to hear of this...i only put programs i compile in >> /usr/local and all packages r in /usr .. > > Download Python, MySQL, whatever without overriding the defaults, and it > will install to /usr/local/bin, to prevent from hosing an unkwown > system. The distribution developers override this to /usr/bin for their > official packages, because it's their system. i know .. thats what i wanted to say(/me's creating packages for gentoo linux) > > -- > -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) > http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * > Espan~ol > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old > cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! > https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1&refcode1=vs3390 > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/CC/E/M/MU/S d- s: a--- C++++(++) UL++++ P+ L++++ E W+++ N+++ o-- K w-- O M-- V- PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+++ t+++ 5+ X- R tv b++++ DI- D+ G++ e-->+++++ h-- !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ |
From: Ray L. <mai...@es...> - 2002-09-08 19:23:30
|
On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:50:34 -0700 ir...@ms... (Mike Orr) wrote: [...] > > - Installing Webware involves calling install.py at its final location > > This and most of the other issues would be solved if we switch > to distutils as we have periodically discussed. > "python setup.py install" would install into the currently-running So is it worth trying to go for the distutil route in your opinion? I'm in the process of building an ebuild for a special app I have, and would like to incorporate an installation of Webware into it. I've been considering just creating a special install ebuild for my app ... since it is pretty special purpose, but I would prefer to create something that all Gentoo users could utilize to install Webware. I would prefer to always use mod_webkit, but that's just me. I've seen a great deal of email from many people that use, and want to continue using mod_python, and some just want to use OneShot. [...] > > - Which user should run the WebKit app server? Do you need a special > > user? What about multiple users each running an app server? I think > > there's no "best way" here, or rather, it depends on your needs. > > The distribution maintainer should specify it, allowing the sysadmin > to override. Some sites just use the same user their webserver is > running as. For more security, create a dedicated user. If a user > is taking responsibility for the appserver, he can run it under his > own login. As a final-final default, "nobody" (on Unix systems), > although that means "nobody" will own the files Webware creates > (*.pyc, log, session, error), and it's not great security-wise to allow > "nobody" to own files outside world-writeable areas. On the other > hand, the sysadmin had the opportunity to change it and neglected to, > so woe to him. How about using distutils to install Webware, and as part of the install process ( ebuild / bsd-port / deb-package? ) move / copy the default contexts to a /usr/local/WW or /usr/local/webware or /usr/local/WebWare or /usr/local/Webware directory created by MakeAppWorkDir. This would be the default contexts directory that would be used, and owned by the special user created by the ( ebuild / bsd-port / deb-package? ). [...] > > > - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between > > different Unix systems. Yes, but that's something that can get handled in the packaging ... tgz / ebuild / bsd-port / deb / rpm / open-ports / etc. There would need to be a maintainer(s) for each type of packaging. On the ebuild side I was looking to go with the cvs-eclass, and use that to just install from cvs, that way always have the latest based on a cvs-tag. In case you ever create 0.8.x style tags after the release of 0.8. This way people can get a branch that is stable, w/o having to go through a whole release process. Updating docs, and the like. Thomas: How far along are you? Are you working to make an ebuild based on release editions of Webware? or are you also looking at the cvs-eclass? Ray |
From: <ir...@ms...> - 2002-09-08 20:14:56
|
On Sun, Sep 08, 2002 at 12:21:38PM -0700, Ray Leyva wrote: > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:50:34 -0700 > ir...@ms... (Mike Orr) wrote: > > > - Installing Webware involves calling install.py at its final location > > > > This and most of the other issues would be solved if we switch > > to distutils as we have periodically discussed. > > "python setup.py install" would install into the currently-running > > So is it worth trying to go for the distutil route in your opinion? Yes. But it's a decision for the Webware team as a whole, and especially Geoff since he's the one who coordinates the installation work. Distutils is already used in WebwareExperimental, but the configuration can't just be dropped into Webware as-is because of other differences between the two implementations. > I would prefer to always use mod_webkit, but that's just me. I've > seen a great deal of email from many people that use, and want to > continue using mod_python, and some just want to use OneShot. The adapters seem like a minor issue. The installation utility has to support all of them, but that doesn't mean it has to get all of them in running condition without human intervention. It just has to put them somewhere where they can be copied into place and configured. It's not Webware's job to modify Apache's configuration file (to say nothing of AOLServer etc) or to install files in another package's directory. > How about using distutils to install Webware, and as part of the > install process ( ebuild / bsd-port / deb-package? ) move / copy the > default contexts to a /usr/local/WW or /usr/local/webware or > /usr/local/WebWare or /usr/local/Webware directory created by > MakeAppWorkDir. This would be the default contexts directory that > would be used, and owned by the special user created by the ( ebuild / > bsd-port / deb-package? ). It's occasionally been proposed to make AppWorkDirs mandatory and not allow Webware to be run with a default configuration in the installation location. I'm in favor of that, and it will be necessary if Webware is installed system-wide but users run their own AppServer instances. We should maintain the difference between installation files that are read-only except when installing, configuration/servlet files which are writable by the appadmin, and data files which are writable by the AppServer. > > > - Startup scripts can vary across platforms, including between > > > different Unix systems. > > Yes, but that's something that can get handled in the packaging ... > tgz / ebuild / bsd-port / deb / rpm / open-ports / etc. > > There would need to be a maintainer(s) for each type of packaging. That's up to each distribution. Debian has .deb maintainers that work with the upstream developers. Only in rare cases where there is a Debian developer on the upstream team would the upstream team release a .deb itself. Or in the cases where the upstream team wants to provide a .deb but Debian refuses to distribute it, as happened to KDE when there were questions about its copyright. In case it's not clear, the .deb maintainer would run "python setup.py install" and then build the .deb from the installed files. He may have to write package install scripts to postprocess the configuration after distutils is done. One thing we have to discuss is, is there anything that would be *bad* if we switch to distutils? -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, ir...@ms... (if mail problems: ms...@oz...) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol |
From: Thomas R. <lo...@lo...> - 2002-09-08 22:28:52
|
<quote who="Ray Leyva"> > On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:50:34 -0700 > ir...@ms... (Mike Orr) wrote: > > [...] > >> > Thomas: How far along are you? Are you working to make an ebuild based > on release editions of Webware? or are you also looking at the > cvs-eclass? for the moment i just wanted to create a 0.7 ebuild but looks like i should have a look at the cvs-eclass ;) greetings, LordVan > > Ray > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old > cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! > https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1&refcode1=vs3390 > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/CC/E/M/MU/S d- s: a--- C++++(++) UL++++ P+ L++++ E W+++ N+++ o-- K w-- O M-- V- PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+++ t+++ 5+ X- R tv b++++ DI- D+ G++ e-->+++++ h-- !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using SquirrelMail. "Webmail for nuts!" http://squirrelmail.org/ |