From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-23 01:10:05
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Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get smooth expression curves (CC#11) in Rosegarden? I can never get them smooth enough (it always sounds choppy) and always end up having to put my composition into another program to get good sounding expression. Drawing the bars in manually is cumbersome at best, being able to draw a smooth curve or even a straight line with a mouse woudl make it much easier. Have to wait for Thorn? -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: D. M. M. <mic...@ro...> - 2009-09-23 02:09:16
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On Tuesday 22 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get smooth > expression curves (CC#11) > Have to wait for Thorn? Or slightly beyond. I'm not sure what the timeframe is for all of this. Chris Fryer is completely rewriting the control rulers. Right now we have data points instead of bars, and when I talked about the missing "draw line of controllers" functionality, Chris Fryer talked about functions to interpolate between established points and insert MIDI events automatically, complete with bezier curves. Sounds very cool. Will it get done before Thorn? Who knows. As far as Classic goes though, you're totally screwed. Sorry. That's part of why control rulers are getting a total rewrite. On the bright side, the new rulers are a real improvement. Even if you have to draw lines and curves by hand, it will go much quicker than you're used to, because you can just click away with the pencil, and manipulate things very fluidly and easily if you don't like how they turned out the first time. -- D. Michael McIntyre |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-23 02:12:27
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On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:00 PM, D. Michael McIntyre <mic...@ro...> wrote: > On Tuesday 22 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > >> Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get smooth >> expression curves (CC#11) > >> Have to wait for Thorn? > > Or slightly beyond. I'm not sure what the timeframe is for all of this. > Chris Fryer is completely rewriting the control rulers. Right now we have > data points instead of bars, and when I talked about the missing "draw line of > controllers" functionality, Chris Fryer talked about functions to interpolate > between established points and insert MIDI events automatically, complete with > bezier curves. > > Sounds very cool. Will it get done before Thorn? Who knows. > > As far as Classic goes though, you're totally screwed. Sorry. That's part of > why control rulers are getting a total rewrite. > > On the bright side, the new rulers are a real improvement. Even if you have > to draw lines and curves by hand, it will go much quicker than you're used to, > because you can just click away with the pencil, and manipulate things very > fluidly and easily if you don't like how they turned out the first time. Yeah, I have played around with the pitch bend ruler in the dev version, very nice! -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: Julie S <msj...@ya...> - 2009-09-23 02:12:34
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Dear Brett, You wrote: > Does anyone have any tips or > suggestions on how to get smooth > expression curves (CC#11) in Rosegarden? I can never get > them smooth > enough (it always sounds choppy) and always end up having > to put my > composition into another program to get good sounding > expression. > Drawing the bars in manually is cumbersome at best, being > able to draw > a smooth curve or even a straight line with a mouse woudl > make it much > easier. Have to wait for Thorn? > In 1.7.3 do this: * Draw segment in RG Main window. * Open said segment in Matrix view. * In matrix view: View->Add event Ruler->Expression (#11) [I assume you have this CC already] In the bottom CC area: Right mouse click->Insert Line of Controllers Left mouse click (and hold) the startpoint. drag to endpoint then release. You should have a line of controllers. If you need better resolution, you'll have to hack the RG source code. I'll dig the relevant line up if you like. But I'm pretty busy. maybe another user recalls where to head to. Good luck. Sincerely, Julie S. |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-23 02:25:47
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On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Julie S <msj...@ya...> wrote: > In 1.7.3 do this: > * Draw segment in RG Main window. > * Open said segment in Matrix view. > * In matrix view: > View->Add event Ruler->Expression (#11) > [I assume you have this CC already] > In the bottom CC area: > Right mouse click->Insert Line of Controllers > Left mouse click (and hold) the startpoint. > drag to endpoint then release. > > You should have a line of controllers. > > If you need better resolution, you'll have to hack the RG source code. > > I'll dig the relevant line up if you like. But I'm pretty busy. maybe another user recalls where to head to. That's the problem, it needs tighter resolution, I can hear the incremental jumps between values when I playback the segment instead of a smooth sound. -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: Julie S <msj...@ya...> - 2009-09-23 07:19:26
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Dear Brett: Here is the code change to get finer resolution: In stable_1_7/src/gui/rulers/ControllerEventsRuler.cpp line 456 Old line: timeT quantDur = Note(Note::Quaver).getDuration(); New line: timeT quantDur = Note(Note::Shortest).getDuration(); Then: make sudo make install Have fun. Sincerely, Julie S. |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-24 00:53:32
