From: Tim J. <ti...@jo...> - 2010-04-01 18:14:27
|
FYI: I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code from a jar file. Here's the scenario: Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't find another jython programmer. Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? I hope this question is not too naive. TIA -- Tim ti...@jo... http://www.akwebsoft.com |
From: Alex G. <ale...@ne...> - 2010-04-01 19:11:50
|
1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > FYI: > I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in > C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. > > I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code > from a jar file. > > Here's the scenario: > > Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > find another jython programmer. > > Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? > I hope this question is not too naive. > TIA > |
From: Tim J. <ti...@jo...> - 2010-04-01 20:00:47
|
* Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: > 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > > FYI: > > I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in > > C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. > > > > I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code > > from a jar file. > > > > Here's the scenario: > > > > Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > > become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > > find another jython programmer. > > > > Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > > up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > > > Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython programmers and want nothing to do with python. I see there are many strategies for decompiling java avail able on the web Can they decompile and procede to make updates using java, or kawa or clojure? -- Tim ti...@jo... http://www.akwebsoft.com |
From: Alex G. <ale...@ne...> - 2010-04-01 20:14:43
|
1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: > >> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> >>> FYI: >>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>> >>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>> from a jar file. >>> >>> Here's the scenario: >>> >>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>> find another jython programmer. >>> >>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>> >>> >> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >> > Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython > programmers and want nothing to do with python. > Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? You can't give those sources to a java programmer and expect them to understand it. It's like decompiling optimized machine code to C. > I see there are many strategies for decompiling java avail able on > the web > > Can they decompile and procede to make updates using java, or kawa > or clojure? > > |
From: andy e <vir...@gm...> - 2010-04-02 00:29:19
|
Theoretically, any JVM-based language (Java, Clojure, Scala, Groovy, etc) can read a .jar file and with the reflection api you should be able to figure out what's going on in the .jar (of course, the better option would be to document it I guess). There shouldn't really be a need to decompile a .jar that I can see. If that's the case, just open source the code. andy 2010/4/1 Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...>: > 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: >> >>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >>> >>>> FYI: >>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>>> >>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>>> from a jar file. >>>> >>>> Here's the scenario: >>>> >>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>>> find another jython programmer. >>>> >>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>>> >>>> >>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >>> >> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython >> programmers and want nothing to do with python. >> > Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files > doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? You can't give > those sources to a java programmer and expect them to understand it. > It's like decompiling optimized machine code to C. >> I see there are many strategies for decompiling java avail able on >> the web >> >> Can they decompile and procede to make updates using java, or kawa >> or clojure? >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > _______________________________________________ > Jython-users mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > |
From: Tim J. <ti...@jo...> - 2010-04-02 01:27:02
|
* Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: > > > >> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > >> > >>> FYI: > >>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in > >>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. > >>> > >>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code > >>> from a jar file. > >>> > >>> Here's the scenario: > >>> > >>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > >>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > >>> find another jython programmer. > >>> > >>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > >>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > >>> > >>> > >> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? > >> > > Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython > > programmers and want nothing to do with python. > > > Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files > doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? I have done nothing with jython. I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. The output from them is all I have to go on. Thanks -- Tim ti...@jo... http://www.akwebsoft.com |
From: Alex G. <ale...@ne...> - 2010-04-02 08:07:30
|
2.4.2010 4:33, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > >> 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> >>> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: >>> >>> >>>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >>>> >>>> >>>>> FYI: >>>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>>>> >>>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>>>> from a jar file. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the scenario: >>>>> >>>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>>>> find another jython programmer. >>>>> >>>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >>>> >>>> >>> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython >>> programmers and want nothing to do with python. >>> >>> >> Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files >> doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? >> > I have done nothing with jython. > I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. > The output from them is all I have to go on. > Thanks > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. |
From: <cl...@br...> - 2010-04-02 13:52:57
|
Dear Alex, Your comment and question: Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. I've already experienced situations you described above in your note and this happened within our development team. There use to be fluctuation of manpower mainly regarding the younger work-force. There also exists different cultural backgrounds depending on the location you work. The situation in US might be different as the one in Finland. In US the Python language often is lectured at the Universities as a primary development framework, very useful for educational purpose. Python started in year 1991, while Java came around 1995. At other places like in Brazil, the students are focused to catch global job opportunities which result in the study of the Java language. Now we have a third trend, which are the dynamically interpreted languages, like PHP, JRuby, Groovy, Python and Jython. They help to streamline the source code (maybe in factor 3), speed up the development through experimentation and consequent use of unit tests. The resulting codes gets more readable, there are features for embedded code deploy and better portability, like for example the capability to run it in a cloud computing environment like the Amazon EC2 or AppEngine. All those dynamic languages are a trend. What we also see is a synergy between the language syntax. I would not be surprised to see pythonic feature to show-up up in the Java 7 syntax. We already see this happing in the Groovy 1.7 (for. ex. closures). If the syntax solution is good it will propagate into the other languages. Now if you want a really sharp programmer, he will start to learn one of the dynamic languages. To answer your question: How long its takes a coder to dive into such a new technology? The learning of Python syntax having a Java background will not take more than two month doing self-study in part-time. There is high quality training material available from the jython.org site, also the cookbook from Mr. Dave Kuhlman and the brand new Jython book. The critical point is if a coder is willing to face new technologies and learn it quickly. While Java is the COBOL of century 21, the Jython language is fun (..this counts for me..). People that starts learning it, use to get addicted, its a positive experience. In that sense and with a small training effort, you can expect a Java coder to carry on. Hope you find the answer for your doubts and it gives you the arguments for motivation of the Java work-force. Regards, Claude Claude Falbriard Developer AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil phone: +55 13 9762 4094 cell: +55 13 8117 3316 e-mail: cl...@br... From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> To: "jyt...@li..." <jyt...@li...> Date: 04/02/2010 05:02 AM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems 2.4.2010 4:33, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > >> 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> >>> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: >>> >>> >>>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >>>> >>>> >>>>> FYI: >>>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>>>> >>>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>>>> from a jar file. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the scenario: >>>>> >>>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>>>> find another jython programmer. >>>>> >>>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >>>> >>>> >>> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython >>> programmers and want nothing to do with python. >>> >>> >> Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files >> doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? >> > I have done nothing with jython. > I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. > The output from them is all I have to go on. > Thanks > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Jython-users mailing list Jyt...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users |
From: Alex G. <ale...@ne...> - 2010-04-02 15:14:18
|
2.4.2010 16:47, cl...@br... kirjoitti: > > Dear Alex, > > Your comment and question: > > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If > the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to > Java programmers and expect them to carry on. > This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. > > I've already experienced situations you described above in your note > and this happened within our development team. There use to be > fluctuation of manpower mainly regarding the younger work-force. There > also exists different cultural backgrounds depending on the location > you work. The situation in US might be different as the one in > Finland. In US the Python language often is lectured at the > Universities as a primary development framework, very useful for > educational purpose. Python started in year 1991, while Java came > around 1995. At other places like in Brazil, the students are focused > to catch global job opportunities which result in the study of the > Java language. Now we have a third trend, which are the dynamically > interpreted languages, like PHP, JRuby, Groovy, Python and Jython. > They help to streamline the source code (maybe in factor 3), speed up > the development through experimentation and consequent use of unit > tests. The resulting codes gets more readable, there are features for > embedded code deploy and better portability, like for example the > capability to run it in a cloud computing environment like the Amazon > EC2 or AppEngine. All those dynamic languages are a trend. > > What we also see is a synergy between the language syntax. I would > not be surprised to see pythonic feature to show-up up in the Java 7 > syntax. We already see this happing in the Groovy 1.7 (for. ex. > closures). If the syntax solution is good it will propagate into the > other languages. Now if you want a really sharp programmer, he will > start to learn one of the dynamic languages. To answer your question: > How long its takes a coder to dive into such a new technology? The > learning of Python syntax having a Java background will not take more > than two month doing self-study in part-time. There is high quality > training material available from the jython.org > <http://www.jython.org> site, also the cookbook from Mr. Dave Kuhlman > and the brand new Jython book. The critical point is if a coder is > willing to face new technologies and learn it quickly. > > While Java is the COBOL of century 21, the Jython language is fun > (..this counts for me..). People that starts learning it, use to get > addicted, its a positive experience. In that sense and with a small > training effort, you can expect a Java coder to carry on. > > Hope you find the answer for your doubts and it gives you the > arguments for motivation of the Java work-force. > I'm not sure why you wrote all this, but I think you missed my point here. Only a developer with intimate knowledge of the Jython interpreter's internals stands any chance at figuring out a class file that was constructed by Jython. Tim was asking how Java programmers (with no Python knowledge whatsoever) could continue his work based only on a jar file full of such class files. I was just saying that it's not going to happen. > Regards, > Claude > > * > Claude Falbriard > Developer > AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil > phone: +55 13 9762 4094 > cell: +55 13 8117 3316 > e-mail: cl...@br... > * > > > From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> > To: "jyt...@li..." > <jyt...@li...> > Date: 04/02/2010 05:02 AM > Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding > systems > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > 2.4.2010 4:33, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > > > >> 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > >> > >>> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> FYI: > >>>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in > >>>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. > >>>>> > >>>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code > >>>>> from a jar file. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here's the scenario: > >>>>> > >>>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > >>>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > >>>>> find another jython programmer. > >>>>> > >>>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > >>>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython > >>> programmers and want nothing to do with python. > >>> > >>> > >> Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files > >> doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? > >> > > I have done nothing with jython. > > I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. > > The output from them is all I have to go on. > > Thanks > > > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If > the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to > Java programmers and expect them to carry on. > This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > _______________________________________________ > Jython-users mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > > |
From: Tim J. <ti...@jo...> - 2010-04-02 18:50:52
|
* Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> [100402 07:28]: > 2.4.2010 16:47, cl...@br... kirjoitti: >> > I'm not sure why you wrote all this, but I think you missed my point > here. Only a developer with intimate knowledge of the Jython > interpreter's internals stands any chance at figuring out a class file > that was constructed by Jython. Tim was asking how Java programmers > (with no Python knowledge whatsoever) could continue his work based only > on a jar file full of such class files. I appreciate the answers. They are helping to edify me and to help me to make some decisions. > I was just saying that it's not going to happen. :) Never say never! I expect something like the above will happen, but I'm not going to put money or make my research/business decisions on when or how. And I don't know enough about jython - java to make further inquiries into this subject right now. Thank you very much for your input. -- Tim ti...@jo... http://www.akwebsoft.com |
From: <cl...@br...> - 2010-04-02 19:28:45
|
Dear Alex and Tim, Here's the scenario: > >>> > >>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > >>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > >>> find another jython programmer. > >>> > >>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > >>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > >>> > >>> > >> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? > >> > > Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython > > programmers and want nothing to do with python. My remark: The scenario described above by Tim does not even show any requirement for decompile (this is an erroneous view from a Java perspective). The correct answer is: Provide the source. I agree with you, the attempt to decompile is a whole other story. Distributing libraries with class files only, indeed is not usual practice among the Jython programmers, nor it is in the open source community. Maybe this point is not about the smooth transition of Python to Java knowledge and the preparedness of the Java programmers, but its about best practice for developers that use dynamically interpreted languages like Python or Jython. Watch it as a script, treat it like a script, preserve the source and you should be safe for future maintenance by other professionals. The class file is what matters for the the JVM. its not for us. This statement is also valid for the .jar packages. The source is also the key for future builds on the next releases. Indeed we are on same line, without the source its not going to happen. Regards, Claude Claude Falbriard Developer AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil phone: +55 13 9762 4094 cell: +55 13 8117 3316 e-mail: cl...@br... From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> To: jyt...@li... Date: 04/02/2010 03:12 PM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems 2.4.2010 16:47, cl...@br... kirjoitti: Dear Alex, Your comment and question: Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. I've already experienced situations you described above in your note and this happened within our development team. There use to be fluctuation of manpower mainly regarding the younger work-force. There also exists different cultural backgrounds depending on the location you work. The situation in US might be different as the one in Finland. In US the Python language often is lectured at the Universities as a primary development framework, very useful for educational purpose. Python started in year 1991, while Java came around 1995. At other places like in Brazil, the students are focused to catch global job opportunities which result in the study of the Java language. Now we have a third trend, which are the dynamically interpreted languages, like PHP, JRuby, Groovy, Python and Jython. They help to streamline the source code (maybe in factor 3), speed up the development through experimentation and consequent use of unit tests. The resulting codes gets more readable, there are features for embedded code deploy and better portability, like for example the capability to run it in a cloud computing environment like the Amazon EC2 or AppEngine. All those dynamic languages are a trend. What we also see is a synergy between the language syntax. I would not be surprised to see pythonic feature to show-up up in the Java 7 syntax. We already see this happing in the Groovy 1.7 (for. ex. closures). If the syntax solution is good it will propagate into the other languages. Now if you want a really sharp programmer, he will start to learn one of the dynamic languages. To answer your question: How long its takes a coder to dive into such a new technology? The learning of Python syntax having a Java background will not take more than two month doing self-study in part-time. There is high quality training material available from the jython.org site, also the cookbook from Mr. Dave Kuhlman and the brand new Jython book. The critical point is if a coder is willing to face new technologies and learn it quickly. While Java is the COBOL of century 21, the Jython language is fun (..this counts for me..). People that starts learning it, use to get addicted, its a positive experience. In that sense and with a small training effort, you can expect a Java coder to carry on. Hope you find the answer for your doubts and it gives you the arguments for motivation of the Java work-force. I'm not sure why you wrote all this, but I think you missed my point here. Only a developer with intimate knowledge of the Jython interpreter's internals stands any chance at figuring out a class file that was constructed by Jython. Tim was asking how Java programmers (with no Python knowledge whatsoever) could continue his work based only on a jar file full of such class files. I was just saying that it's not going to happen. Regards, Claude Claude Falbriard Developer AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil phone: +55 13 9762 4094 cell: +55 13 8117 3316 e-mail: cl...@br... From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> To: "jyt...@li..." <jyt...@li...> Date: 04/02/2010 05:02 AM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems 2.4.2010 4:33, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > >> 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> >>> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: >>> >>> >>>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >>>> >>>> >>>>> FYI: >>>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>>>> >>>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>>>> from a jar file. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the scenario: >>>>> >>>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>>>> find another jython programmer. >>>>> >>>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >>>> >>>> >>> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython >>> programmers and want nothing to do with python. >>> >>> >> Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files >> doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? >> > I have done nothing with jython. > I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. > The output from them is all I have to go on. > Thanks > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Jython-users mailing list Jyt...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Jython-users mailing list Jyt...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users |
From: Sivaram v. k. R. (S.) <ssi...@fo...> - 2010-04-09 12:13:30
|
I certainly agree on sharing the code, as python is more of a script....and should be treated as a script, But it should be noted the below stated scenario is not something purely hypothetical as lot of companies have source-code without supporting documentation, class files and exe's without documents or source code etc. in future it is quite possible that companies will have a mission critical applications developed using jython as class files and the sources could be lost.... in such a scenario what can a programmer do ? 1.) Decompile Jython class into Java using a decompiler, then attempt to understand the flow of logic, a good debugger/profiler can help a bit in this, but this will be painful process. :-) 2.) A brilliant lazy (aka Larry wall ) programmer might step in [ feeling too lazy to read the java] might develop a decompiler for jython, he may later donate the code to the community, which can grow into a important support utility for jython. May be this how jython will blossom into an enterprise platform with lot of like supporting tools around it. Regards, Siva ________________________________ From: cl...@br... [mailto:cl...@br...] Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:53 AM To: jyt...@li... Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems Dear Alex and Tim, Here's the scenario: > >>> > >>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I > >>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't > >>> find another jython programmer. > >>> > >>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick > >>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? > >>> > >>> > >> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? > >> > > Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython > > programmers and want nothing to do with python. My remark: The scenario described above by Tim does not even show any requirement for decompile (this is an erroneous view from a Java perspective). The correct answer is: Provide the source. I agree with you, the attempt to decompile is a whole other story. Distributing libraries with class files only, indeed is not usual practice among the Jython programmers, nor it is in the open source community. Maybe this point is not about the smooth transition of Python to Java knowledge and the preparedness of the Java programmers, but its about best practice for developers that use dynamically interpreted languages like Python or Jython. Watch it as a script, treat it like a script, preserve the source and you should be safe for future maintenance by other professionals. The class file is what matters for the the JVM. its not for us. This statement is also valid for the .jar packages. The source is also the key for future builds on the next releases. Indeed we are on same line, without the source its not going to happen. Regards, Claude Claude Falbriard Developer AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil phone: +55 13 9762 4094 cell: +55 13 8117 3316 e-mail: cl...@br... From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> To: jyt...@li... Date: 04/02/2010 03:12 PM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems ________________________________ 2.4.2010 16:47, cl...@br... <mailto:cl...@br...> kirjoitti: Dear Alex, Your comment and question: Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. This is common sense regardless of what languages we're talking about. I've already experienced situations you described above in your note and this happened within our development team. There use to be fluctuation of manpower mainly regarding the younger work-force. There also exists different cultural backgrounds depending on the location you work. The situation in US might be different as the one in Finland. In US the Python language often is lectured at the Universities as a primary development framework, very useful for educational purpose. Python started in year 1991, while Java came around 1995. At other places like in Brazil, the students are focused to catch global job opportunities which result in the study of the Java language. Now we have a third trend, which are the dynamically interpreted languages, like PHP, JRuby, Groovy, Python and Jython. They help to streamline the source code (maybe in factor 3), speed up the development through experimentation and consequent use of unit tests. The resulting codes gets more readable, there are features for embedded code deploy and better portability, like for example the capability to run it in a cloud computing environment like the Amazon EC2 or AppEngine. All those dynamic languages are a trend. What we also see is a synergy between the language syntax. I would not be surprised to see pythonic feature to show-up up in the Java 7 syntax. We already see this happing in the Groovy 1.7 (for. ex. closures). If the syntax solution is good it will propagate into the other languages. Now if you want a really sharp programmer, he will start to learn one of the dynamic languages. To answer your question: How long its takes a coder to dive into such a new technology? The learning of Python syntax having a Java background will not take more than two month doing self-study in part-time. There is high quality training material available from the jython.org <http://www.jython.org/> site, also the cookbook from Mr. Dave Kuhlman and the brand new Jython book. The critical point is if a coder is willing to face new technologies and learn it quickly. While Java is the COBOL of century 21, the Jython language is fun (..this counts for me..). People that starts learning it, use to get addicted, its a positive experience. In that sense and with a small training effort, you can expect a Java coder to carry on. Hope you find the answer for your doubts and it gives you the arguments for motivation of the Java work-force. I'm not sure why you wrote all this, but I think you missed my point here. Only a developer with intimate knowledge of the Jython interpreter's internals stands any chance at figuring out a class file that was constructed by Jython. Tim was asking how Java programmers (with no Python knowledge whatsoever) could continue his work based only on a jar file full of such class files. I was just saying that it's not going to happen. Regards, Claude Claude Falbriard Developer AMS Hortolândia / SP - Brazil phone: +55 13 9762 4094 cell: +55 13 8117 3316 e-mail: cl...@br... <mailto:cl...@br...> From: Alex Grönholm <ale...@ne...> <mailto:ale...@ne...> To: "jyt...@li..." <mailto:jyt...@li...> <jyt...@li...> <mailto:jyt...@li...> Date: 04/02/2010 05:02 AM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Decompiling .jar files for other coding systems ________________________________ 2.4.2010 4:33, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: > * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> <mailto:ale...@ne...> [100401 12:28]: > >> 1.4.2010 23:07, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >> >>> * Alex Grönholm<ale...@ne...> <mailto:ale...@ne...> [100401 11:27]: >>> >>> >>>> 1.4.2010 20:56, Tim Johnson kirjoitti: >>>> >>>> >>>>> FYI: >>>>> I've been a programmer for over 20 years, 8 of it in python, 12 in >>>>> C, but I am a total noob when it comes to java. >>>>> >>>>> I've played around a little with jar and see that I can extract code >>>>> from a jar file. >>>>> >>>>> Here's the scenario: >>>>> >>>>> Suppose I develop a project in jython, I deliver jar files and I >>>>> become a luddite, get hit by a bus or something and the client can't >>>>> find another jython programmer. >>>>> >>>>> Java programmers are available. How can a java programmer "pick >>>>> up" after me? Or a clojure programmer or a kawa programmer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Uh, provide the source (.py), not compiled class files? >>>> >>>> >>> Suppose the follow-up programmers are *not* python/jypython >>> programmers and want nothing to do with python. >>> >>> >> Well then you are SOL. Because decompiling jython-made class files >> doesn't give you reasonable java code. Have you tried? >> > I have done nothing with jython. > I ran some jar files from sea monkey as in jar xvf myfile.jar. > The output from them is all I have to go on. > Thanks > Jar files are just zip files with a different file name extension. If the code was written in Python, you can't just give those class files to Java programmers and expect them to carry on. 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