From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-20 01:23:06
|
Hi, I know there's 3 people on the discussion list besides Jay and myself. If you would like to speak up and say anything about yourself to warm the group up feel free. Also, if Jay and I are losing you because you've come in the middle of our discussion, please feel free to ask what the heck is going on. Or ask your own questions or bring up your own topics. On the other hand, I respect your right to quietly kick back and listen. -Chuck ____________________________________________________________ http://webware.sourceforge.net |
From: Dave W. <dwa...@ud...> - 2000-05-22 14:22:54
|
Hello, I'm currently using Java & JSP but I have always used Python for scripting whenever I could. Now I am intrigued by the possibility of using PSP for rapid development/prototyping and maybe deployment for lower-volume things like admin interfaces and such. Yes, I am a little lost, coming in the middle of things so It would be really great if we could keep up with your latest work through CVS. I've scanned the latest release and played a little with the servlets but the server pages code is what I'd really like to see. One thing that concerns me somewhat is the concern with optimization, not because I am a great programmer but because I happen to be reading a book that directly relates and therefore it is very much on my mind at the moment. Now the mechanism to close a block is important stuff that needs to be ironed out, we need that for a working implementation, but should you really be caching much of anything at this point? I'm glad to see that you did benchmarks on the removal of getter methods since like you said, "My ass has been saved many a time by using OOP". My request is to optimize only from 40,000 feet at this point and concentrate on features/functionality. So, back to the closing of blocks: can I close my blocks normally (pythonically) also? as in: <% for x in range(0,100): self.writeln("whatever") self.writeln("all done") %> and reserve the <% end %> for cases where I have split my code: <% for x in range(0,100): %> <p>I will not optimize my code prematurely </p> <% end %> also, I'm not sure of your goals and intentions, but just as a straw-man for discussion: <% for x in range(0,100) {%> <p>I have no "C" prejudice whatsoever</p> <% } %> - Dave Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > Hi, > > I know there's 3 people on the discussion list besides Jay and myself. If you would like to speak up and say anything about yourself to warm the group up feel free. Also, if Jay and I are losing you because you've come in the middle of our discussion, please feel free to ask what the heck is going on. > > Or ask your own questions or bring up your own topics. > > On the other hand, I respect your right to quietly kick back and listen. > > -Chuck > ____________________________________________________________ > > http://webware.sourceforge.net > > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-22 17:34:50
|
Dave Wallace wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm currently using Java & JSP but I have always used Python for scripting whenever I could. Now I am intrigued by the possibility of using PSP for rapid development/prototyping and maybe deployment for lower-volume things like admin interfaces and such. Yes, I am a little lost, coming in the middle of > things so It would be really great if we could keep up with your latest work through CVS. I've scanned the latest release and played a little with the servlets but the server pages code is what I'd really like to see. Welcome to the group, Dave! I'll be setting up CVS real soon (like hopefully today or tomorrow), but in the meantime will put up a snapshot tar file on anon ftp for the project. > One thing that concerns me somewhat is the concern with optimization, not because I am a great programmer but because I happen to be reading a book that directly relates and therefore it is very much on my mind at the moment. Now the mechanism to close a block is important stuff that needs to be ironed > out, we need that for a working implementation, but should you really be caching much of anything at this point? I'm glad to see that you did benchmarks on the removal of getter methods since like you said, "My ass has been saved many a time by using OOP". My request is to optimize only from 40,000 feet > at this point and concentrate on features/functionality. Overall I agree with you. Interface and features are the highest priority at this point in the game. However, caching can make an absolutely *huge* difference in performance and there is value in having good performance early on (faster testing, better feel, attract more users, etc.) So as I'm developing, I always keep caching in mind. I think the reward/effort ratio is worth it. I'm not interested in other low level optimizations at this point such as exposing ivars, profiling, writing in C, etc. That was Jay's idea. :-) > So, back to the closing of blocks: can I close my blocks normally (pythonically) also? as in: > > <% > for x in range(0,100): > self.writeln("whatever") > self.writeln("all done") > %> > > and reserve the <% end %> for cases where I have split my code: > > <% for x in range(0,100): %> > <p>I will not optimize my code prematurely </p> > <% end %> > > also, I'm not sure of your goals and intentions, but just as a straw-man for discussion: > > <% for x in range(0,100) {%> > <p>I have no "C" prejudice whatsoever</p> > <% } %> Jay Love should answer your block questions, as he's the primary author and I haven't put the kind of time into helping him on PSP that I should. I've been busy with WebKit (along with him) and designing MiddleKit. Since you have such a strong interest in PSP, would you be interested in helping Jay and I test it and shape it's interface? I'm also interested in what happens when there are two nested loop headers in a single <% %>. I too have considered { and }. Also, these thoughts come to mind: * I heard that there is python-preprocessing program, that I believe comes with the distribution, that allows you to use block delimiters and forgoes indentation requirements. The purpose was to make life easier for code generators. At the very least, this should be interesting to investigate with regards to PSP. * I believe some people have been using Python with Microsoft's ASP. How do they deal with indentation? -Chuck |
From: Dave W. <dwa...@ud...> - 2000-05-22 20:07:31
|
Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > Overall I agree with you. Interface and features are the highest priority at this point in the game. > > However, caching can make an absolutely *huge* difference in performance and there is value in having good performance early on (faster testing, better feel, attract more users, etc.) So as I'm developing, I always keep caching in mind. I think the reward/effort ratio is worth it. > > I'm not interested in other low level optimizations at this point such as exposing ivars, profiling, writing in C, etc. That was Jay's idea. :-) Well maybe I should eat my words anyhow, since there seems to be quite a bit of functionality in the latest snapshot. I didn't know that PSP was so far along! > > Jay Love should answer your block questions, as he's the primary author and I haven't put the kind of time into helping him on PSP that I should. I've been busy with WebKit (along with him) and designing MiddleKit. > > Since you have such a strong interest in PSP, would you be interested in helping Jay and I test it and shape it's interface? > > I'm also interested in what happens when there are two nested loop headers in a single <% %>. > > I too have considered { and }. > > Also, these thoughts come to mind: > * I heard that there is python-preprocessing program, that I believe comes with the distribution, that allows you to use block delimiters and forgoes indentation requirements. The purpose was to make life easier for code generators. At the very least, this should be interesting to investigate with regards to PSP. > * I believe some people have been using Python with Microsoft's ASP. How do they deal with indentation? I'd be glad to help out however/whenever I can although I must admit that I have limited time and skill. I can definitely do some testing and give some feedback. The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. Of course, during development it is often handy to put a bunch of code into the JSP with the intention of moving it to a bean later in the development cycle, in PSP this process would be much easier. So in that light, the lack of significant indentation in PSP should not be much of a heartache. BTW: the ListBox demo works without a hitch (Netscape 4.72, Linux/Python1.6) |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-22 20:22:22
|
Dave Wallace wrote: > I'd be glad to help out however/whenever I can although I must admit that I have limited time and skill. I can definitely do some testing and give some feedback. That would be great. > The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some > basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. Of course, during development it is often handy to put a bunch of code > into the JSP with the intention of moving it to a bean later in the development cycle, in PSP this process would be much easier. So in that light, the lack of significant indentation in PSP should not be much of a heartache. But PSP does require indentation inside <% %> (correct me if I'm wrong Jay). It's the HTML that doesn't have to be indented. I think a lot of our conclusions will be based on how it feels when we start using it more. > BTW: the ListBox demo works without a hitch (Netscape 4.72, Linux/Python1.6) Aha! I knew it was Jay's problem! :-) -Chuck |
From: Jay L. <js...@js...> - 2000-05-22 23:57:56
|
Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > > Dave Wallace wrote: > > I'd be glad to help out however/whenever I can although I must admit that I have limited time and skill. I can definitely do some testing and give some feedback. > > That would be great. > > > The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some > > basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. Of course, during development it is often handy to put a bunch of code > > into the JSP with the intention of moving it to a bean later in the development cycle, in PSP this process would be much easier. So in that light, the lack of significant indentation in PSP should not be much of a heartache. > > But PSP does require indentation inside <% %> (correct me if I'm wrong Jay). It's the HTML that doesn't have to be indented. That's right. > > I think a lot of our conclusions will be based on how it feels when we start using it more. > > > BTW: the ListBox demo works without a hitch (Netscape 4.72, Linux/Python1.6) > > Aha! I knew it was Jay's problem! :-) > Huh. > -Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Jay L. <js...@js...> - 2000-05-23 00:11:15
|
Dave Wallace wrote: > > Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > > > Overall I agree with you. Interface and features are the highest priority at this point in the game. > > > > However, caching can make an absolutely *huge* difference in performance and there is value in having good performance early on (faster testing, better feel, attract more users, etc.) So as I'm developing, I always keep caching in mind. I think the reward/effort ratio is worth it. > > > > I'm not interested in other low level optimizations at this point such as exposing ivars, profiling, writing in C, etc. That was Jay's idea. :-) > > Well maybe I should eat my words anyhow, since there seems to be quite a bit of functionality in the latest snapshot. I didn't know that PSP was so far along! > > > > > Jay Love should answer your block questions, as he's the primary author and I haven't put the kind of time into helping him on PSP that I should. I've been busy with WebKit (along with him) and designing MiddleKit. > > > > Since you have such a strong interest in PSP, would you be interested in helping Jay and I test it and shape it's interface? > > > > I'm also interested in what happens when there are two nested loop headers in a single <% %>. > > > > I too have considered { and }. > > > > Also, these thoughts come to mind: > > * I heard that there is python-preprocessing program, that I believe comes with the distribution, that allows you to use block delimiters and forgoes indentation requirements. The purpose was to make life easier for code generators. At the very least, this should be interesting to investigate with regards to PSP. > > * I believe some people have been using Python with Microsoft's ASP. How do they deal with indentation? > > I'd be glad to help out however/whenever I can although I must admit that I have limited time and skill. I can definitely do some testing and give some feedback. That'd be great. If you can just tell us what you like, don't like and would like, it'll make a better system. > > The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some > basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. We have a bean type of system now, but it's not in the main development tree yet. I'm calling it "Cans", as in Cans of spam, much to Chuck's dismay. Someone please come up with a better name. > Of course, during development it is often handy to put a bunch of code > into the JSP with the intention of moving it to a bean later in the development cycle, in PSP this process would be much easier. So in that light, the lack of significant indentation in PSP should not be much of a heartache. My thoughts exactly. Plus, it's all there and you can do whatever, it's just not as clean as straight python. (Because it's not straight python) > > BTW: the ListBox demo works without a hitch (Netscape 4.72, Linux/Python1.6) What the H*ll? > > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-23 01:32:11
|
Jay Love wrote: > > The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some > > basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. > > We have a bean type of system now, but it's not in the main development > tree yet. I'm calling it "Cans", as in Cans of spam, much to Chuck's > dismay. Someone please come up with a better name. Actually, I'm struggling more with the concept than the names. I've read the beans spec and I wasn't all that impressed. There *are* some good ideas there, although none of them are original. In terms of name, I think it's interesting that the spec immediately clarifies that a bean is a component in the common RAD sense of the term: "A Java Bean is a reusable software component that can be manipulated visually in a builder tool." Also, the 3 most important features according to the spec are: 1. properties, 2. methods, and 3. events. 1. is just recognizing that getX() and setX() methods indicate properties. No big deal there. You could write any kind of builder tool that would do that for any object. 2. methods? Gee, I thought that was OOP! Apparently, though, that's "Beans". (heavy sarcasm) 3. Events. Sure, I believe in events, but check out the mess they make of them: "We can solve this problem by interposing demultiplexing adaptors between each source and the listener, where each demultiplexing adaptor takes an incoming method call of one name and then calls a differently named method on its target object." It occurs to me that if Jay's Cans aren't centered around the above concepts, then maybe Cans aren't really Beans. On the other hand, maybe he has a grander vision for them. It's also notable that Beans have at least 2 constraints we don't: lack of multiple inheritance and interoperability with OpenDoc, OLE/COM/ActiveX, LiveConnect. In terms of architecture, I'm not convinced that "cloning" the Java Beans design is a good thing for Webware. To be fair, I have not yet researched Enterprise Beans, or beans in the context of JSP pages. I'll do that this week. At http://webware.sourceforge.net/JavaBeans.html you will find my distilled version of the spec (e.g., my notes), with my words in italics, as well as links to beans and enterprise beans. -Chuck |
From: Jay L. <js...@js...> - 2000-05-23 02:48:59
|
The bean spec has very little to do with the way most people use beans in a server side environment. Beans were originally intended , as the spec discusses, as UI components. That's not what they're generally used for. In the case of WebKit, the Cans are just classes that can be instantiated when they are needed (requested) and they will remain persistent on the server for the life of the object that they are requested for (session, application, etc.), so that subsequent requests can use the same Can. In other words, ignore the Sun bean spec. Chuck, I'll get you an example that will make all this clear. Jay Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > > Jay Love wrote: > > > The more I think about indentation, the more dangerous it seems: especially in an XML setting where tools may not always respect whitespace. It seems like indentation is enough trouble in plain text files, especially when tabs are intermixed with spaces. Besides, PSP files should contain a minimum of code, just some > > > basic display logic. When using JSP, my experience has been that it is best to put all or most of the business logic in JavaBeans. The JSP files then contain mostly a bunch of <%= whatever %> constructs with some loops for iterating over data. > > > > We have a bean type of system now, but it's not in the main development > > tree yet. I'm calling it "Cans", as in Cans of spam, much to Chuck's > > dismay. Someone please come up with a better name. > > Actually, I'm struggling more with the concept than the names. I've read the beans spec and I wasn't all that impressed. There *are* some good ideas there, although none of them are original. > > In terms of name, I think it's interesting that the spec immediately clarifies that a bean is a component in the common RAD sense of the term: > > "A Java Bean is a reusable software component that can be manipulated visually in a builder tool." > > Also, the 3 most important features according to the spec are: 1. properties, 2. methods, and 3. events. > > 1. is just recognizing that getX() and setX() methods indicate properties. No big deal there. You could write any kind of builder tool that would do that for any object. > > 2. methods? Gee, I thought that was OOP! Apparently, though, that's "Beans". (heavy sarcasm) > > 3. Events. Sure, I believe in events, but check out the mess they make of them: > > "We can solve this problem by interposing demultiplexing adaptors between each source and the listener, where each demultiplexing adaptor takes an incoming method call of one name and then calls a differently named method on its target object." > > It occurs to me that if Jay's Cans aren't centered around the above concepts, then maybe Cans aren't really Beans. On the other hand, maybe he has a grander vision for them. > > It's also notable that Beans have at least 2 constraints we don't: lack of multiple inheritance and interoperability with OpenDoc, OLE/COM/ActiveX, LiveConnect. > > In terms of architecture, I'm not convinced that "cloning" the Java Beans design is a good thing for Webware. > > To be fair, I have not yet researched Enterprise Beans, or beans in the context of JSP pages. I'll do that this week. > > At http://webware.sourceforge.net/JavaBeans.html you will find my distilled version of the spec (e.g., my notes), with my words in italics, as well as links to beans and enterprise beans. > > -Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Geoff T. <gtalvola@NameConnector.com> - 2000-05-23 14:08:14
|
Let me jump in here... I don't know anything about JavaBeans or Enterprise JavaBeans, but I know a fair amount about COM which as far as I know is the analogous concept in the Microsoft/VBScript/ASP world. COM components are where you put the complicated middle-tier logic behind your simple ASP pages. Unlike the ASP pages themselves which contain interpreted VBScript and are reportedly quite sluggish, you can write your COM components in VB or C++ and compile them for speed reasons (although you can also write COM components in VBScript or Python for that matter). That's one advantage. Also, 3rd-party vendors can release COM components without providing source code, which they obviously consider a big advantage. COM is how you access EVERYTHING external to your ASP page, including database access through the ADO component and the filesystem through the FileSystemObject component. For these uses of COM, the analogy in WebWare would be the Python "import" statement. COM has events too, but I really consider them syntactic sugar for callback functions. (They are mainly useful for responding to GUI actions in VB programs; they have less relevance in non-GUI applications.) The area where COM actually buys you some useful functionality is the ability to use remote objects via Distributed COM. Pyro is a pure-python implementation of the same idea. I'm not sure, however, if Pyro can be used over the web. In that case, XML-RPC could be an answer. In either case, it seems that we should simply leverage existing Python technology rather than reinventing the wheel. Do JavaBeans or Enterprise JavaBeans provide anything beyond what I've outlined here? -- - Geoff Talvola Parlance Corporation gtalvola@NameConnector.com |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-23 16:51:48