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That changed it somewhat, but it's still not smooth, I can hear actual skips in the values which makes for jittery sounding expressions. On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:19 AM, Julie S <msj...@ya...> wrote: > Dear Brett: > > Here is the code change to get finer resolution: > In stable_1_7/src/gui/rulers/ControllerEventsRuler.cpp line 456 > > Old line: > timeT quantDur = Note(Note::Quaver).getDuration(); > > > New line: > timeT quantDur = Note(Note::Shortest).getDuration(); > > > Then: > make > > sudo make install > > > Have fun. > > Sincerely, > Julie S. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Ros...@li... - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > -- ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: D. M. M. <mic...@ro...> - 2009-09-24 01:01:37
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On Wednesday 23 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > That changed it somewhat, but it's still not smooth, I can hear actual > skips in the values which makes for jittery sounding expressions. Something to keep in mind for if/when Chris implements those curves. I guess they want < 1/64th resolution, if that is even possible without refactoring everything. -- D. Michael McIntyre |
From: Julie S <msj...@ya...> - 2009-09-24 02:13:57
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Hello All, Are we certain that it is just not the coarseness of the the controller. Very high fidelity or large amplifications will make those 127 step some coarse. Also this coarseness can occur if the sound envelope is moving in grade with the CC. Say that the sound is increasing in volume over time and the control is as well. The addition could sound coarse depending on the variables at play. Hmmm... Sincerely, Julie S |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-24 12:46:13
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On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Julie S <msj...@ya...> wrote: > Are we certain that it is just not the coarseness of the the controller. > > Very high fidelity or large amplifications will make those 127 step some coarse. > > Also this coarseness can occur if the sound envelope is moving in grade with the CC. Say that the sound is increasing in volume over time and the control is as well. The addition could sound coarse depending on the variables at play. The only way I can get it to sound right in Rosegarden is to export the track as MIDI, open it in another MIDI editor, draw in the expression data until it sounds correct, then bring it back into Rosegarden. Theoretically, one could draw that data in Rosegarden, but drawing the line of controllers never gives me the same smoothness as when I use an external MIDI editor (in this case, I am using Geniesoft's Overture to draw the CC data). When I draw the line in this other program, it give me a solid line of smooth data rather than 2 or 3 bars of very course data. I presume if the resolution were 1/128th (twice as fine as 64th), it would probably work. So, it's really not the playback per se but how smoothly the data can be drawn from the start. -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-24 02:12:56
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On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 8:59 PM, D. Michael McIntyre <mic...@ro...> wrote: > On Wednesday 23 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > >> That changed it somewhat, but it's still not smooth, I can hear actual >> skips in the values which makes for jittery sounding expressions. > > Something to keep in mind for if/when Chris implements those curves. I guess > they want < 1/64th resolution, if that is even possible without refactoring > everything. I'm not sure how it's done in other apps, but there may be interpolation between points also, so if there is a straight line of CC data from, say, the beginning of the measure starting at 60 and going to the end of the first quaver beat with a value of 96, that's 36 changes in value of the expression data (range from 0 -127). Right now in Rosegarden if I draw that line of controller data in the ruler, I might get 2 or 3 bars with very audible jumps in the values. My example might sound like a pretty steep line, but when you are using samples and orchestral expression, expressions like that really help make the instrument come alive, so the attacks aren't the same on every note. >From what I have seen in Thorn, Chris's work on the new rulers looks really good and much more useful! -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: D. M. M. <mic...@ro...> - 2009-09-24 03:27:47
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On Wednesday 23 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > > Something to keep in mind for if/when Chris implements those curves. I > > guess they want < 1/64th resolution, if that is even possible without > > refactoring everything. > > I'm not sure how it's done in other apps, but there may be > interpolation between points also, so if there is a straight line of > CC data from, say, the beginning of the measure starting at 60 and > going to the end of the first quaver beat with a value of 96, that's > 36 changes in value of the expression data (range from 0 -127). What I was thinking about is how even with interpolation, a MIDI event has to get created somewhere, and stuck where the sequencer can do something with it. There could potentially be problems with the minimum resolution for doing that being insufficient. Maybe not. It's all completely random and only very minimally-informed speculation at this point. -- D. Michael McIntyre |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-24 12:49:34
