From: Alfredas C. <laf...@ym...> - 2010-09-18 13:05:46
|
Dear Devel, this is to initiate the discussion on the integration of the numerous RDF import/export related extensions (Halo, SparqlExtension, RDFIO, LinkedWiki). After the initial discussion with the project leaders (ex Samuel), Markus & Yaron at the SMWConFall 2010 we decided to aggregate the efforts of triplestore connector integration into the SWM. As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org to put the info on the separate extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. Best regards, Alfredas |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-18 13:23:03
|
On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: > > Dear Devel, > > this is to initiate the discussion on the integration of the numerous > RDF import/export related extensions (Halo, SparqlExtension, RDFIO, > LinkedWiki). > > After the initial discussion with the project leaders (ex Samuel), > Markus & Yaron at the SMWConFall 2010 we decided to aggregate the > efforts of triplestore connector integration into the SWM. > > As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a > page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org > <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate > extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. Done (at least a stub): http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW I think the next step will be to consolidate the features that we actually want (some will have to go or unified, I guess), especially for the #sparql parser function. Regards, Markus > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel |
From: Samuel L. <sam...@ri...> - 2010-09-18 16:36:05
|
On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: >> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a >> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org >> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate >> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. > > Done (at least a stub): > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW Great! Had interesting read on http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation Especially this section drew my attention: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you were discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): Wikipage wrote: > ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL queries and that returns SMW query result objects For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and there also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, which has RDF export turned on by default, etc.) Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further below: > Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) Anyway, so next thing: > Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect to different RDF stores supporting these standards Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require ability to run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store AFAIK, etc)? Regards // Samuel > I think the next step will be to consolidate the features that we > actually want (some will have to go or unified, I guess), especially for > the #sparql parser function. > > Regards, > > Markus -- Samuel Lampa --------------------------------------- Student @ Uppsala University Freelance dev @ RIL Partner AB --------------------------------------- E-mail: samuel.lampa[at]rilpartner.se Blog: http://saml.rilspace.org WWW: http://www.rilpartner.se --------------------------------------- |
From: Alfredas C. <laf...@ym...> - 2010-09-19 10:00:29
|
Just one comment. Could we perhaps copy the discussion emails to the discussion page of the http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW - so its easier to aggregate all the ideas.... A ________________________________ From: Samuel Lampa <sam...@ri...> To: sem...@li... Sent: Sat, September 18, 2010 6:35:59 PM Subject: Re: [SMW-devel] [RDF] Discussion On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: >> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a >> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org >> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate >> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. > > Done (at least a stub): > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW Great! Had interesting read on http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation Especially this section drew my attention: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you were discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): Wikipage wrote: > ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL queries and that >returns SMW query result objects For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and there also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, which has RDF export turned on by default, etc.) Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further below: > Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) Anyway, so next thing: > Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect to different >RDF stores supporting these standards Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require ability to run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store AFAIK, etc)? Regards // Samuel > I think the next step will be to consolidate the features that we > actually want (some will have to go or unified, I guess), especially for > the #sparql parser function. > > Regards, > > Markus -- Samuel Lampa --------------------------------------- Student @ Uppsala University Freelance dev @ RIL Partner AB --------------------------------------- E-mail: samuel.lampa[at]rilpartner.se Blog: http://saml.rilspace.org WWW: http://www.rilpartner.se --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Sem...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel |
From: Jeroen De D. <jer...@gm...> - 2010-09-19 10:12:48
|
Hey, On 19 September 2010 12:00, Alfredas Chm <laf...@ym...> wrote: Just one comment. Could we perhaps copy the discussion emails to the discussion page of the http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW - so its easier to aggregate all the ideas.... It makes more sense to place them there directly, and if needed, point to them from the mailing list. Having Liquid Threads installed would be a huge plus though. Markus, can you put it on the wiki and also update the other extensions? Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw * http://blog.bn2vs.com * http://wiki.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. 50 72 6F 67 72 61 6D 6D 69 6E 67 20 34 20 6C 69 66 65! -- |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-19 12:38:55
|
On 19/09/2010 12:12, Jeroen De Dauw wrote: > Hey, > > On 19 September 2010 12:00, Alfredas Chm <laf...@ym... > <mailto:laf...@ym...>> wrote: > Just one comment. Could we perhaps copy the discussion emails to the > discussion page of the > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW - > so its easier to aggregate all the ideas.... > > > It makes more sense to place them there directly, and if needed, point > to them from the mailing list. Having Liquid Threads installed would be > a huge plus though. Markus, can you put it on the wiki and also update > the other extensions? In principle, yes, but not now or in the next two weeks. I still find discussions to be easy to have via email. We can record the *outcome* of the discussions on the wiki, but I don't see what the advantage would be in having a second copy of all our emails on the web (this list of course already has a public archive anyway). Markus |
From: Michael E. <er...@on...> - 2010-09-20 13:03:53
|
On 19.09.2010 14:38, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > In principle, yes, but not now or in the next two weeks. I still find > discussions to be easy to have via email. We can record the *outcome* of > the discussions on the wiki, but I don't see what the advantage would be > in having a second copy of all our emails on the web (this list of > course already has a public archive anyway). > +1 from me -- email: er...@on... Dr. Michael Erdmann tel: +49 / 163 / 509 8029 http://www.ontoprise.com ontoprise GmbH - know how to use Know-how An der RaumFabrik 29; 76227 Karlsruhe; Germany Registered Office: Karlsruhe, Germany (Amtsgericht Mannheim HRB 109540) Managing Directors: Prof. Dr. Juergen Angele, Hans-Peter Schnurr Semantic Enterprise Wiki - SMW+ / Halo Extension Want to get involved? http://smwforum.ontoprise.com/development |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-19 13:01:28
|
On 18/09/2010 18:35, Samuel Lampa wrote: > On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: >> On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: >>> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a >>> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org >>> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate >>> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. >> >> Done (at least a stub): >> >> http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW > > Great! Had interesting read on > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation > > Especially this section drew my attention: > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores > > ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you were > discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): > > Wikipage wrote: >> ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL queries and that returns SMW query result objects > > For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to > highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has > really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF > store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures > and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot > imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and there > also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice > for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, which has > RDF export turned on by default, etc.) The core of SMW should not be dependent on ARC2, though. The idea is to completely delegate SPARQL processing to the external store, and to keep SPARQL queries opaque to SMW. The only new SPARQL syntax processing required in SMW would be the processing of SPARQL query result documents. They are probably not so hard to parse, but one could also consider copying code from ARC2 to get this done. AFAIK existing extensions that implement RDF store bindings in this way did not require much extra RDF/SPARQL handling code for this approach. > > Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further below: >> Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) I would appreciate to have support for using local ARC2 stores directly through PHP, without running it as a web service. This would also allow some of the RDFIO code to move to SMW Core (the SMW-SPARQL-Update functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). > > Anyway, so next thing: > >> Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect to different RDF stores supporting these standards > > Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for > updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for > SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving > target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as > possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish (and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected by this). > > In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require ability to > run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the > $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store AFAIK, etc)? I do not plan to use multiple SMWStore objects at the same time now. The RDF store bindings will work like the current implementations: as write-through extensions of an SQL-based store (the SQL binding will be simpler since the query part is fully delegated to the RDF store, but copies of annotations will still be kept locally). Regards, Markus |
