From: John D. G. <jgw...@da...> - 2005-10-12 00:18:13
|
Hello I just got back into the TORA source after a long hiatus. I'm a professional windows developer and I also manage our companies DBA's. =20 I followed the link to Qscintilla, but I notice they have the same weird license restrictions for Windows that QT has. However, from looking at QT it looks like if our software is GPL then I can download the 'full' QT version. That's fantastic news, is that a change from earlier versions of Tora? Is there any interest in an MSVC build? I have Boundschecker and some other kernel level tools that I can use to make Tora more robust and faster, and I would assume these changes would migrate over. Nothing against MINGW but I'm used to MSVC and Boundschecker runs in it. I'd be more than happy to help volunteer to maintain the Windows side, esp if we can get an MSVC (6.0) build. A few bugs with 1.3.18 I notice: 1) the initial login is a problem, I couldn't click or tab to the 'password' line. I clicked OK, it complained, then I could enter a password. If you close the connection then reopen, same thing. It looks like changing the focus to another app and back again fixes this. 2) If I log onto an Oracle Apps 11.5.X instance with normal credentials, then click 'Tools / Server tuning' TOra locks up and never comes back. This is an issue. 3) In the SQL Editor I see a lot of 'screen scooge' - characters on top of each other, vertical lines, etc. =20 I see some other crashes and rough edges. It would take me a while to come up to speed with Qscintilla, but if there's a need I could start. =3D=3D John =3D=3D =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tor...@li...=20 > [mailto:tor...@li...] On Behalf=20 > Of Neulinger, Nathan > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:08 AM > To: TOra Dev List > Subject: [Tora-develop] qscintilla plans... >=20 > Where are we on this? I think we're seeing enough complains=20 > on the windows side that if we can get even a partially=20 > functional implementation of the qscintilla editor into tora,=20 > we'll likely get more people working on re-adding missing=20 > functionality. >=20 > I noticed also that Qt4 was released, so we'll have that to=20 > deal with soon as well... >=20 > -- Nathan |
From: John D. G. <jgw...@da...> - 2005-10-12 00:33:45
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> I'd be more than happy to help volunteer to maintain the=20 > Windows side, esp if we can get an MSVC (6.0) build. Oh - and a professional installer. I could put something simple together. Is there a need? =3D=3D John =3D=3D |
From: Don S. <do...@se...> - 2005-10-12 01:08:31
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John D. Gwinner wrote: >>I'd be more than happy to help volunteer to maintain the >>Windows side, esp if we can get an MSVC (6.0) build. > > > Oh - and a professional installer. I could put something simple > together. Is there a need? NSIS is very easy to use, I just learned it this week for a java app. Best of all, open-souce and free. http://nsis.sf.net - -- Don Seiler do...@se... Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFC87F041 Fingerprint: 0B56 50D5 E91E 4D4C 83B7 207C 76AC 5DA2 FC87 F041 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDTGH+dqxdovyH8EERAtf4AJ4jTfnFu/de1BEva0XqyIu3xAKGnACfYz9z OvA+Lhor2BV3Y7d63q6lTu0= =h9PL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Alexey D. <a.d...@se...> - 2005-10-12 08:54:24
|
Comments in order > I followed the link to Qscintilla, but I notice they have the same = weird license restrictions for Windows that QT has. However, from = looking at > QT it looks like if our software is GPL then I can download the 'full' = QT version. That's fantastic news, is that a change from earlier > versions of Tora? The TOra was compiled with Free QT3 port for Windows (not native QT3 for = Windows which is commercial). The new QT4 is also released on Windows = with dual license which now includes GPL. As for QScintilla, we agreed = over email with its owner that compiling it with GPL version of QT on = windows is fine and does not break its license. The email from him = should be published somewhere in this list. > Is there any interest in an MSVC build?=20 No. Longer answer is - not in the immediate future. There are multitude = of reasons - incompatibility of the C++ standard support (which makes it = difficult for example to compile with some 3rd party C++ libraries like = TOra on MSVC 6). The other is that it makes the use of standard = makefiles a nightmare and I'm not going to maintain the totally = different microsoft nmake makefile. With MINGW there is a possibility of = merging UNIX and Windows makes into one (this is not going to happen for = not until we sort out the outstanding bugs). But I haven't heard of any = successful attempt of using automake with MSVC compilers yet. One additional drawback is that upcoming free version of QT4 (GPL) for = Windows will only support MINGW and a building system. There might be a possibility of using qmake from QT distribution but it = makes even further deviation from unix build and not that easy to = configure to use certain checks like in standard makefiles. > I have Boundschecker and some other kernel level tools that I can use = to make Tora more robust and faster, and I=20 > would assume these changes would migrate over. Nothing against MINGW = but I'm used to MSVC and Boundschecker runs in it. > I'd be more than happy to help volunteer to maintain the Windows side, = esp if we can get an MSVC (6.0) build. No offence but I don't quite understand why would you need the kernel = tools to debug TOra - seems like a bit of an extreme to me. Whilst = Boundschecker is a nice tool but there some opensource alternatives that = can be used and it's not a "must have" tool to do debugging and TOra = development. Btw, developing with mingw does not have to be all in = command line (especially debugging - gdb can be quite user unfriendly) - = you can use Eclipse CDT environment that makes developing, compiling and = debugging (with it's GUI gdb wrapper) much easier. I was compiling my = TOra builds with Windows MINGW makefiles from there without any = problems. Also, for now I am maintaining Windows parts of TOra - but hopefully = when in the future we will move to autoconf/automake completely there = will be no need for the specific Windows maintenance ;-)) > 1) the initial login is a problem, I couldn't click or tab to the = 'password' line. I clicked OK, it complained, then I could enter a > password. If you close the connection then reopen, same thing. It = looks like changing the focus to another app and back again=20 > fixes this. If you look carefully to this - whilst password does not show cursor = once clicked you can type password in it. It looks like there is a bug = somewhere that makes mouse and keyboard focuses out of sync. If you can = look into this - it would be great. > 2) If I log onto an Oracle Apps 11.5.X instance with normal = credentials, then click 'Tools / Server tuning' TOra locks up and never = comes back. > This is an issue. I assume that you logging in Oracle DB containing the Oracle = Applications data not the Apps server itself? I have tested the new TOra = build (1.3.18 + QSCintilla changes) on pretty large database (300 tables = and loads of other objects like PL/SQL, views etc) of around 70GB and it = works alright. Anyway you are very welcome to investigate this with your = Apps database. > 3) In the SQL Editor I see a lot of 'screen scooge' - characters on = top of each other, vertical lines, etc. =20 This was one of the reasons we ported it to QScintilla - please compile = the lates TOra build if you need working one. Instructions are given in = readme.windows file. Alexey =20 |
From: John D. G. <jgw...@da...> - 2005-10-12 22:41:14
|
=20 > The TOra was compiled with Free QT3 port for Windows (not=20 > native QT3 for Windows which is commercial). =20 Right - I believe Henrik used to use the commercial QT port. I was pretty close to purchasing this to do builds, actually. > As for QScintilla, we agreed over email with its owner=20 > that compiling it with GPL version of QT on windows is fine=20 > and does not break its license.=20 Good news! > No. Longer answer is - not in the immediate future. There are=20 > multitude of reasons - incompatibility of the C++ standard=20 > support (which makes it difficult for example to compile with=20 > some 3rd party C++ libraries like TOra on MSVC 6).=20 Really? What features are incompatible, or is this a general rant? That's a common misconception about compliance, but that's subject for a whole 'nother religious war. Standards are great. Everyone should have one. :) > The other=20 > is that it makes the use of standard makefiles a nightmare=20 > and I'm not going to maintain the totally different microsoft=20 > nmake makefile.=20 I'll volunteer then :) > With MINGW there is a possibility of merging=20 > UNIX and Windows makes into one (this is not going to happen=20 > for not until we sort out the outstanding bugs). But I=20 > haven't heard of any successful attempt of using automake=20 > with MSVC compilers yet. Crystal Space uses a script in the Sourceforge checkin that builds an MSVC make file - not sure of all the details, but they maintain both a Linux make and an MSVC make on the same set of binaries. Mind you, given it's a game engine, they are going for performance, so quality of compiled code (i.e. speed) may be more important for them. > One additional drawback is that upcoming free version of QT4=20 > (GPL) for Windows will only support MINGW and a building system. What I don't understand is it's 'OK' to blow 4 digits of greenbacks on a QT3 license, but it's not OK to blow a few hundred on MSVC. I know MS is the enemy and all, but still, a buck is a buck. With Trolltech, it's not a library, it's a religion. Will the commercial version of QT allow compiles with MSVC? By the way, the command line MSVC 2003 compiler is now free: http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/ It seems to support template specialization now. =20 > There might be a possibility of using qmake from QT=20 > distribution but it makes even further deviation from unix=20 > build and not that easy to configure to use certain checks=20 > like in standard makefiles. Not sure about this myself. What checks, and what devations would Qmake make from a Unix build? > No offence but I don't quite understand why would you need=20 > the kernel tools to debug TOra - seems like a bit of an=20 > extreme to me.=20 Stability, of course. > Whilst Boundschecker is a nice tool but there=20 > some opensource alternatives that can be used and it's not a=20 > "must have" tool to do debugging and TOra development.=20 The former is interesting - do you have any good links? The latter is subjective - a number of large retail software shops *require* a clean BC run before releasing code. I've used the Intel compilers and Vtune before too, and they are pretty usefull. I currently don't have a Vtune license though. > Btw,=20 > developing with mingw does not have to be all in command line=20 > (especially debugging - gdb can be quite user unfriendly) -=20 > you can use Eclipse CDT environment that makes developing,=20 > compiling and debugging (with it's GUI gdb wrapper) much=20 > easier.=20 Common misconception - I'm not intersted in MSVC due to the easy to use GUI, but mainly because of the code quality, speed, and robustness. I used to use Watcom before this, again due to speed issues, but with MSVC6 they made some big speed improvements so I dumped Watcom. The code generation is actually pretty good now but I haven't compared it to mingw. I mentioned VC6 vice anything newer as it's pretty cheap now and a lot of people still seem to use it. For compatibility reasons my work laptop has to stay at VC6, but I have 2003 and 2005 on my home machine. > I was compiling my TOra builds with Windows MINGW=20 > makefiles from there without any problems. Ok, I'll check it out. > Also, for now I am maintaining Windows parts of TOra - but=20 > hopefully when in the future we will move to=20 > autoconf/automake completely there will be no need for the=20 > specific Windows maintenance ;-)) :) I bet there's a lot of #ifdef's then ... Maybe QT lets you get away with this. > If you look carefully to this - whilst password does not show=20 > cursor once clicked you can type password in it.=20 Hmm .. I can validate this, but this was not the issue I ran into (4 times) yesterday. The field couldn't be tabbed to nor characters entered into at all until the focus was changed back and forth to it. > > 2) If I log onto an Oracle Apps 11.5.X instance with normal=20 > credentials, then click 'Tools / Server tuning' TOra locks up=20 > and never comes back. > > This is an issue. >=20 > I assume that you logging in Oracle DB containing the Oracle=20 > Applications data not the Apps server itself?=20 Correct of course - the Apps server is just Apache and Forms. Nothing to log into with Tora. > I have tested=20 > the new TOra build (1.3.18 + QSCintilla changes) on pretty=20 > large database (300 tables and loads of other objects like=20 > PL/SQL, views etc) of around 70GB and it works alright.=20 That's nothing - a blank apps database has >10k metadata tables supposedly (I haven't counted). =20 TOAD handles it fine. 3-4 of our customers who are using TOAD currently have 700G databases. > This was one of the reasons we ported it to QScintilla -=20 > please compile the lates TOra build if you need working one.=20 > Instructions are given in readme.windows file. Ok, was working on it - this is with the current Sourceforge 'build' posted (18 I believe). =3D=3D John =3D=3D |
From: Alexey D. <a.d...@se...> - 2005-10-13 09:40:10
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=20 > Really? What features are incompatible, or is this a general rant? If we are talking about MSVC 6.0 not MSVC 7.x or 8.x - this has a = number of problems with templates, local vars in for() loops and so on. > > The other=20 > > is that it makes the use of standard makefiles a nightmare=20 > > and I'm not going to maintain the totally different microsoft=20 > > nmake makefile.=20 >=20 > I'll volunteer then :) This is not the point. The point is not to have several build systems = but one. If you will manage to cook up standard gnumake Makefile (either = using Mingw standalone make or cygwin's) that will use MSVC compiler - = you are very welcome to do this. Besides using Mingw makes everything in = TOra more standardised across platforms and, as you said it yourself, = standards are good. > > One additional drawback is that upcoming free version of QT4=20 > > (GPL) for Windows will only support MINGW and a building system. >=20 > What I don't understand is it's 'OK' to blow 4 digits of greenbacks on = a > QT3 license, but it's not OK to blow a few hundred on MSVC. I know MS > is the enemy and all, but still, a buck is a buck. I am totally missing the point of this? TOra is no longer commercial and = could not be compiled with commercial version of QT. It is fully GPLes = and as such *requires* a GPLes version of QT (the sam by the way is = applicable to the build tools although its arguable). > Will the commercial version of QT allow compiles with MSVC? Yes - but we can't and won't use it for obvious reasons (here I refer = you to the current TOra license). > By the way, the command line MSVC 2003 compiler is now free: >=20 > http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/ >=20 > It seems to support template specialization now. =20 It's been there for a while and I initially tries to make use of it with = Mingw makefiles to TOra build work with either. However the makefile was = getting significantly different and there was no way to generate = dependencies with MS compilers so I postponed it till better times and = we concentrated on other issues. > Not sure about this myself. What checks, and what devations would = Qmake make from a Unix build? Qmake is not just another make - it generates a makefile for = specifically chosen platform and chosen compiler. However because of = that it does have minimal capabilities that are basically common for all = supported compilers and platforms. > Stability, of course. What this has to do with the kernel level tools? It's not a driver we = are developing - just an application? Or am I missing something. > The former is interesting - do you have any good links? Not immediate but I have seen something like that on Sourceforge. > The latter is subjective - a number of large retail software shops = *require* a clean BC run before releasing code. Hmm hardly applicable here - we are not a retail software house. Also I = am not sure this is going to agree with TOra's GPL license. > Common misconception - I'm not intersted in MSVC due to the easy to = use GUI, but mainly because of the code quality, speed, and robustness. = I > used to use Watcom before this, again due to speed issues, but with = MSVC6 they made some big speed improvements so I dumped Watcom. The > code generation is actually pretty good now but I haven't compared it = to mingw. The misconception in this case I think is on MSVC developers side - the = GNU C++ is not like it used to be and is rapidly catching up with = production compiler suits. Besides it's the only compiler nowadays that = is fully 100% compatible with C++ standard (Boost mentioned it somewhere = on their website about half a year ago).=20 > I mentioned VC6 vice anything newer as it's pretty cheap now and a lot = of people still seem to use it. For compatibility reasons my work > laptop has to stay at VC6, but I have 2003 and 2005 on my home = machine. It does not matter how cheap it is - I don't think any of us will be = bying any tools simply because TOra is now GPLed open source project and = we'd like to keep it that way. So far only free MSVC 2003 command line = compiler tools seem to be right to use for this. Anyway - you are more than welcome to do all the work for MSVC6 (or = others) project files and maintain them - TOra is free ;-)) > :) I bet there's a lot of #ifdef's then ... Maybe QT lets you get away = with this. Nop - not at all. Just for registry stuff and some plugin functionality = that is only working on Unix. > That's nothing - a blank apps database has >10k metadata tables = supposedly (I haven't counted). =20 Well then as you seem to have all the means to investigate this issue - = you are very welcome to do so and if you can provide the fix that would = be even more wonderful. Alexey |
From: Neulinger, N. <nn...@um...> - 2005-10-13 13:47:35
|
> I am totally missing the point of this? TOra is no longer=20 > commercial and could not be compiled with commercial version=20 > of QT. It is fully GPLes and as such *requires* a GPLes=20 > version of QT (the sam by the way is applicable to the build=20 > tools although its arguable). >=20 > > Will the commercial version of QT allow compiles with MSVC? >=20 > Yes - but we can't and won't use it for obvious reasons (here=20 > I refer you to the current TOra license). This is 100% correct. The only person who could EVER build Tora using the commercial Qt was Henrik, and the only reason that was the case is that he held the entire copyright for all of the TOra sources, and hence, could release a non-gpl'd version. The copyright is now mixed, and includes contributions from numerous developers, insuring that TOra will always remain GPLd. Neither I nor Henrik nor Quest can take the current TOra sources and make a non-GPLd release from it. -- Nathan |
From: Alexey D. <a.d...@se...> - 2005-11-09 15:06:10
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> > > Whilst Boundschecker is a nice tool but there some opensource = alternatives that can be used and it's not a "must have" tool to do = debugging and TOra development.=20 > > The former is interesting - do you have any good links? > Not immediate but I have seen something like that on Sourceforge. I accidentally came across one of those again - so decided to post the = link if anybody is interested: the tool is called Valgrind and is here = http://valgrind.org/ Alexey |
From: Alexey D. <a.d...@se...> - 2005-11-09 15:13:05
|
> I accidentally came across one of those again - so decided to=20 > post the link if anybody is interested: the tool is called=20 > Valgrind and is here http://valgrind.org/ This also has nice GUI tools and profilers for Linux: http://www.open-works.co.uk/projects/valkyrie.html http://valgui.sourceforge.net/ =09 http://kcachegrind.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/show.cgi |