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On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:25 PM, D. Michael McIntyre <mic...@ro...> wrote: > On Wednesday 23 September 2009, Brett McCoy wrote: > >> > Something to keep in mind for if/when Chris implements those curves. I >> > guess they want < 1/64th resolution, if that is even possible without >> > refactoring everything. >> >> I'm not sure how it's done in other apps, but there may be >> interpolation between points also, so if there is a straight line of >> CC data from, say, the beginning of the measure starting at 60 and >> going to the end of the first quaver beat with a value of 96, that's >> 36 changes in value of the expression data (range from 0 -127). > > What I was thinking about is how even with interpolation, a MIDI event has to > get created somewhere, and stuck where the sequencer can do something with it. > There could potentially be problems with the minimum resolution for doing that > being insufficient. > > Maybe not. It's all completely random and only very minimally-informed > speculation at this point. What I mean by interpolation is to create a smooth change of values between the start and end of the line of controllers that are drawn. Thorn is on the right track here, so I think we really need to just focus on that. I'm sorry if I appear to be whining, I love Rosegarden and use it more than any other music composing software these days! -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |
From: Lorenzo <ls...@li...> - 2009-09-24 10:54:31
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Hi Brett, Slightly more general from your question. From my midi experience I would NOT reccomend use CC 11 (expression) for simulationg dynamic expression in MIDI (i.e. crescendo, diminuendo etc.), instead I would use notes' velocities. Here are some other points related dynamics and midi in general: - I've seen that CC 11 name is misleading, in fact most midi devices will usually it as a simple volume change. Tha problem is that creating a volume fade is not like the dynamics in real instruments. If you play a piano key hard there's no way to naturally fading it out (for other instrument - like bowed or some winds this may be possible but it is hardly ever 'straight' a linear fade). To do a decrescendo you playe the next keys softer and softer. So using a CC 11 may sound 'choppy' and un-natural as you defined anyway, because it is basically altering the instrument's envelope as well. - Rarely a human performer manages/wants to do 'perfectly streight' dyneamic changes as if drawing envelopes: even on crescendos and diminuendos the dynamics more often increase/decrease in clusters (i.e. bunches) of notes, so be it cc or velocity you might want to try working in note clusters and that usually sounds more natural. You have to decide how to group the notes (it could be bars, harmonics, phrases or mixes of these) and it depends much on the piece, you style etc. - Keep an eye at the macro and micro levels of dynamics. For example remember (musical) accents. Using linear segments will kill any musical (e.g. bar, interpretation) accents. If you think in note clusters and using velocities you can make a whole phrase/passage louder in the whole yet maintaining 'internal' dynamics (eg. the canonical strong weak semi-strong week scheme in 4/4 or strong week week in 3/4 waltz). - Dynamics are often coupled with interpretation, depending much on the music style, piece and performer of course. For example in 'classical' playing a crescendo usually goes together with an accelerando (speed up) and a diminuendo with a rallentando (the formar is often unconscious by the player). Often a forte or fortissimo is underlined by a staccato or tenuto. Experimenting with these elements will also help give a more natural feel to the midi you are writing. Kind regards, Lorenzo. Brett McCoy wrote: > Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get smooth > expression curves (CC#11) in Rosegarden? I can never get them smooth > enough (it always sounds choppy) and always end up having to put my > composition into another program to get good sounding expression. > Drawing the bars in manually is cumbersome at best, being able to draw > a smooth curve or even a straight line with a mouse woudl make it much > easier. Have to wait for Thorn? > > -- Brett > ------------------------------------------------------------ > "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; > If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." > -- Jelaleddin Rumi > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now! / > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf > _______________________________________________ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Ros...@li... - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > > |
From: Brett M. <idr...@gm...> - 2009-09-24 12:44:35
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On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Lorenzo <ls...@li...> wrote: > Hi Brett, > > Slightly more general from your question. > From my midi experience I would NOT reccomend use CC 11 (expression) for > simulationg dynamic expression in MIDI (i.e. crescendo, diminuendo etc.), > instead I would use notes' velocities. > Here are some other points related dynamics and midi in general: Velocities (on-velocity) only affect the apparent loudness of the entire note, you can't change it within a sustained note, which is exactly what expression is intended to be used for. I do use velocity for many things, for various kinds of dynamics and even for switching articulations and sample layers, but you can't swell notes or affect attacks with just velocity. I also use CC#7 for volume to control the overall loudness of a track (for implementing crescendos and dimenuendos, for instance), and use CC#11 to control individual notes, to give them more natural sounds so every note doesn't have the same attack, swell the note slightly in the middle, and so on. This is the problem I am having right now, getting smooth controller data lines so it sounds smooth on playback. -- Brett ------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi |