Thread: Re: [jdee-devel] My role in the JDEE project
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From: Paul K. <Pau...@ma...> - 2008-01-05 07:27:48
|
Hi Paul, Contributing to the JDEE might be fun for the occasional contributor who doesn't have to review the changes and update the doc. I've been performing those functions all along. I've reviewed every patch to the JDEE and in many cases improved them significantly from what was submitted to me. I've also provided the doc for contributed features. I'm concerned that if I step out of the loop, quality will slip. How can that be avoided? Paul Kinnucan > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Landes [mailto:la...@ma...] > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:55 PM > To: Paul Kinnucan > Cc: Phi...@ne...; Carlos Konstanski; Len Trigg; jdee- > de...@so... > Subject: RE: My role in the JDEE project >=20 > The process you describe here is very close to what we do at Bank of > America and its a lot of process and ceremony. Not that it is all > bad, but as you know, release meetings, code reviews, etc. takes a lot > of time. For example, can you elaborate on what you mean by "get them > reviewed?" This seems like a lot of everyone's time including yours, > particularly when you add on time for the release meetings you're > talking about. >=20 > Frankly, what you describe here is what I do all day and I think it > takes a lot of the fun out of it. Writing JDEE code, at least what > I've done with the patches I've submitted, has been more closer to > other open source projects I've contributed in the way it is more > organic and enjoyable. >=20 > I think we simply need one or two people with access to commit patches > and do a little documentation and releases for the short term until > the project gets back the momentum it had. Only after this should we > consider feature enhancements etc. >=20 > This is all my opinion, but seems to be the kind of thing that seems > prudent based on previous experience. >=20 >=20 > Paul Kinnucan writes: > > Paul, > > > > Administering the JDEE project is not time-consuming. What is > > time-consuming is making and submitting code changes, updating the doc, > > and tech support. Recently I have not had the time to do a lot of > > coding, doc'ing, and tech supporting of the JDEE. As a result, the JDEE > > has come to a standstill. > > That is why there have been no releases in the last two years. I am > > hoping that the superior and widely used support tools afforded by > > SourceForge, e.g., Subversion, wiki pages, bug trackers', etc., will > > encourage others to pitch in with the work of maintaining, enhancing, > > and releasing the JDEE. That will allow me to focus on administering > and > > leading the JDEE, for which I believe I will have adequate time. > > > > What I propose is that you and other team members look at the bug, > > enhancement, and patch trackers, pick off items from them, implement > > them in your sandboxes, get them reviewed, commit them to the > > repository, and update the doc for user-visible changes. When a > critical > > mass of changes to the repository has been made, we'll make the next > > release. What the critical mass is can be determined by consensus among > > the team members. How quickly that mass is reached will depend on how > > much time team members spend on coding and doc'ing. If most of the > > coding and doc'ing is left up to me, it won't come that quickly. > > > > One thing we might do is have a release meeting (via the developer's > > mailing list) in which we decide what the content of the release will > be > > and the target date. The content would be determined by reviewing the > > trackers and choosing the enhancements and bug fixes that we determine > > to be most critical to the release. Each team member can submit a list > > of the tracker items that they would like to see implemented and > ideally > > would commit themselves to implement > > > > We could designate a release leader on a rotating basis. The release > > leader would be responsible for tracking progress, and ensuring that > all > > release targets have been met, and building the release zip files and > > posting them on the JDEE web site. BTW, the JDEE uses make to build the > > release zip files. One make command builds both the .zip and tar.gzip > > versions of the distribution. So building the distribution is a snap. > > > > These are just some thoughts. > > > > I am open to any and all suggestions for how to run the JDEE project. > > > > > > Paul K. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Paul Landes [mailto:la...@ma...] > > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:24 AM > > > To: Paul Kinnucan > > > Cc: Phi...@ne...; Carlos Konstanski; Len Trigg > > > Subject: My role in the JDEE project > > > > > > I realize there are some time saving tools at sourceforge, but how > > > does that change anything? > > > > > > Maybe I don't understand what you mean to do in your new role. Do > > > want those with commit access to make the patches and then wait for > > > your authorization to put out a release? If you don't have any more > > > time now than you did before, how is the project going continue if > all > > > decisions, assignments, releases (and all the others you mentioned) > > > have to be funneled through you? Will you really have time for all > of > > > this? > > > > > > I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't see how > > > this model will work without your time investment. > > > > > > > > > Paul Kinnucan writes: > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > > > > > After experiencing first-hand SourceForge's great project > > management > > > > tools, I have reconsidered my decision to step down from > leadership > > of > > > > the JDEE project. For the time being, I plan to continue in my > role > > as > > > > the project's "benevolent dictator," i.e., continue to have final > > > > authority on features, releases, software architecture, coding > > > > standards, developer assignments, etc. I would hope to hand off > > > > responsibility for many of these areas to other developers with > > > > demonstrated commitment to the JDEE project. For example, I would > > be > > > > perfectly content to hand over responsibility for making releases, > > > > development assignments, etc., to other project members who are > > willing > > > > and able to take on these responsibilities. > > > > > > > > If you still want to join the project as a developer, let me know > > and I > > > > will add you to the membership list. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Paul Kinnucan > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Paul Landes [mailto:la...@ma...] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 8:23 PM > > > > > To: Paul Kinnucan > > > > > Subject: RE: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > > > > > not working > > > > > > > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > > > > > > > My sourceforge.net account is "zenos000". > > > > > > > > > > Have you decided what your involvement will be in the project > > going > > > > > forward. Who's going to run the project from now on. > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to know how you intend on transitioning things before I > > > > > commit to anything. I hope you understand. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul Kinnucan writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Carlos, Paul, and Philip, > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you like to join the SourceForge JDEE project as a > > > developer? > > > > In > > > > > > this role, you would be able to commit changes to the JDEE > CVS > > > > source > > > > > > repository and update the documentation. If you would like to > > > > become a > > > > > > JDEE developer, you should create a SourceForge account for > > > > yourself, > > > > > if > > > > > > you have not already done so, and send my your SourceForge > > account > > > > > name. > > > > > > I will then add you to the list of JDEE developers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Len Trigg [mailto:le...@ne...] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:36 PM > > > > > > > To: Paul Kinnucan > > > > > > > Cc: Carlos Konstanski > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: > > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > > > > > > > not working > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see that you have got as far as creating an initial > > project on > > > > > > > sourceforge for jdee. Can you assign joint project admin > > > > permissions > > > > > > > to a few of us so that we can begin some of the work? Eg > > moving > > > > docs, > > > > > > > web pages, setting up new mailing lists, is something we > > could > > > be > > > > > > > starting on now. Shifting the source repo is probably > better > > > done > > > > by > > > > > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest myself, Carlos, Paul Landes, and Phil Lord. My > > > > sourceforge > > > > > > > account name is lenbok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18/12/2007, at 3:07 AM, "Paul Kinnucan" > > > > > > > <Pau...@ma...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I plan to move the JDEE to SourceForge as soon as > > possible. I > > > > had > > > > > > > > hoped > > > > > > > > to do this earlier but have not been able to do so > because > > of > > > a > > > > > host > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > job- and family-related issues as well as the holidays. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please be patient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> From: Carlos Konstanski > > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] > > > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:58 PM > > > > > > > >> To: Len Trigg > > > > > > > >> Cc: Carlos Konstanski; Paul Kinnucan; jd...@su... > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: > > > > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > > > > > > > >> not working > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> OK, I get it, you want someone to move JDEE now. I did > > > > express my > > > > > > > >> willingness to do the dirty work of moving JDEE. Paul > > > > Kinnucan > > > > > > > >> responded (in this very thread) by saying that it would > > be > > > > best if > > > > > > he > > > > > > > >> performed the task. That's where we stand now. We wait > > > until > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > >> gets an opportunity to do the migration, and then we > > carry on > > > > with > > > > > > > >> patch-applying and such in the new repository. If Paul > > were > > > > to > > > > > ask > > > > > > > >> for someone else to do the work, Paul Landes and I would > > both > > > > be > > > > > > > >> available. Out of respect for Paul Kinnucan's great > > > > contribution, > > > > > > I > > > > > > > >> think we should let him call the shots re: the migration > > of > > > > his > > > > > > code. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Carlos Konstanski > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> At Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:57:58 +1300, > > > > > > > >> Len Trigg wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Hi Carlos, > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> You seemed ready, willing, and able to move JDEE to > > > > sourceforge. > > > > > > > > Can > > > > > > > >>> you just go ahead and do it please? It seems that if > we > > > > continue > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >>> wait for Paul, we could be waiting indefinitely. If > > Paul > > > > finds > > > > > > time > > > > > > > >>> to help in the process that's OK, but we should not > > further > > > > delay > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>> move. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Cheers, > > > > > > > >>> Len. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> At Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:47:15 -0500, > > > > > > > >>> Paul Kinnucan wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Hi Carlos, > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> I think it would be best if I moved the JDEE myself to > > > > > > > > Sourceforge. I > > > > > > > >>>> will have this completed by next weekend. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Paul > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >>>>> From: Carlos Konstanski > > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] > > > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 5:06 PM > > > > > > > >>>>> To: jd...@su... > > > > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: jde-import-kill-extra-imports not > working > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> At Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:58:25 +0000, > > > > > > > >>>>> Phillip Lord wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> I would move to sourceforge or gna.org. This is > > > > > > > > straightforward > > > > > > > >>>> enough. > > > > > > > >>>>> Then > > > > > > > >>>>>> pull the current cvs into a svn as quite a lot more > > > people > > > > are > > > > > > > >> using > > > > > > > >>>>> this > > > > > > > >>>>>> nowadays (it's not essential though). > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> The jobs that need doing are: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> 1) checking patches for people without svn/cvs > > access. > > > > > > > >>>>>> 2) adding people to svn/cvs where appropriate > > > > > > > >>>>>> 3) organising a release schedule. In practice, this > > means > > > > > > > > doing a > > > > > > > >>>> new > > > > > > > >>>>> release > > > > > > > >>>>>> when ever enough patches have come in. > > > > > > > >>>>>> 4) Updating the website with new tarballs, new zips. > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> As an added extra: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> 5) add a top level makefile to build packages for > the > > > > various > > > > > > > >>>> linuxes -- > > > > > > > >>>>> rpm, > > > > > > > >>>>>> gentoo and the like. Or add autoconf support which > > > > should > > > > > > > > bring > > > > > > > >>>> the > > > > > > > >>>>> former > > > > > > > >>>>>> nearly for free I think. I'm not a real package > > expert. > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Once the release mechanism is fixed, then use can be > > made > > > > of > > > > > > > >>>> existing > > > > > > > >>>>>> patches. This would at least keep JDE ticking over. > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> I'm afraid I am not volunteering here; I rarely code > > Java > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > >>>> days, so > > > > > > > >>>>> I can > > > > > > > >>>>>> live without. But it would be nice to have the > option > > to > > > > use > > > > > > > > Emacs > > > > > > > >>>> for > > > > > > > >>>>> those > > > > > > > >>>>>> occasions that I do. > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Phil > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> OK, the weekend is here and I am ready to do this > > thing. > > > > First > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > >>>>> all, do we have buyoff from the author/current > > maintainer > > > > to > > > > > > > > move > > > > > > > >> JDEE > > > > > > > >>>>> to sourceforge? I hereby officially ask the > > individual(s) > > > > in > > > > > > > > charge > > > > > > > >>>>> if it's all right for me to set up a JDEE sourceforge > > > > project > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> move > > > > > > > >>>>> the CVS repository there, in accordance with the > > promises > > > I > > > > > made > > > > > > > >>>>> earlier in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Paul Landes > > > > > la...@ma... > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Paul Landes > > > la...@ma... >=20 >=20 > -- > Paul Landes > la...@ma... |
From: Phillip L. <phi...@ne...> - 2008-01-07 17:33:54
|
It's a question of whether it needs to be formal or not, is all. Starting off with a degree of code review makes sense, for new contributors. It's not necessary all the time, though. Once a contributor has submitted a number of successful patches, then they probably don't need reviewing any more. Errors will be picked up by people using things. The only real concern is that it takes too much effort. At the current time, the quality of JDE is slipping simply because the code base is rusting. Phil >>>>> "PK" == Paul Kinnucan <Pau...@ma...> writes: PK> Contributing to the JDEE might be fun for the occasional contributor who PK> doesn't have to review the changes and update the doc. I've been PK> performing those functions all along. I've reviewed every patch to the PK> JDEE and in many cases improved them significantly from what was PK> submitted to me. I've also provided the doc for contributed features. PK> I'm concerned that if I step out of the loop, quality will slip. How can PK> that be avoided? PK> Paul Kinnucan >> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes [mailto:la...@ma...] >> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:55 PM To: Paul Kinnucan Cc: >> Phi...@ne...; Carlos Konstanski; Len Trigg; jdee- >> de...@so... Subject: RE: My role in the JDEE project >> >> The process you describe here is very close to what we do at Bank of >> America and its a lot of process and ceremony. Not that it is all bad, >> but as you know, release meetings, code reviews, etc. takes a lot of >> time. For example, can you elaborate on what you mean by "get them >> reviewed?" This seems like a lot of everyone's time including yours, >> particularly when you add on time for the release meetings you're talking >> about. >> >> Frankly, what you describe here is what I do all day and I think it takes >> a lot of the fun out of it. Writing JDEE code, at least what I've done >> with the patches I've submitted, has been more closer to other open >> source projects I've contributed in the way it is more organic and >> enjoyable. >> >> I think we simply need one or two people with access to commit patches >> and do a little documentation and releases for the short term until the >> project gets back the momentum it had. Only after this should we consider >> feature enhancements etc. >> >> This is all my opinion, but seems to be the kind of thing that seems >> prudent based on previous experience. >> >> >> Paul Kinnucan writes: >> > Paul, >> > >> > Administering the JDEE project is not time-consuming. What is >> > time-consuming is making and submitting code changes, updating the PK> doc, >> > and tech support. Recently I have not had the time to do a lot of >> > coding, doc'ing, and tech supporting of the JDEE. As a result, the PK> JDEE >> > has come to a standstill. That is why there have been no releases in >> > the last two years. I am hoping that the superior and widely used >> > support tools afforded by SourceForge, e.g., Subversion, wiki pages, >> > bug trackers', etc., PK> will >> > encourage others to pitch in with the work of maintaining, PK> enhancing, >> > and releasing the JDEE. That will allow me to focus on PK> administering >> and >> > leading the JDEE, for which I believe I will have adequate time. >> > >> > What I propose is that you and other team members look at the bug, >> > enhancement, and patch trackers, pick off items from them, PK> implement >> > them in your sandboxes, get them reviewed, commit them to the >> > repository, and update the doc for user-visible changes. When a >> critical >> > mass of changes to the repository has been made, we'll make the PK> next >> > release. What the critical mass is can be determined by consensus PK> among >> > the team members. How quickly that mass is reached will depend on PK> how >> > much time team members spend on coding and doc'ing. If most of the >> > coding and doc'ing is left up to me, it won't come that quickly. >> > >> > One thing we might do is have a release meeting (via the PK> developer's >> > mailing list) in which we decide what the content of the release PK> will >> be >> > and the target date. The content would be determined by reviewing PK> the >> > trackers and choosing the enhancements and bug fixes that we PK> determine >> > to be most critical to the release. Each team member can submit a PK> list >> > of the tracker items that they would like to see implemented and >> ideally >> > would commit themselves to implement >> > >> > We could designate a release leader on a rotating basis. The PK> release >> > leader would be responsible for tracking progress, and ensuring PK> that >> all >> > release targets have been met, and building the release zip files PK> and >> > posting them on the JDEE web site. BTW, the JDEE uses make to build PK> the >> > release zip files. One make command builds both the .zip and PK> tar.gzip >> > versions of the distribution. So building the distribution is a PK> snap. >> > >> > These are just some thoughts. >> > >> > I am open to any and all suggestions for how to run the JDEE PK> project. >> > >> > >> > Paul K. >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes >> > > [mailto:la...@ma...] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:24 AM To: >> > > Paul Kinnucan Cc: Phi...@ne...; Carlos Konstanski; >> > > Len Trigg Subject: My role in the JDEE project >> > > >> > > I realize there are some time saving tools at sourceforge, but PK> how >> > > does that change anything? >> > > >> > > Maybe I don't understand what you mean to do in your new role. PK> Do >> > > want those with commit access to make the patches and then wait PK> for >> > > your authorization to put out a release? If you don't have any PK> more >> > > time now than you did before, how is the project going continue PK> if >> all >> > > decisions, assignments, releases (and all the others you PK> mentioned) >> > > have to be funneled through you? Will you really have time for PK> all >> of >> > > this? >> > > >> > > I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't see PK> how >> > > this model will work without your time investment. >> > > >> > > >> > > Paul Kinnucan writes: >> > > > Hi Paul, >> > > > >> > > > After experiencing first-hand SourceForge's great project >> > management >> > > > tools, I have reconsidered my decision to step down from >> leadership >> > of >> > > > the JDEE project. For the time being, I plan to continue in my >> role >> > as >> > > > the project's "benevolent dictator," i.e., continue to have PK> final >> > > > authority on features, releases, software architecture, coding >> > > > standards, developer assignments, etc. I would hope to hand PK> off >> > > > responsibility for many of these areas to other developers PK> with >> > > > demonstrated commitment to the JDEE project. For example, I PK> would >> > be >> > > > perfectly content to hand over responsibility for making PK> releases, >> > > > development assignments, etc., to other project members who PK> are >> > willing >> > > > and able to take on these responsibilities. >> > > > >> > > > If you still want to join the project as a developer, let me PK> know >> > and I >> > > > will add you to the membership list. >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Paul Kinnucan >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes >> > > > > [mailto:la...@ma...] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 8:23 >> > > > > PM To: Paul Kinnucan Subject: RE: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: >> > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports >> > > > > not working >> > > > > >> > > > > Hi Paul, >> > > > > >> > > > > My sourceforge.net account is "zenos000". >> > > > > >> > > > > Have you decided what your involvement will be in the PK> project >> > going >> > > > > forward. Who's going to run the project from now on. >> > > > > >> > > > > I'd like to know how you intend on transitioning things PK> before I >> > > > > commit to anything. I hope you understand. >> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Paul Kinnucan writes: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Carlos, Paul, and Philip, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Would you like to join the SourceForge JDEE project as a >> > > developer? >> > > > In >> > > > > > this role, you would be able to commit changes to the PK> JDEE >> CVS >> > > > source >> > > > > > repository and update the documentation. If you would PK> like to >> > > > become a >> > > > > > JDEE developer, you should create a SourceForge account PK> for >> > > > yourself, >> > > > > if >> > > > > > you have not already done so, and send my your PK> SourceForge >> > account >> > > > > name. >> > > > > > I will then add you to the list of JDEE developers. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Paul K. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Len Trigg >> > > > > > > [mailto:le...@ne...] Sent: Monday, December 17, >> > > > > > > 2007 12:36 PM To: Paul Kinnucan Cc: Carlos Konstanski >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: >> > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports >> > > > > > > not working >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Paul, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I see that you have got as far as creating an initial >> > project on >> > > > > > > sourceforge for jdee. Can you assign joint project PK> admin >> > > > permissions >> > > > > > > to a few of us so that we can begin some of the work? PK> Eg >> > moving >> > > > docs, >> > > > > > > web pages, setting up new mailing lists, is something PK> we >> > could >> > > be >> > > > > > > starting on now. Shifting the source repo is probably >> better >> > > done >> > > > by >> > > > > > > you. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I suggest myself, Carlos, Paul Landes, and Phil Lord. PK> My >> > > > sourceforge >> > > > > > > account name is lenbok. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Cheers, Len >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 18/12/2007, at 3:07 AM, "Paul Kinnucan" >> > > > > > > <Pau...@ma...> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi, >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I plan to move the JDEE to SourceForge as soon as >> > possible. I >> > > > had >> > > > > > > > hoped to do this earlier but have not been able to do so >> because >> > of >> > > a >> > > > > host >> > > > > > > > of job- and family-related issues as well as the PK> holidays. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Please be patient. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Paul >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Konstanski >> > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] >> > > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:58 PM To: Len Trigg >> > > > > > > >> Cc: Carlos Konstanski; Paul Kinnucan; jd...@su... >> > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: >> > > > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports >> > > > > > > >> not working >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> OK, I get it, you want someone to move JDEE now. I PK> did >> > > > express my >> > > > > > > >> willingness to do the dirty work of moving JDEE. PK> Paul >> > > > Kinnucan >> > > > > > > >> responded (in this very thread) by saying that it PK> would >> > be >> > > > best if >> > > > > > he >> > > > > > > >> performed the task. That's where we stand now. We PK> wait >> > > until >> > > > > Paul >> > > > > > > >> gets an opportunity to do the migration, and then we >> > carry on >> > > > with >> > > > > > > >> patch-applying and such in the new repository. If PK> Paul >> > were >> > > > to >> > > > > ask >> > > > > > > >> for someone else to do the work, Paul Landes and I PK> would >> > both >> > > > be >> > > > > > > >> available. Out of respect for Paul Kinnucan's great >> > > > contribution, >> > > > > > I >> > > > > > > >> think we should let him call the shots re: the PK> migration >> > of >> > > > his >> > > > > > code. >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> Carlos Konstanski >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> At Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:57:58 +1300, >> > > > > > > >> Len Trigg wrote: >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> Hi Carlos, >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> You seemed ready, willing, and able to move JDEE to >> > > > sourceforge. >> > > > > > > > Can >> > > > > > > >>> you just go ahead and do it please? It seems that PK> if >> we >> > > > continue >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > >>> wait for Paul, we could be waiting indefinitely. PK> If >> > Paul >> > > > finds >> > > > > > time >> > > > > > > >>> to help in the process that's OK, but we should not >> > further >> > > > delay >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > >>> move. >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> Cheers, Len. >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> >> > > > > > > >>> At Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:47:15 -0500, >> > > > > > > >>> Paul Kinnucan wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Hi Carlos, >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> I think it would be best if I moved the JDEE PK> myself to >> > > > > > > > Sourceforge. I >> > > > > > > >>>> will have this completed by next weekend. >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Paul >> > > > > > > >>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Konstanski >> > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] >> > > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 5:06 PM To: >> > > > > > > >>>>> jd...@su... Subject: Re: >> > > > > > > >>>>> jde-import-kill-extra-imports not >> working >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> At Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:58:25 +0000, >> > > > > > > >>>>> Phillip Lord wrote: >> > > > > > > >>>>>> I would move to sourceforge or gna.org. This is >> > > > > > > > straightforward >> > > > > > > >>>> enough. >> > > > > > > >>>>> Then >> > > > > > > >>>>>> pull the current cvs into a svn as quite a lot PK> more >> > > people >> > > > are >> > > > > > > >> using >> > > > > > > >>>>> this >> > > > > > > >>>>>> nowadays (it's not essential though). >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> The jobs that need doing are: >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 1) checking patches for people without svn/cvs >> > access. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 2) adding people to svn/cvs where appropriate >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 3) organising a release schedule. In practice, PK> this >> > means >> > > > > > > > doing a >> > > > > > > >>>> new >> > > > > > > >>>>> release >> > > > > > > >>>>>> when ever enough patches have come in. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 4) Updating the website with new tarballs, new PK> zips. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> As an added extra: >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 5) add a top level makefile to build packages PK> for >> the >> > > > various >> > > > > > > >>>> linuxes -- >> > > > > > > >>>>> rpm, >> > > > > > > >>>>>> gentoo and the like. Or add autoconf support PK> which >> > > > should >> > > > > > > > bring >> > > > > > > >>>> the >> > > > > > > >>>>> former >> > > > > > > >>>>>> nearly for free I think. I'm not a real PK> package >> > expert. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Once the release mechanism is fixed, then use PK> can be >> > made >> > > > of >> > > > > > > >>>> existing >> > > > > > > >>>>>> patches. This would at least keep JDE ticking PK> over. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> I'm afraid I am not volunteering here; I rarely PK> code >> > Java >> > > > > > > > these >> > > > > > > >>>> days, so >> > > > > > > >>>>> I can >> > > > > > > >>>>>> live without. But it would be nice to have the >> option >> > to >> > > > use >> > > > > > > > Emacs >> > > > > > > >>>> for >> > > > > > > >>>>> those >> > > > > > > >>>>>> occasions that I do. >> > > > > > > >>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Phil >> > > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> OK, the weekend is here and I am ready to do this >> > thing. >> > > > First >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > >>>>> all, do we have buyoff from the author/current >> > maintainer >> > > > to >> > > > > > > > move >> > > > > > > >> JDEE >> > > > > > > >>>>> to sourceforge? I hereby officially ask the >> > individual(s) >> > > > in >> > > > > > > > charge >> > > > > > > >>>>> if it's all right for me to set up a JDEE PK> sourceforge >> > > > project >> > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > >> move >> > > > > > > >>>>> the CVS repository there, in accordance with the >> > promises >> > > I >> > > > > made >> > > > > > > >>>>> earlier in this thread. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- Paul Landes la...@ma... >> > > >> > > >> > > -- Paul Landes la...@ma... >> >> >> -- Paul Landes la...@ma... -- Phillip Lord, Phone: +44 (0) 191 222 7827 Lecturer in Bioinformatics, Email: phi...@ne... School of Computing Science, http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/phillip.lord Claremont Tower Room 909, skype: russet_apples Newcastle University, NE1 7RU |
From: Paul K. <Pau...@ma...> - 2008-01-07 18:33:00
|
Hi Phillip, Yes, that was my intention. Proven contributors would not need reviews unless they wanted them. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Lord [mailto:phi...@ne...] > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:23 AM > To: Paul Kinnucan > Cc: la...@ma...; Carlos Konstanski; Len Trigg; jdee- > de...@li... > Subject: Re: My role in the JDEE project >=20 >=20 > It's a question of whether it needs to be formal or not, is all. >=20 > Starting off with a degree of code review makes sense, for new > contributors. > It's not necessary all the time, though. Once a contributor has submitted > a > number of successful patches, then they probably don't need reviewing any > more. Errors will be picked up by people using things. >=20 > The only real concern is that it takes too much effort. At the current > time, > the quality of JDE is slipping simply because the code base is rusting. >=20 > Phil >=20 >=20 > >>>>> "PK" =3D=3D Paul Kinnucan <Pau...@ma...> writes: >=20 > PK> Contributing to the JDEE might be fun for the occasional contributor > who > PK> doesn't have to review the changes and update the doc. I've been > PK> performing those functions all along. I've reviewed every patch to > the > PK> JDEE and in many cases improved them significantly from what was > PK> submitted to me. I've also provided the doc for contributed > features. > PK> I'm concerned that if I step out of the loop, quality will slip. How > can > PK> that be avoided? >=20 > PK> Paul Kinnucan >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes > [mailto:la...@ma...] > >> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:55 PM To: Paul Kinnucan Cc: > >> Phi...@ne...; Carlos Konstanski; Len Trigg; jdee- > >> de...@so... Subject: RE: My role in the JDEE project > >> > >> The process you describe here is very close to what we do at Bank of > >> America and its a lot of process and ceremony. Not that it is all > bad, > >> but as you know, release meetings, code reviews, etc. takes a lot of > >> time. For example, can you elaborate on what you mean by "get them > >> reviewed?" This seems like a lot of everyone's time including yours, > >> particularly when you add on time for the release meetings you're > talking > >> about. > >> > >> Frankly, what you describe here is what I do all day and I think it > takes > >> a lot of the fun out of it. Writing JDEE code, at least what I've > done > >> with the patches I've submitted, has been more closer to other open > >> source projects I've contributed in the way it is more organic and > >> enjoyable. > >> > >> I think we simply need one or two people with access to commit > patches > >> and do a little documentation and releases for the short term until > the > >> project gets back the momentum it had. Only after this should we > consider > >> feature enhancements etc. > >> > >> This is all my opinion, but seems to be the kind of thing that seems > >> prudent based on previous experience. > >> > >> > >> Paul Kinnucan writes: > >> > Paul, > >> > > >> > Administering the JDEE project is not time-consuming. What is > >> > time-consuming is making and submitting code changes, updating the > PK> doc, > >> > and tech support. Recently I have not had the time to do a lot of > >> > coding, doc'ing, and tech supporting of the JDEE. As a result, the > PK> JDEE > >> > has come to a standstill. That is why there have been no releases > in > >> > the last two years. I am hoping that the superior and widely used > >> > support tools afforded by SourceForge, e.g., Subversion, wiki > pages, > >> > bug trackers', etc., > PK> will > >> > encourage others to pitch in with the work of maintaining, > PK> enhancing, > >> > and releasing the JDEE. That will allow me to focus on > PK> administering > >> and > >> > leading the JDEE, for which I believe I will have adequate time. > >> > > >> > What I propose is that you and other team members look at the bug, > >> > enhancement, and patch trackers, pick off items from them, > PK> implement > >> > them in your sandboxes, get them reviewed, commit them to the > >> > repository, and update the doc for user-visible changes. When a > >> critical > >> > mass of changes to the repository has been made, we'll make the > PK> next > >> > release. What the critical mass is can be determined by consensus > PK> among > >> > the team members. How quickly that mass is reached will depend on > PK> how > >> > much time team members spend on coding and doc'ing. If most of the > >> > coding and doc'ing is left up to me, it won't come that quickly. > >> > > >> > One thing we might do is have a release meeting (via the > PK> developer's > >> > mailing list) in which we decide what the content of the release > PK> will > >> be > >> > and the target date. The content would be determined by reviewing > PK> the > >> > trackers and choosing the enhancements and bug fixes that we > PK> determine > >> > to be most critical to the release. Each team member can submit a > PK> list > >> > of the tracker items that they would like to see implemented and > >> ideally > >> > would commit themselves to implement > >> > > >> > We could designate a release leader on a rotating basis. The > PK> release > >> > leader would be responsible for tracking progress, and ensuring > PK> that > >> all > >> > release targets have been met, and building the release zip files > PK> and > >> > posting them on the JDEE web site. BTW, the JDEE uses make to build > PK> the > >> > release zip files. One make command builds both the .zip and > PK> tar.gzip > >> > versions of the distribution. So building the distribution is a > PK> snap. > >> > > >> > These are just some thoughts. > >> > > >> > I am open to any and all suggestions for how to run the JDEE > PK> project. > >> > > >> > > >> > Paul K. > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes > >> > > [mailto:la...@ma...] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:24 AM > To: > >> > > Paul Kinnucan Cc: Phi...@ne...; Carlos > Konstanski; > >> > > Len Trigg Subject: My role in the JDEE project > >> > > > >> > > I realize there are some time saving tools at sourceforge, but > PK> how > >> > > does that change anything? > >> > > > >> > > Maybe I don't understand what you mean to do in your new role. > PK> Do > >> > > want those with commit access to make the patches and then wait > PK> for > >> > > your authorization to put out a release? If you don't have any > PK> more > >> > > time now than you did before, how is the project going continue > PK> if > >> all > >> > > decisions, assignments, releases (and all the others you > PK> mentioned) > >> > > have to be funneled through you? Will you really have time for > PK> all > >> of > >> > > this? > >> > > > >> > > I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't see > PK> how > >> > > this model will work without your time investment. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Paul Kinnucan writes: > >> > > > Hi Paul, > >> > > > > >> > > > After experiencing first-hand SourceForge's great project > >> > management > >> > > > tools, I have reconsidered my decision to step down from > >> leadership > >> > of > >> > > > the JDEE project. For the time being, I plan to continue in my > >> role > >> > as > >> > > > the project's "benevolent dictator," i.e., continue to have > PK> final > >> > > > authority on features, releases, software architecture, coding > >> > > > standards, developer assignments, etc. I would hope to hand > PK> off > >> > > > responsibility for many of these areas to other developers > PK> with > >> > > > demonstrated commitment to the JDEE project. For example, I > PK> would > >> > be > >> > > > perfectly content to hand over responsibility for making > PK> releases, > >> > > > development assignments, etc., to other project members who > PK> are > >> > willing > >> > > > and able to take on these responsibilities. > >> > > > > >> > > > If you still want to join the project as a developer, let me > PK> know > >> > and I > >> > > > will add you to the membership list. > >> > > > > >> > > > Regards, > >> > > > > >> > > > Paul Kinnucan > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Paul Landes > >> > > > > [mailto:la...@ma...] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 > 8:23 > >> > > > > PM To: Paul Kinnucan Subject: RE: Moving to sourceforge Was: > Re: > >> > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > >> > > > > not working > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Hi Paul, > >> > > > > > >> > > > > My sourceforge.net account is "zenos000". > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Have you decided what your involvement will be in the > PK> project > >> > going > >> > > > > forward. Who's going to run the project from now on. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I'd like to know how you intend on transitioning things > PK> before I > >> > > > > commit to anything. I hope you understand. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Thanks. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Paul Kinnucan writes: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Carlos, Paul, and Philip, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Would you like to join the SourceForge JDEE project as a > >> > > developer? > >> > > > In > >> > > > > > this role, you would be able to commit changes to the > PK> JDEE > >> CVS > >> > > > source > >> > > > > > repository and update the documentation. If you would > PK> like to > >> > > > become a > >> > > > > > JDEE developer, you should create a SourceForge account > PK> for > >> > > > yourself, > >> > > > > if > >> > > > > > you have not already done so, and send my your > PK> SourceForge > >> > account > >> > > > > name. > >> > > > > > I will then add you to the list of JDEE developers. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Paul K. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Len Trigg > >> > > > > > > [mailto:le...@ne...] Sent: Monday, December 17, > >> > > > > > > 2007 12:36 PM To: Paul Kinnucan Cc: Carlos Konstanski > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: > >> > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > >> > > > > > > not working > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Paul, > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I see that you have got as far as creating an initial > >> > project on > >> > > > > > > sourceforge for jdee. Can you assign joint project > PK> admin > >> > > > permissions > >> > > > > > > to a few of us so that we can begin some of the work? > PK> Eg > >> > moving > >> > > > docs, > >> > > > > > > web pages, setting up new mailing lists, is something > PK> we > >> > could > >> > > be > >> > > > > > > starting on now. Shifting the source repo is probably > >> better > >> > > done > >> > > > by > >> > > > > > > you. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I suggest myself, Carlos, Paul Landes, and Phil Lord. > PK> My > >> > > > sourceforge > >> > > > > > > account name is lenbok. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Cheers, Len > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 18/12/2007, at 3:07 AM, "Paul Kinnucan" > >> > > > > > > <Pau...@ma...> wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi, > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I plan to move the JDEE to SourceForge as soon as > >> > possible. I > >> > > > had > >> > > > > > > > hoped to do this earlier but have not been able to do > so > >> because > >> > of > >> > > a > >> > > > > host > >> > > > > > > > of job- and family-related issues as well as the > PK> holidays. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Please be patient. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Paul > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Konstanski > >> > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] > >> > > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:58 PM To: Len > Trigg > >> > > > > > > >> Cc: Carlos Konstanski; Paul Kinnucan; jd...@su... > >> > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: Moving to sourceforge Was: Re: > >> > > > > > > > jde-import-kill-extra-imports > >> > > > > > > >> not working > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> OK, I get it, you want someone to move JDEE now. I > PK> did > >> > > > express my > >> > > > > > > >> willingness to do the dirty work of moving JDEE. > PK> Paul > >> > > > Kinnucan > >> > > > > > > >> responded (in this very thread) by saying that it > PK> would > >> > be > >> > > > best if > >> > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > >> performed the task. That's where we stand now. We > PK> wait > >> > > until > >> > > > > Paul > >> > > > > > > >> gets an opportunity to do the migration, and then we > >> > carry on > >> > > > with > >> > > > > > > >> patch-applying and such in the new repository. If > PK> Paul > >> > were > >> > > > to > >> > > > > ask > >> > > > > > > >> for someone else to do the work, Paul Landes and I > PK> would > >> > both > >> > > > be > >> > > > > > > >> available. Out of respect for Paul Kinnucan's great > >> > > > contribution, > >> > > > > > I > >> > > > > > > >> think we should let him call the shots re: the > PK> migration > >> > of > >> > > > his > >> > > > > > code. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Carlos Konstanski > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> At Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:57:58 +1300, > >> > > > > > > >> Len Trigg wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> Hi Carlos, > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> You seemed ready, willing, and able to move JDEE to > >> > > > sourceforge. > >> > > > > > > > Can > >> > > > > > > >>> you just go ahead and do it please? It seems that > PK> if > >> we > >> > > > continue > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > >>> wait for Paul, we could be waiting indefinitely. > PK> If > >> > Paul > >> > > > finds > >> > > > > > time > >> > > > > > > >>> to help in the process that's OK, but we should not > >> > further > >> > > > delay > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > >>> move. > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> Cheers, Len. > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> At Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:47:15 -0500, > >> > > > > > > >>> Paul Kinnucan wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> Hi Carlos, > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> I think it would be best if I moved the JDEE > PK> myself to > >> > > > > > > > Sourceforge. I > >> > > > > > > >>>> will have this completed by next weekend. > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> Paul > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos > Konstanski > >> > > > [mailto:cko...@pi...] > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 5:06 PM To: > >> > > > > > > >>>>> jd...@su... Subject: Re: > >> > > > > > > >>>>> jde-import-kill-extra-imports not > >> working > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> At Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:58:25 +0000, > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Phillip Lord wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> I would move to sourceforge or gna.org. This is > >> > > > > > > > straightforward > >> > > > > > > >>>> enough. > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Then > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> pull the current cvs into a svn as quite a lot > PK> more > >> > > people > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > > >> using > >> > > > > > > >>>>> this > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> nowadays (it's not essential though). > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> The jobs that need doing are: > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 1) checking patches for people without svn/cvs > >> > access. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 2) adding people to svn/cvs where appropriate > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 3) organising a release schedule. In practice, > PK> this > >> > means > >> > > > > > > > doing a > >> > > > > > > >>>> new > >> > > > > > > >>>>> release > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> when ever enough patches have come in. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 4) Updating the website with new tarballs, new > PK> zips. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> As an added extra: > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> 5) add a top level makefile to build packages > PK> for > >> the > >> > > > various > >> > > > > > > >>>> linuxes -- > >> > > > > > > >>>>> rpm, > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> gentoo and the like. Or add autoconf support > PK> which > >> > > > should > >> > > > > > > > bring > >> > > > > > > >>>> the > >> > > > > > > >>>>> former > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> nearly for free I think. I'm not a real > PK> package > >> > expert. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Once the release mechanism is fixed, then use > PK> can be > >> > made > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > > >>>> existing > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> patches. This would at least keep JDE ticking > PK> over. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> I'm afraid I am not volunteering here; I rarely > PK> code > >> > Java > >> > > > > > > > these > >> > > > > > > >>>> days, so > >> > > > > > > >>>>> I can > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> live without. But it would be nice to have the > >> option > >> > to > >> > > > use > >> > > > > > > > Emacs > >> > > > > > > >>>> for > >> > > > > > > >>>>> those > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> occasions that I do. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Phil > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> OK, the weekend is here and I am ready to do this > >> > thing. > >> > > > First > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > >>>>> all, do we have buyoff from the author/current > >> > maintainer > >> > > > to > >> > > > > > > > move > >> > > > > > > >> JDEE > >> > > > > > > >>>>> to sourceforge? I hereby officially ask the > >> > individual(s) > >> > > > in > >> > > > > > > > charge > >> > > > > > > >>>>> if it's all right for me to set up a JDEE > PK> sourceforge > >> > > > project > >> > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > >> move > >> > > > > > > >>>>> the CVS repository there, in accordance with the > >> > promises > >> > > I > >> > > > > made > >> > > > > > > >>>>> earlier in this thread. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -- Paul Landes la...@ma... > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- Paul Landes la...@ma... > >> > >> > >> -- Paul Landes la...@ma... >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Phillip Lord, Phone: +44 (0) 191 222 7827 > Lecturer in Bioinformatics, Email: > phi...@ne... > School of Computing Science, > http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/phillip.lord > Claremont Tower Room 909, skype: russet_apples > Newcastle University, > NE1 7RU |