From: Samuel L. <sam...@ri...> - 2010-09-20 14:17:18
|
On 09/19/2010 03:01 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > (the SMW-SPARQL-Update > functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could > possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). Sound like a good idea. Possibly one could also merge/bundle code from PageObjectModel, as well. The current dependencies feels non-future-proof and adds complexity to the install process. Also there is more interesting stuff that would be nice to add to the current SMWWriter/POM functionality, such as ability to update facts annotated via template calls (so that one can present imported information nicely via templates ... something I'd really need in my current work) etc. >> Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for >> updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for >> SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving >> target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as >> possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. > > Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language > before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would > reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that > support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as > soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish > (and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected > by this). True. Best Regards, // Samuel -- Samuel Lampa --------------------------------------- Student @ Uppsala University Developer @ RIL Partner AB --------------------------------------- E-mail: samuel.lampa[at]rilpartner.se Mobile: +46 (0)70-2073732 Blog: http://saml.rilspace.org WWW: http://www.rilpartner.se --------------------------------------- |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-21 14:02:39
|
On 20/09/2010 16:17, Samuel Lampa wrote: > On 09/19/2010 03:01 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > >> (the SMW-SPARQL-Update >> functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could >> possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). > > Sound like a good idea. Possibly one could also merge/bundle code from > PageObjectModel, as well. The current dependencies feels > non-future-proof and adds complexity to the install process. > > Also there is more interesting stuff that would be nice to add to the > current SMWWriter/POM functionality, such as ability to update facts > annotated via template calls (so that one can present imported > information nicely via templates ... something I'd really need in my > current work) etc. Indeed. But regarding such improvements, I was wondering about the future ownership of these extensions in general. Is Denny going to take over the maintenance, or are you going to remain active maintaining your code after GSoC? Markus > >>> Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for >>> updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for >>> SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving >>> target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as >>> possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. >> >> Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language >> before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would >> reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that >> support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as >> soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish >> (and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected >> by this). > > True. > > Best Regards, > > // Samuel > > |
From: Samuel L. <sam...@ri...> - 2010-09-21 16:34:48
|
On 09/21/2010 04:02 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > On 20/09/2010 16:17, Samuel Lampa wrote: >> Also there is more interesting stuff that would be nice to add to the >> current SMWWriter/POM functionality, such as ability to update facts >> annotated via template calls (so that one can present imported >> information nicely via templates ... something I'd really need in my >> current work) etc. > > Indeed. But regarding such improvements, I was wondering about the > future ownership of these extensions in general. Is Denny going to take > over the maintenance, or are you going to remain active maintaining your > code after GSoC? I'd be much interested in keeping managing it (in collaboration with Denny and others who are interested) especially as there are still improvements/features I would like to see implemented for use cases I'm involved in etc. In general, within 1 month or so I should know more about my occupation for the next year(s) (looking for jobs now), which might affect the amount of time I can put on this, but I can come back with an update when I know. // Samuel -- Samuel Lampa --------------------------------------- Student @ Uppsala University Blog: http://saml.rilspace.org --------------------------------------- |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-22 09:30:00
|
On 21/09/2010 18:34, Samuel Lampa wrote: > On 09/21/2010 04:02 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: >> On 20/09/2010 16:17, Samuel Lampa wrote: >>> Also there is more interesting stuff that would be nice to add to the >>> current SMWWriter/POM functionality, such as ability to update facts >>> annotated via template calls (so that one can present imported >>> information nicely via templates ... something I'd really need in my >>> current work) etc. >> >> Indeed. But regarding such improvements, I was wondering about the >> future ownership of these extensions in general. Is Denny going to take >> over the maintenance, or are you going to remain active maintaining your >> code after GSoC? > > I'd be much interested in keeping managing it (in collaboration with > Denny and others who are interested) especially as there are still > improvements/features I would like to see implemented for use cases I'm > involved in etc. > > In general, within 1 month or so I should know more about my occupation > for the next year(s) (looking for jobs now), which might affect the > amount of time I can put on this, but I can come back with an update > when I know. Great to hear that. Good luck with your job search! Markus > > // Samuel > |
From: Samuel L. <sam...@ri...> - 2010-10-13 07:59:47
|
On 09/22/2010 11:29 AM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > On 21/09/2010 18:34, Samuel Lampa wrote: >> On 09/21/2010 04:02 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: >>> On 20/09/2010 16:17, Samuel Lampa wrote: >>>> Also there is more interesting stuff that would be nice to add to the >>>> current SMWWriter/POM functionality, such as ability to update facts >>>> annotated via template calls (so that one can present imported >>>> information nicely via templates ... something I'd really need in my >>>> current work) etc. >>> >>> Indeed. But regarding such improvements, I was wondering about the >>> future ownership of these extensions in general. Is Denny going to take >>> over the maintenance, or are you going to remain active maintaining your >>> code after GSoC? >> >> I'd be much interested in keeping managing it (in collaboration with >> Denny and others who are interested) especially as there are still >> improvements/features I would like to see implemented for use cases I'm >> involved in etc. >> >> In general, within 1 month or so I should know more about my occupation >> for the next year(s) (looking for jobs now), which might affect the >> amount of time I can put on this, but I can come back with an update >> when I know. > > Great to hear that. > > Good luck with your job search! > > Markus Many thanks for that! Well, I think it is now time for a little update. I currently have a 2-month employment (with possible extension) as a Bioinformatician / Software developer at a Next Generation sequencing and high performance computing center at Uppsala University, working right now with software solutions for tracking data and workflows. We're currently looking at software solutions for this, and depending on the choice, there's in fact a little chance that I end up working with SMW in my job, but that remains to see. Anyway, I'll be quite busy during these two months with also finishing the last remaining bits of my studies as well, so not too much extra time for SMW in general for 1-2 months or so :( Having said that, do feel very much free to slice and dice functionality from RDFIO in the ways discussed (or other ways), and I'll be happy to try to keep up and modify RDFIO to provide only any remaining/complementary functionality to make it provide it's current functionality. Best Regards Samuel -- Samuel Lampa --------------------------------------- Bioinformatician / Software developer Science for Life Laboratory Uppsala University, Sweden Blog: http://saml.rilspace.org --------------------------------------- |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-10-13 09:39:36
|
On 13/10/2010 08:59, Samuel Lampa wrote: > On 09/22/2010 11:29 AM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: <snip> > > Many thanks for that! > > Well, I think it is now time for a little update. > > I currently have a 2-month employment (with possible extension) as a > Bioinformatician / Software developer at a Next Generation sequencing > and high performance computing center at Uppsala University, working > right now with software solutions for tracking data and workflows. We're > currently looking at software solutions for this, and depending on the > choice, there's in fact a little chance that I end up working with SMW > in my job, but that remains to see. > > Anyway, I'll be quite busy during these two months with also finishing > the last remaining bits of my studies as well, so not too much extra > time for SMW in general for 1-2 months or so :( > > Having said that, do feel very much free to slice and dice functionality > from RDFIO in the ways discussed (or other ways), and I'll be happy to > try to keep up and modify RDFIO to provide only any > remaining/complementary functionality to make it provide it's current > functionality. Good to hear that. The RDF/SPARQL discussion is currently stalled a little due to other follow-up activities from the previous SMWCon (mainly related to community support and better outreach; the improved Main Page and Wiki of the Month feature will be part of this). I expect that I can put more work into RDF in one or two weeks from now. Of course, the other members of the SPARQL interest group do not have to wait for me ... Regards, Markus |
From: Karima R. <kar...@bo...> - 2010-09-20 00:51:29
|
Hi I'm very tired so I will be short. Only 2 truths : 1) SMW has always raeson. The triplets in RDF of one page IS the result of the query select * where {<page> ?p ?v} in the triplestore. 2) the customer has always raeson. So : 1) Any extensions rdfIO or halo, etc haven't to change the graph of SMW. So the user can change the extension and triplestore without redevelop its sparql clients. One word : Interoperability. 2) if you keep your old triplestore with sparul or other protocol, the customers will choose the old or the triplestore full compliant W3C. SMW is a project free so if others extensions want wait the final recommandation, they can keep the current version of SMW and write in their specifications their version of smw. My proposition : To respect the first truth, the extension sparql need to have two things in SMW : - Hook update/insert/delete/refreshall/deleteall data of swm : call class inherit of InterfaceTripleStore - Contract InterfaceTripleStore{ Insert($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); Update($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); Delete($graphName,$IriPage); DeleteGraph($graphName); } Parameters: $IriPage : IRI not URI. I have to have accent in the IRI (sorry I speak french, lol ) and replace only space by underscore. RDF cannot use IRI but in the recommandation sparql in the triplestore, it's one <IRI>. For the value, you have to insert the tag langage ie the langage of wiki. $arrayTurtle : one array with 3 column. one field is a IRI (again) or one value like define in the recommandation of sparql 1.0. $graphName : usually it's the domain name of wiki example : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki you can use my class http://github.com/BorderCloud/LinkedWiki/blob/master/class/SMW_LinkedWikiStore.phpto build the parameter arrayTriplets for one first version. For the Hook, the code of SMW is too dark for me. Sorry. It's simple ;) ... it's one minimum. After, we can speak of the future architecture of SWM with a triplestore or fork SMW... To respect the second rule : Do nothing, the best will win. In one year, you can ask a survey and so you will can copy and paste the code of the best extension in the SMW. (Geek rule 1 : never reinvent the wheel and copy/paste is your best friend. ) Sorry for my english, Bye. Karima 2010/9/19 Markus Krötzsch <ma...@se...> > On 18/09/2010 18:35, Samuel Lampa wrote: > > On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > >> On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: > >>> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create > a > >>> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org > >>> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate > >>> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the > discussion. > >> > >> Done (at least a stub): > >> > >> http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW > > > > Great! Had interesting read on > > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation > > > > Especially this section drew my attention: > > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores > > > > ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you were > > discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): > > > > Wikipage wrote: > >> ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL queries and > that returns SMW query result objects > > > > For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to > > highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has > > really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF > > store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures > > and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot > > imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and there > > also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice > > for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, which has > > RDF export turned on by default, etc.) > > The core of SMW should not be dependent on ARC2, though. The idea is to > completely delegate SPARQL processing to the external store, and to keep > SPARQL queries opaque to SMW. The only new SPARQL syntax processing > required in SMW would be the processing of SPARQL query result > documents. They are probably not so hard to parse, but one could also > consider copying code from ARC2 to get this done. AFAIK existing > extensions that implement RDF store bindings in this way did not require > much extra RDF/SPARQL handling code for this approach. > > > > > Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further below: > >> Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) > > I would appreciate to have support for using local ARC2 stores directly > through PHP, without running it as a web service. This would also allow > some of the RDFIO code to move to SMW Core (the SMW-SPARQL-Update > functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could > possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). > > > > > Anyway, so next thing: > > > >> Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect to > different RDF stores supporting these standards > > > > Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for > > updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for > > SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving > > target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as > > possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. > > Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language > before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would > reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that > support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as > soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish > (and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected > by this). > > > > > In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require ability to > > run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the > > $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store AFAIK, > etc)? > > I do not plan to use multiple SMWStore objects at the same time now. The > RDF store bindings will work like the current implementations: as > write-through extensions of an SQL-based store (the SQL binding will be > simpler since the query part is fully delegated to the RDF store, but > copies of annotations will still be kept locally). > > Regards, > > Markus > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > |
From: Alfredas C. <laf...@ym...> - 2010-09-20 09:56:33
|
Dear All, I can completely agree with Karima. For the connection to the triple store (TS) we should have an interface that people can implement the way they want, depending on the implementation of their triple store. The interface Karima describes looks very similar to the SMWStore. And I like the idea of extending SMWStore to get things done with minimum rewrite. In case of the SparqlExtension we extend SMWStore and achieve the functionality with minimum effort. I would suggest to create an abstract class (and interface) SMWTripleStore to extend the SMWStore and provide a bunch of utility/helper methods (semanticdata_to_triples :-). That would take care of the writing to the TS. Now getting data from the TS is a different question. Also there's a related question of the integration with the SRF. Alfredas ________________________________ From: Karima Rafes <kar...@bo...> To: Markus Krötzsch <ma...@se...> Cc: sem...@li... Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 2:19:55 AM Subject: Re: [SMW-devel] [RDF] Discussion Hi I'm very tired so I will be short. Only 2 truths : 1) SMW has always raeson. The triplets in RDF of one page IS the result of the query select * where {<page> ?p ?v} in the triplestore. 2) the customer has always raeson. So : 1) Any extensions rdfIO or halo, etc haven't to change the graph of SMW. So the user can change the extension and triplestore without redevelop its sparql clients. One word : Interoperability. 2) if you keep your old triplestore with sparul or other protocol, the customers will choose the old or the triplestore full compliant W3C. SMW is a project free so if others extensions want wait the final recommandation, they can keep the current version of SMW and write in their specifications their version of smw. My proposition : To respect the first truth, the extension sparql need to have two things in SMW : - Hook update/insert/delete/refreshall/deleteall data of swm : call class inherit of InterfaceTripleStore - Contract InterfaceTripleStore{ Insert($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); Update($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); Delete($graphName,$IriPage); DeleteGraph($graphName); } Parameters: $IriPage : IRI not URI. I have to have accent in the IRI (sorry I speak french, lol ) and replace only space by underscore. RDF cannot use IRI but in the recommandation sparql in the triplestore, it's one <IRI>. For the value, you have to insert the tag langage ie the langage of wiki. $arrayTurtle : one array with 3 column. one field is a IRI (again) or one value like define in the recommandation of sparql 1.0. $graphName : usually it's the domain name of wiki example : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki you can use my class http://github.com/BorderCloud/LinkedWiki/blob/master/class/SMW_LinkedWikiStore.php to build the parameter arrayTriplets for one first version. For the Hook, the code of SMW is too dark for me. Sorry. It's simple ;) ... it's one minimum. After, we can speak of the future architecture of SWM with a triplestore or fork SMW... To respect the second rule : Do nothing, the best will win. In one year, you can ask a survey and so you will can copy and paste the code of the best extension in the SMW. (Geek rule 1 : never reinvent the wheel and copy/paste is your best friend. ) Sorry for my english, Bye. Karima 2010/9/19 Markus Krötzsch <ma...@se...> On 18/09/2010 18:35, Samuel Lampa wrote: >> On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: >>> On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: >>>> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to create a >>>> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org >>>> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate >>>> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the discussion. >>> >>> Done (at least a stub): >>> >>> http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW >> >> Great! Had interesting read on >> http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation >> >> Especially this section drew my attention: >>http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores >>s >> >> ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you were >> discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): >> >> Wikipage wrote: >>> ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL queries and that >>>returns SMW query result objects >> >> For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to >> highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has >> really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF >> store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures >> and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot >> imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and there >> also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice >> for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, which has >> RDF export turned on by default, etc.) > >The core of SMW should not be dependent on ARC2, though. The idea is to >completely delegate SPARQL processing to the external store, and to keep >SPARQL queries opaque to SMW. The only new SPARQL syntax processing >required in SMW would be the processing of SPARQL query result >documents. They are probably not so hard to parse, but one could also >consider copying code from ARC2 to get this done. AFAIK existing >extensions that implement RDF store bindings in this way did not require >much extra RDF/SPARQL handling code for this approach. > > >> >> Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further below: >>> Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) > >I would appreciate to have support for using local ARC2 stores directly >through PHP, without running it as a web service. This would also allow >some of the RDFIO code to move to SMW Core (the SMW-SPARQL-Update >functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could >possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). > > >> >> Anyway, so next thing: >> >>> Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect to different >>>RDF stores supporting these standards >> >> Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for >> updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for >> SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a moving >> target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as >> possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. > >Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language >before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would >reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that >support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as >soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish >(and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected >by this). > > >> >> In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require ability to >> run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the >> $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store AFAIK, etc)? > >I do not plan to use multiple SMWStore objects at the same time now. The >RDF store bindings will work like the current implementations: as >write-through extensions of an SQL-based store (the SQL binding will be >simpler since the query part is fully delegated to the RDF store, but >copies of annotations will still be kept locally). > >Regards, > >Markus > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >and start using them to simplify application deployment and >accelerate your shift to cloud computing. >http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >_______________________________________________ >Semediawiki-devel mailing list >Sem...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > |
From: Markus K. <ma...@se...> - 2010-09-21 13:57:39
|
On 20/09/2010 11:56, Alfredas Chm wrote: > Dear All, > > I can completely agree with Karima. For the connection to the triple > store (TS) we should have an interface that people can implement the way > they want, depending on the implementation of their triple store. > The interface Karima describes looks very similar to the SMWStore. And I > like the idea of extending SMWStore to get things done with minimum > rewrite. > In case of the SparqlExtension we extend SMWStore and achieve the > functionality with minimum effort. > I would suggest to create an abstract class (and interface) > SMWTripleStore to extend the SMWStore and provide a bunch of > utility/helper methods (semanticdata_to_triples :-). > That would take care of the writing to the TS. +1 So far there is no explicit abstract class in my TODO section only because I thought that it might be easier to extract this after having implemented (imported) a first RDF store binding, and checking how many of its methods other classes might want to use. But in the end an intermediate class should help implementers to create new bindings. > > Now getting data from the TS is a different question. Also there's a > related question of the integration with the SRF. The SMWStore interface includes read methods. The direct read methods (getSemanticData-based) will continue to use the DB since they are typically used for simple small read accesses. But we can easily include SPARQL access methods in the same interface (note that the existing SQL store without RDF store support will not answer SPARQL, but it can still support such an interface if it allows to return a value that indcates "feature not supported"). Markus > > > > > *From:* Karima Rafes <kar...@bo...> > *To:* Markus Krötzsch <ma...@se...> > *Cc:* sem...@li... > *Sent:* Mon, September 20, 2010 2:19:55 AM > *Subject:* Re: [SMW-devel] [RDF] Discussion > > Hi > > I'm very tired so I will be short. > > Only 2 truths : > 1) SMW has always raeson. The triplets in RDF of one page IS the result > of the query select * where {<page> ?p ?v} in the triplestore. > 2) the customer has always raeson. > > So : > 1) Any extensions rdfIO or halo, etc haven't to change the graph of SMW. > So the user can change the extension and triplestore without redevelop > its sparql clients. One word : Interoperability. > 2) if you keep your old triplestore with sparul or other protocol, the > customers will choose the old or the triplestore full compliant W3C. SMW > is a project free so if others extensions want wait the final > recommandation, they can keep the current version of SMW and write in > their specifications their version of smw. > > My proposition : > To respect the first truth, the extension sparql need to have two things > in SMW : > - Hook update/insert/delete/refreshall/deleteall data of swm : call > class inherit of InterfaceTripleStore > - Contract InterfaceTripleStore{ > Insert($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); > Update($graphName,$IriPage,$arrayTriplets); > Delete($graphName,$IriPage); > DeleteGraph($graphName); > } > > Parameters: > $IriPage : IRI not URI. I have to have accent in the IRI (sorry I speak > french, lol ) and replace only space by underscore. RDF cannot use IRI > but in the recommandation sparql in the triplestore, it's one <IRI>. For > the value, you have to insert the tag langage ie the langage of wiki. > $arrayTurtle : one array with 3 column. one field is a IRI (again) or > one value like define in the recommandation of sparql 1.0. > $graphName : usually it's the domain name of wiki example : > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki > > > you can use my class > http://github.com/BorderCloud/LinkedWiki/blob/master/class/SMW_LinkedWikiStore.php > to build the parameter arrayTriplets for one first version. > For the Hook, the code of SMW is too dark for me. Sorry. > > It's simple ;) ... it's one minimum. After, we can speak of the future > architecture of SWM with a triplestore or fork SMW... > > To respect the second rule : > Do nothing, the best will win. In one year, you can ask a survey and so > you will can copy and paste the code of the best extension in the SMW. > (Geek rule 1 : never reinvent the wheel and copy/paste is your best > friend. ) > > Sorry for my english, > Bye. > Karima > > > 2010/9/19 Markus Krötzsch <ma...@se... > <mailto:ma...@se...>> > > On 18/09/2010 18:35, Samuel Lampa wrote: > > On 09/18/2010 03:22 PM, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > >> On 18/09/2010 15:05, Alfredas Chm wrote: > >>> As the first thing on the agenda, I would like to ask Markus to > create a > >>> page (and add permissions) on the semantic-mediawiki.org > <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> > > >> <http://semantic-mediawiki.org> to put the info on the separate > >>> extensions, comparisons - to be used later as the basis for the > discussion. > >> > >> Done (at least a stub): > >> > > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW > > > > Great! Had interesting read on > > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Realisation > > > > Especially this section drew my attention: > > > http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW#Modifying_the_SMW_store_API_and_implementations_to_use_RDF_stores > > > > ... so let me add some inline comments (This might be aspects you > were > > discussing/regarding already, but just to make sure): > > > > Wikipage wrote: > >> ... needs to be extended with a function that takes SPARQL > queries and that returns SMW query result objects > > > > For this kind of processing SPARQL/RDF etc with PHP, I'd like to > > highlight the huge benefit of keeping ARC2 in the picture ... it has > > really been an amazing productivity igniter, not so much for its RDF > > store and SPARQL Endpoint as for its super-convenient data structures > > and methods for processing SPARQL, RDF (and its variants). I cannot > > imagine having succeeded with RDFIO in time without all that and > there > > also seems to be quite some converge on ARC2 as the library-of-choice > > for other PHP based projects as well (The upcoming Drupal 7, > which has > > RDF export turned on by default, etc.) > > The core of SMW should not be dependent on ARC2, though. The idea is to > completely delegate SPARQL processing to the external store, and to keep > SPARQL queries opaque to SMW. The only new SPARQL syntax processing > required in SMW would be the processing of SPARQL query result > documents. They are probably not so hard to parse, but one could also > consider copying code from ARC2 to get this done. AFAIK existing > extensions that implement RDF store bindings in this way did not require > much extra RDF/SPARQL handling code for this approach. > > > > > Though maybe that is what was thought of, with the line further > below: > >> Direct bindings to ARC2 (via PHP) > > I would appreciate to have support for using local ARC2 stores directly > through PHP, without running it as a web service. This would also allow > some of the RDFIO code to move to SMW Core (the SMW-SPARQL-Update > functionality via SMWWriter would remain an extension, but could > possibly be integrated with SMWWriter). > > > > > Anyway, so next thing: > > > >> Generic SPARQL/SPARUL SMW store implementation that can connect > to different RDF stores supporting these standards > > > > Noting though that there are currently more than one standard for > > updating. ARC2 currently uses SPARQL+ [1], while waiting for > > SPARQ:/Update to stabilize, and standards seem to be a bit of a > moving > > target still, so it'd probably be good to make things as generic as > > possible, in order to support multiple/changing standards. > > Yes, and it might be necessary to do some changes to the update language > before the recommendation is completed. In the worst case, this would > reduce our "generic" RDF store support to one or two systems that > support our preliminary version of the SPARQL update language. But as > soon as SPARQL 1.1 is out, these intermediate restrictions will vanish > (and the main architecture of SMW's SPARQL support would not be affected > by this). > > > > > In general, all these envisioned strategies seem to require > ability to > > run more than one store. So, is that possible today (There is the > > $smwgDefaultStore config setting, but that only takes one store > AFAIK, etc)? > > I do not plan to use multiple SMWStore objects at the same time now. The > RDF store bindings will work like the current implementations: as > write-through extensions of an SQL-based store (the SQL binding will be > simpler since the query part is fully delegated to the RDF store, but > copies of annotations will still be kept locally). > > Regards, > > Markus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Sem...@li... > <mailto:Sem...@li...> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > > > |