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From: The S. <sco...@ma...> - 2005-04-23 00:40:02
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Lucullus, about the templates, dont forget that even though you make a custom texture sheet for each model, you can *still* easily have multiple textures for it, simply by painting over the unwrap. The only difference here is that rather than having 1 template for each [generic] tool, you have a template for a specific tool [, or model]. So if you have a human, once you unwrap a texture sheet for him, and paint the appropriate skin/clothes, you can simply paint over that map any number of times for any variation you need, (i.e. blood, bruises, other clothes, other variations) <span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________________________<BR>Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at <a href=http://www.mail2world.com target=new>http://www.mail2world.com</a><br> <font color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More!</font></font></span> |
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From: The S. <sco...@ma...> - 2005-04-25 00:12:53
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Thomi, well thats the thing, it all sounds good in theory (and I understand its benifit), but I've found (as others have) that in practise it doesnt always work. Also, about "On top of that, the original models need to be on hand when the >textures are made, so the unwrapping can be examined.": once again, in practice, you really would always need the original models on hand while you're painting, because you really can't forsee the results. It's a risky business, because you would have to expect that each of the models were unwrapped perfectly to the template and use the texture sheet correctly. Plus, you would assume that the tempates are made perfectly, and that whoever designed them allowed them to 'work' for your model.. sometimes (actually most times) you need it to be tailored for each individual model. I don't know, but I've never seen such a tex template system been implemented in commercial games - at least to this degree of genericness (is that a word? :)) BTW, On your scenario, if we have 5 different human models who are only "slightly different", why not just use 1 model and paint 5 different textures for him? Else, if one has a certain prop, well, they would be modelled independently anyway. Once again, I repeat that although this system sounds great in theory, I havent had much success with it in a production situation. <span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________________________<BR>Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at <a href=http://www.mail2world.com target=new>http://www.mail2world.com</a><br> <font color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More!</font></font></span> |
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From: Thomi R. <th...@on...> - 2005-04-25 07:06:40
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I've certainly heard this argument before... You may very well be correct, but you still fail to address the *real* issue at hand: what system will you use to coordinate textures and models? Believe me, the traditional "artists model and texture their own models) will NOT work - no way. OTOH, the worldforge people use the template system regularly, and have several working applications where it seems to work very well. > It's a risky business, because you would have to expect that each of the > models were unwrapped perfectly to the template and use the texture > sheet correctly. Plus, you would assume that the tempates are made > perfectly, and that whoever designed them allowed them to 'work' for > your model.. sometimes (actually most times) you need it to be tailored > for each individual model. Yes, the workmanship on the modelling, unwrapping, and indeed the template creation would have to be good. Then again, I expect good work from our modellers anyway, so what's the problem? > > I don't know, but I've never seen such a tex template system been > implemented in commercial games - at least to this degree of genericness > (is that a word? :)) > I have. Name a recently released commercial MMORPG; I guarantee that it uses a system like this. Not using a system of this nature is throwing time and money down the drain - it's stupid. > BTW, On your scenario, if we have 5 different human models who are only > "slightly different", why not just use 1 model and paint 5 different > textures for him? Else, if one has a certain prop, well, they would be > modelled independently anyway. > Because you want some of the changes in detail to be in the model. For example model 1 might be slightly taller, model 2 slightly shorter, fatter, thinner, etc, etc. > Once again, I repeat that although this system sounds great in theory, I > havent had much success with it in a production situation. > No offence, but how many commercial production situations have you been in? We're all new to this, I just think we should try and use the system (which has, IMO been proven by other people, than construct arguments as to why it might not work (in logic this is called a "straw man argument"). It may be that the system needs to be tweaked to our situation. Maybe only some templates will work, maybe the templates need to be changed... whatever we choose, we need to make a decision NOW. -- Thomi Richards th...@on... http://www.once.net.nz |
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From: Larry O. <luc...@te...> - 2005-04-27 04:08:56
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check out http://wow.stratics.com/content/sod/11092002.jpg it is a World of Warcraft screen shot. Notice the human female and the dwarf. They both have the same pants on same texture. looks like it was streched a bit for the humand and squashed a bit for the dwarf both look good though. I think it may just take getting used to using templates based on the description of the system I read on worldforge and my own experiance It makes the un wrapping more difficult because you have to stretch and pull your unwrapped mesh around a bit and need to thing ahead about where you put your seams but the result can look good. Lucullus Thomi Richards wrote: >I've certainly heard this argument before... > > >You may very well be correct, but you still fail to address the *real* issue >at hand: what system will you use to coordinate textures and models? Believe >me, the traditional "artists model and texture their own models) will NOT >work - no way. > > >OTOH, the worldforge people use the template system regularly, and have >several working applications where it seems to work very well. > > > > >>It's a risky business, because you would have to expect that each of the >>models were unwrapped perfectly to the template and use the texture >>sheet correctly. Plus, you would assume that the tempates are made >>perfectly, and that whoever designed them allowed them to 'work' for >>your model.. sometimes (actually most times) you need it to be tailored >>for each individual model. >> >> > >Yes, the workmanship on the modelling, unwrapping, and indeed the template >creation would have to be good. Then again, I expect good work from our >modellers anyway, so what's the problem? > > > >>I don't know, but I've never seen such a tex template system been >>implemented in commercial games - at least to this degree of genericness >>(is that a word? :)) >> >> >> > >I have. Name a recently released commercial MMORPG; I guarantee that it uses a >system like this. Not using a system of this nature is throwing time and >money down the drain - it's stupid. > > > >>BTW, On your scenario, if we have 5 different human models who are only >>"slightly different", why not just use 1 model and paint 5 different >>textures for him? Else, if one has a certain prop, well, they would be >>modelled independently anyway. >> >> >> > >Because you want some of the changes in detail to be in the model. For example >model 1 might be slightly taller, model 2 slightly shorter, fatter, thinner, >etc, etc. > > > >>Once again, I repeat that although this system sounds great in theory, I >>havent had much success with it in a production situation. >> >> >> > >No offence, but how many commercial production situations have you been in? > >We're all new to this, I just think we should try and use the system (which >has, IMO been proven by other people, than construct arguments as to why it >might not work (in logic this is called a "straw man argument"). > >It may be that the system needs to be tweaked to our situation. Maybe only >some templates will work, maybe the templates need to be changed... > > >whatever we choose, we need to make a decision NOW. > > > > > |
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From: Thomi R. <th...@on...> - 2005-04-27 07:28:12
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:08, Larry Offley wrote: > check out > > http://wow.stratics.com/content/sod/11092002.jpg > > it is a World of Warcraft screen shot. Notice the human female and the > dwarf. They both have the same pants on same texture. looks like it was > streched a bit for the humand and squashed a bit for the dwarf both look > good though. Yes. > > I think it may just take getting used to using templates based on the > description of the system I read on worldforge and my own experiance It > makes the un wrapping more difficult because you have to stretch and > pull your unwrapped mesh around a bit and need to thing ahead about > where you put your seams but the result can look good. > Indeed. We need people to think like this more often ;) -- Thomi Richards th...@on... http://www.once.net.nz |
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From: <jsa...@gm...> - 2005-04-27 15:12:32
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yes it can look good......but with a little more effort it can look even better:) |
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From: The S. <sco...@ma...> - 2005-04-25 07:46:20
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Yes, this definately has been argued before, but as someone else brought it up this time, I thought it wasn't just me having problems. I personally don't mind which system you use, as long as whoever is using it finds it "usable" and effective. By "production situation" I didn't necessarily mean in a big commercial studio, but rather, "in practise", if thats what you're asking. Also, I have read up on how a lot of other game artists work, and *seen* many texture sheets for a number of games. For example I don't believe DAoC from Mythic Software uses such a system. But- I recall one talented artist had a good timesaving idea for unwrapping his game models and painting them. It shared some similarities with this template system. (IIRC) He was hired by some game company to create say 10 characters for their game, so what he did was model a generic male and female character, and unwrap them how he saw fit. Then he modified those generic characters to form other characters and only needed to make minor adjustments to his UV coords, and then as usual paint the maps. The system sounds like a create timesaver, obviously not the same as a full template system, but this way you dont need to model and unwrap a character from scratch each time. Just thought I'd pass that as a possible idea. * ah, in fact, I remembered who it was, I'll pass a link to his thread, really good characters by the way. http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=210881 <span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________________________<BR>Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at <a href=http://www.mail2world.com target=new>http://www.mail2world.com</a><br> <font color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More!</font></font></span> |
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From: The S. <sco...@ma...> - 2005-04-25 07:48:59
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BTW, check this link out for his finished stuff, and for a look at his texture sheets: http://www.erikasorson.com/gallery_gangwar.html <span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________________________<BR>Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at <a href=http://www.mail2world.com target=new>http://www.mail2world.com</a><br> <font color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More!</font></font></span> |
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From: <jsa...@gm...> - 2005-04-25 13:31:42
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ive seen the characters before....they look awesome....but i never knew that they were modeled like that.....just tweaking existing stuff.....that is a good idea....we should look into something like this...then a template system would work...but it would have to be changed....and another problem is that if you model each character from scrap each one of them will unwrap differently.....you cant expect all of them to unwrap the same...but with something like this it would work to our advantage....ill try to make some characters like this and see what results it get.... |
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From: Thomi R. <th...@on...> - 2005-04-23 01:21:32
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:25, The Scorpion wrote: > Lucullus, about the templates, dont forget that even though you make a > custom texture sheet for each model, you can *still* easily have > multiple textures for it, simply by painting over the unwrap. The only > difference here is that rather than having 1 template for each [generic] > tool, you have a template for a specific tool [, or model]. > that part is true... > So if you have a human, once you unwrap a texture sheet for him, and > paint the appropriate skin/clothes, you can simply paint over that map > any number of times for any variation you need, (i.e. blood, bruises, > other clothes, other variations) > so is this, but it's not really useful. Here's a scenario for you: Lets say we need 5 human PC models. These 5 models are all slightly different, and all modelled by different artists. THey are all unwrapped to a separate UVW map, and textured with a simple clothes texture. In order to give each model another set of clothes, 5 new textures need to be modelled. On top of that, the original models need to be on hand when the textures are made, so the unwrapping can be examined. OTOH, if you use a template that *all* humanoid (or even all male humanoid) models conform to, in order to create another clothes texture you need only create one new texture. Since all the models are unwrapped the same way, artists need not have the models available when the new textures are created. That's the *real* benefit of texture templates: it separates the modelling and texturing processes, allowing them to run independantly of each other. -- Thomi Richards th...@on... http://www.once.net.nz |
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From: <jsa...@gm...> - 2005-04-23 15:49:54
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true, the templates make the texture creating a different process, but i wouldnt be questioning this if the results of the final skinned character were better....i dont like the template because it distorts the texture and what not... |
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