|
Geoff Talvola wrote: [munch] > For these uses of COM, the analogy in WebWare would be the Python "import" statement. COM has events too, but I really consider them syntactic sugar for callback functions. (They are mainly useful for responding to GUI actions in VB programs; they have less relevance in non-GUI applications.) Agreed. > The area where COM actually buys you some useful functionality is the ability to use remote objects via Distributed COM. Pyro is a pure-python implementation of the same idea. I'm not sure, however, if Pyro can be used over the web. In that case, XML-RPC could be an answer. In either case, it seems that we should simply > leverage existing Python technology rather than reinventing the wheel. For the record, COM also buys you language independence, although I can't say I'm interested in that. I'm aware of Pyro and I don't see any reason why a WebKit application couldn't make use of it. The "distribution" part has to do with the back end and nothing to do with the web browsing user right? And yes, where existing Python technology fits the bill we should either incorporate it a first class citizen or use it to speed implementation. > Do JavaBeans or Enterprise JavaBeans provide anything beyond what I've outlined here? Haven't read up on Enterprise Beans yet, but Java Beans themselves pretty much cover what you described. I don't see them as being a big deal. I think Jay made a point earlier that the manner in which they're used in the context of JSP is significant/interesting/useful. I'm still waiting for that example. ;-) -Chuck |
From: Geoff T. <gtalvola@NameConnector.com> - 2000-05-23 17:23:31
|
Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > The "distribution" part has to do with the back end and nothing to do with the web browsing user right? That's the part I was talking about -- distributing the workload on the back end. Pyro would presumably be good for this. <IRRELEVANT> I'm pretty sure you can call DCOM components over the internet. Therefore, I think that it's possible to design an IE-only web page with VBScript or ActiveX controls embedded in it that could use DCOM to have the web browser communicate with the web server. People might do this for complex intranet applications. Not that I'd ever care to try it, but maybe with JPython and XML-RPC you could do something similar and portable in Python on the browser side... </IRRELEVANT> -- - Geoff Talvola Parlance Corporation gtalvola@NameConnector.com |
From: Jay L. <js...@js...> - 2000-05-23 00:13:24
|
Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > > Dave Wallace wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I'm currently using Java & JSP but I have always used Python for scripting whenever I could. Now I am intrigued by the possibility of using PSP for rapid development/prototyping and maybe deployment for lower-volume things like admin interfaces and such. Yes, I am a little lost, coming in the middle of > > things so It would be really great if we could keep up with your latest work through CVS. I've scanned the latest release and played a little with the servlets but the server pages code is what I'd really like to see. > > Welcome to the group, Dave! I'll be setting up CVS real soon (like hopefully today or tomorrow), but in the meantime will put up a snapshot tar file on anon ftp for the project. > > > One thing that concerns me somewhat is the concern with optimization, not because I am a great programmer but because I happen to be reading a book that directly relates and therefore it is very much on my mind at the moment. Now the mechanism to close a block is important stuff that needs to be ironed > > out, we need that for a working implementation, but should you really be caching much of anything at this point? I'm glad to see that you did benchmarks on the removal of getter methods since like you said, "My ass has been saved many a time by using OOP". My request is to optimize only from 40,000 feet > > at this point and concentrate on features/functionality. > > Overall I agree with you. Interface and features are the highest priority at this point in the game. > > However, caching can make an absolutely *huge* difference in performance and there is value in having good performance early on (faster testing, better feel, attract more users, etc.) So as I'm developing, I always keep caching in mind. I think the reward/effort ratio is worth it. > > I'm not interested in other low level optimizations at this point such as exposing ivars, profiling, writing in C, etc. That was Jay's idea. :-) And I'm damn proud of it. (Since he's offering the credit, I'll take it.) Actually, the caching is more tied into concurrency and multithreading than speed at the moment. It's necessary to be able to handle multiple requests simulatneously and not force threading issues on developers. > > > So, back to the closing of blocks: can I close my blocks normally (pythonically) also? as in: > > > > <% > > for x in range(0,100): > > self.writeln("whatever") > > self.writeln("all done") > > %> Yes, of course. ;) > > > > and reserve the <% end %> for cases where I have split my code: > > > > <% for x in range(0,100): %> > > <p>I will not optimize my code prematurely </p> > > <% end %> Exactly. > > > > also, I'm not sure of your goals and intentions, but just as a straw-man for discussion: > > > > <% for x in range(0,100) {%> > > <p>I have no "C" prejudice whatsoever</p> > > <% } %> I'm just not sure this is neccessary. See below. > > Jay Love should answer your block questions, as he's the primary author and I haven't put the kind of time into helping him on PSP that I should. I've been busy with WebKit (along with him) and designing MiddleKit. > > Since you have such a strong interest in PSP, would you be interested in helping Jay and I test it and shape it's interface? > > I'm also interested in what happens when there are two nested loop headers in a single <% %>. That won't work, and I don't think it's a big deal. :) You mean: <% for i in range(5): for n i range(5):%> That won't work, as all PSP will see is the last colon, but this will: <% for i in range(5):%> <%for n i range(5):%> HTML <% end%><%end%> > > I too have considered { and }. Show me where we need it. > > Also, these thoughts come to mind: > * I heard that there is python-preprocessing program, that I believe comes with the distribution, that allows you to use block delimiters and forgoes indentation requirements. The purpose was to make life easier for code generators. At the very least, this should be interesting to investigate with regards to PSP. > * I believe some people have been using Python with Microsoft's ASP. How do they deal with indentation? Good question. > > -Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Dave W. <dwa...@ud...> - 2000-05-23 12:37:40
|
Jay Love wrote: > Actually, the caching is more tied into concurrency and multithreading > than speed at the moment. It's necessary to be able to handle multiple > requests simulatneously and not force threading issues on developers. I see this a lot better today since I started looking at the source last night. There's quite a bit there but I found most of it to be easily enough understood, well for my initial scan anyhow. I didn't see where threads are created however, is that not being done yet? > That won't work, and I don't think it's a big deal. :) > > You mean: > > <% for i in range(5): > for n i range(5):%> > > That won't work, as all PSP will see is the last colon, but this will: > > <% for i in range(5):%> > <%for n i range(5):%> > HTML > <% end%><%end%> This is a parser limitation I suppose? I can see leaving this for now to work on other things, but I thing a complete implementation should follow eventually. Probabally, implementing this will cost far less than dealing with the questions about why one cannot do this as PSP becomes more popular (and 90% of the world starts dumping PHP,ASP, & JSP in its favor) > > I too have considered { and }. > > Show me where we need it. Perhaps it could be an alternate syntax that says: "I don't care how the following code is indented, treat it as a single block." Maybe it would be easier to parse nested blocks. But as Chuck suggested the need for things like this will either surface or go away as PSP gets more usage. > > > > Also, these thoughts come to mind: > > * I heard that there is python-preprocessing program, that I believe comes with the distribution, that allows you to use block delimiters and forgoes indentation requirements. The purpose was to make life easier for code generators. At the very least, this should be interesting to investigate with regards to PSP. > > * I believe some people have been using Python with Microsoft's ASP. How do they deal with indentation? I searched my installations of 1.5.2 and 1.6 for the preprocessing system, but I could not find it. Perhaps because I have no idea what it is named or where to find it. |
From: Chuck E. <ec...@mi...> - 2000-05-23 16:44:48
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Dave Wallace wrote: > > Jay Love wrote: > > > Actually, the caching is more tied into concurrency and multithreading > > than speed at the moment. It's necessary to be able to handle multiple > > requests simulatneously and not force threading issues on developers. > > I see this a lot better today since I started looking at the source last night. There's quite a bit there but I found most of it to be easily enough understood, well for my initial scan anyhow. I didn't see where threads are created however, is that not being done yet? They are created in the AppServer which inherits Python's SocketServer. > This is a parser limitation I suppose? I can see leaving this for now to work on other things, but I thing a complete implementation should follow eventually. Probabally, implementing this will cost far less than dealing with the questions about why one cannot do this as PSP becomes more popular (and 90% of the world > starts dumping PHP,ASP, & JSP in its favor) I totally dig your attitude. :-) > > > I too have considered { and }. > > > > Show me where we need it. > > Perhaps it could be an alternate syntax that says: "I don't care how the following code is indented, treat it as a single block." Maybe it would be easier to parse nested blocks. But as Chuck suggested the need for things like this will either surface or go away as PSP gets more usage. > I searched my installations of 1.5.2 and 1.6 for the preprocessing system, but I could not find it. Perhaps because I have no idea what it is named or where to find it. Unfortunately, I am in the same boat. -Chuck |