From: Andrew D. <ade...@gm...> - 2004-08-23 23:31:09
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how would that support priacy when you can just browse the filesystem.. I dont think you could extract anything from what is developed so far. is there a more detailed pros and cons list? On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:21:33 -0700, gc-...@li... <gc-...@li...> wrote: > Send Gc-linux-devel mailing list submissions to > gc-...@li... > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gc-linux-devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > gc-...@li... > > You can reach the person managing the list at > gc-...@li... > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Gc-linux-devel digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: GC DVD driver + Filesystem driver (Arthur Othieno) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:47:20 +0200 > To: Todd Jeffreys <to...@vo...> > Cc: aot...@us..., co...@us..., > hu...@us..., mi...@us..., > gc-...@li... > From: a.o...@bl... (Arthur Othieno) > Subject: [Gc-linux-devel] Re: GC DVD driver + Filesystem driver > Reply-To: gc-...@li... > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2004 at 09:20:27AM -0700, Todd Jeffreys wrote: > > I have written a GC DVD driver and an accompanying filesystem driver. It is > > now possible to "mount -t gcdvdfs /dev/dvd /mnt" and browse the filesystem. > > > > I would like to add the files to the CVS tree so I was wondering if you would > > grant me developer access on Sourceforge. I have several other projects on > > there and my username is paladine. > > > > Thanks for the consideration, > > > > Todd Jeffreys > > I'm afraid it's not that trivial. The issue of actual benefits vs. uses > arise, with a major concern about piracy. A simillar decision went for > the Xbox DVD fs (xdvdfs): http://www.xbox-linux.org/docs/needgdfs.html > > So, until benefits (of which I see very few, if any) out-number actual > uses, I'm afraid a conclusive decision to this remains to be made, hence > the Cc: to gc-linux-devel. Thanks. > > Arthur > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Gc-linux-devel mailing list > Gc-...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gc-linux-devel > > End of Gc-linux-devel Digest > |
From: Groepaz <gr...@gm...> - 2004-08-23 23:48:58
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On Tuesday 24 August 2004 01:30, Andrew DeBellis wrote: > how would that support priacy when you can just browse the > filesystem.. I dont think you could extract anything from what is > developed so far. is there a more detailed pros and cons list? i would assume that his driver would pretty much allow to either "cat" a complete dvd image or just "cp" the files over to a nfs share. however, you can already do that with tools that are available for a long time now, and no pirate would ever possibly want to go through the trouble of setting up gc-linux to do it. gpz |
From: Michael S. <st...@in...> - 2004-08-24 12:12:30
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On Aug 24, 2004, at 1:43 AM, Groepaz wrote: > i would assume that his driver would pretty much allow to either "cat" > a complete dvd image or just "cp" the files over to a nfs share. > > however, you can already do that with tools that are available for a > long time now, and no pirate would ever possibly want to go through > the trouble of setting up gc-linux to do it. The point is not, what can be done with it NOW, but what can be done with it in the future. At the moment, someone would have to set up Linux, i.e. have a Linux installation on an NFS server. But someone could hack together a ramdisk image that contains the interface, and uses the Linux kernel and DVD/filesystem drivers. So there can be a solution which consists only of a single .DOL, which can rip complete images or DVDs on a file-by-file basis onto an: * NFS * SMB * FTP server, without the need for the creator to implement NFS, SMB or FTP clients. The ramdisk image could even include an FTP server, so that people can use FTP clients on their computer to rip the CDs. Michael |
From: Jesse K. <j.k...@ti...> - 2004-08-24 13:17:51
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On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 14:12, Michael Steil wrote: > On Aug 24, 2004, at 1:43 AM, Groepaz wrote: > > i would assume that his driver would pretty much allow to either "cat" > > a complete dvd image or just "cp" the files over to a nfs share. > > > > however, you can already do that with tools that are available for a > > long time now, and no pirate would ever possibly want to go through > > the trouble of setting up gc-linux to do it. >=20 > The point is not, what can be done with it NOW, but what can be done=20 > with it in the future. At the moment, someone would have to set up=20 > Linux, i.e. have a Linux installation on an NFS server. > But someone could hack together a ramdisk image that contains the=20 > interface, and uses the Linux kernel and DVD/filesystem drivers. So=20 > there can be a solution which consists only of a single .DOL, which can=20 > rip complete images or DVDs on a file-by-file basis onto an: > * NFS > * SMB > * FTP > server, without the need for the creator to implement NFS, SMB or FTP=20 > clients. The ramdisk image could even include an FTP server, so that=20 > people can use FTP clients on their computer to rip the CDs. >=20 > Michael How about: "because it can be done", that would be enough reason for me to put it in. Jesse |
From: Mike G. <eb_...@sb...> - 2004-08-24 19:30:00
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Michael Steil <st...@in...> wrote: On Aug 24, 2004, at 1:43 AM, Groepaz wrote: > i would assume that his driver would pretty much allow to either "cat" > a complete dvd image or just "cp" the files over to a nfs share. > > however, you can already do that with tools that are available for a > long time now, and no pirate would ever possibly want to go through > the trouble of setting up gc-linux to do it. The point is not, what can be done with it NOW, but what can be done with it in the future. At the moment, someone would have to set up Linux, i.e. have a Linux installation on an NFS server. But someone could hack together a ramdisk image that contains the interface, and uses the Linux kernel and DVD/filesystem drivers. So there can be a solution which consists only of a single .DOL, which can rip complete images or DVDs on a file-by-file basis onto an: * NFS * SMB * FTP server, without the need for the creator to implement NFS, SMB or FTP clients. The ramdisk image could even include an FTP server, so that people can use FTP clients on their computer to rip the CDs. Michael Instead of adding it to CVS, to the "official" gclinux patches, why not just provide it as an "add-on" if you will? That way people can choose whether they want to add it or not. - Mike Goggin |
From: Groepaz <gr...@gm...> - 2004-08-24 18:40:48
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On Tuesday 24 August 2004 14:12, Michael Steil wrote: > The point is not, what can be done with it NOW, but what can be done > with it in the future. At the moment, someone would have to set up > Linux, i.e. have a Linux installation on an NFS server. > But someone could hack together a ramdisk image that contains the > interface, and uses the Linux kernel and DVD/filesystem drivers. So > there can be a solution which consists only of a single .DOL, which can > rip complete images or DVDs on a file-by-file basis onto an: > * NFS > * SMB > * FTP > server, without the need for the creator to implement NFS, SMB or FTP > clients. The ramdisk image could even include an FTP server, so that > people can use FTP clients on their computer to rip the CDs. the whole point is that tools to do exactly this _do exist already_. noone needs linux to do this. however the whole discussion remains pathetic. you dont ban ropes because they can be used to hang people either. gpz |
From: Michael S. <st...@in...> - 2004-08-24 23:02:31
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> the whole point is that tools to do exactly this _do exist already_. > noone needs linux to do this. With all these features (SMB, FTP etc.) included? > however the whole discussion remains pathetic. you dont ban ropes > because > they can be used to hang people either. But they do ban atomic bombs, because they can be used for killing *only*. There is *no* use for the drivers other than reading and copying games. Please do not misunderstand me: I appreciate the work that has been done, but the only possible use is piracy, unless we find a way to burn/press our own DVD. But even in this case, we would only need the device driver, not the filesystem driver, as we could use ISO9660 or UDF instead. Michael |
From: Groepaz <gr...@gm...> - 2004-08-25 11:27:30
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On Wednesday 25 August 2004 01:02, Michael Steil wrote: > > the whole point is that tools to do exactly this _do exist already_. > > noone needs linux to do this. > > With all these features (SMB, FTP etc.) included? no, since these features are irrelevant to a pirate or anyone else who wants an image of his dvd (there _are_ legitimate uses of that afterall, and making an image alone isnt piracy at all, distributing the image is). look at http://membres.lycos.fr/ooze/NGC/ for example - with a tool like this, why the hell would you bother using linux for making an image? and with http://www.sadistech.com/gcmtool/ (look! a sourceforge project!), why would you be waiting for a filesystem driver when this tool can do everything needed, easier than it could ever be using linux? > But they do ban atomic bombs, because they can be used for killing > *only*. > There is *no* use for the drivers other than reading and copying games. thats nonsence. what if i want to examine the contents of a game in order to reverse engineer them? what if i want to create a mediaplayer to play those movies on my MGS discs? what about serving the dvd contents to my pc so i can use them with the emulator i am writing? what about running executeables from retail games from within linux? i'm sure i could make this list a lot longer, and i'm sure other people have other uses too. > Please do not misunderstand me: I appreciate the work that has been > done, but the only possible use is piracy, unless we find a way to > burn/press our own DVD. But even in this case, we would only need the > device driver, not the filesystem driver, as we could use ISO9660 or > UDF instead. i personally think its just funny how people suddenly go bezerk when a certain thing is mildly related to piracy. i find it even more amusing that the same people seem to think that pirates are to stupid to write their own ripping software (or their own loaders for that matter). and at the same time, they release MAME for everyone to play all the huge amount of arcade roms they legally own, alright :=P especially the latter is *much* more questionable than a filesystem driver could ever be, and denying that the primary use of MAME is playing pirated roms is just equally pathetic as this whole filesystem dicsussion. gpz |
From: Michael S. <st...@in...> - 2004-08-25 11:52:17
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On Aug 25, 2004, at 1:21 PM, Groepaz wrote: >> But they do ban atomic bombs, because they can be used for killing >> *only*. >> There is *no* use for the drivers other than reading and copying >> games. > > thats nonsence. what if i want to examine the contents of a game in > order > to reverse engineer them? what if i want to create a mediaplayer to > play > those movies on my MGS discs? what about serving the dvd contents to my > pc so i can use them with the emulator i am writing? what about running > executeables from retail games from within linux? i'm sure i could make > this list a lot longer, and i'm sure other people have other uses too. These are very good points. > i personally think its just funny how people suddenly go bezerk when > a certain thing is mildly related to piracy. I know what I am talking about, because Linux has been abused before for questionable purposes: * Although Linux on the pay-tv decoder "dbox" is excellent, people have abused the flexibility of Linux to add code that hacks pay-tv. * Pirates have used Linux and the "raincoat" flashing program to modify their Xboxes so that they could play copied games. Raincoat was supposed to flash only Linux bootloaders. * Pirates have used Linux and the Linux FATX filesystem driver on the Xbox to modify the hard disk contents so that they could play copied games. The FATX driver was intended to make it possible to have Linux in an image file on a FATX drive. * Pirates have used the "DayX/Ernie&Bert/Font hack" as well as the MechInstaller solution on the Xbox to mod their Xbox for copied games. All these were indended for running Linux only. In the Xbox Linux project, we have always been very careful what to include and what to publish. For example, we had not published the source code of MechInstaller, and we have not written a filesystem driver for Xbox game DVDs. > i find it even more amusing > that the same people seem to think that pirates are to stupid to write > their own ripping software (or their own loaders for that matter). I my experience, they like to leverage the existing work for their purposes. It has been done with dbox Linux, raincoat, FATX and the font hack. I would continue to be very careful on what to release and what not. Certainly there are two important exceptions: * if there are already solutions for piracy, we can release our solution as well, if it does not make piracy easier * if our solution has a real sense for our project, we can of course release it. Your points are good, so I might agree to adding the code to the project (note that I am not implying I have some veto right or something), but I do not think that everyone should just "do what can be done". Michael |
From: Alex H. <ah...@in...> - 2004-08-25 23:10:45
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On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 05:51, Michael Steil wrote: > On Aug 25, 2004, at 1:21 PM, Groepaz wrote: > >> But they do ban atomic bombs, because they can be used for killing > >> *only*. > >> There is *no* use for the drivers other than reading and copying > >> games. > > > > thats nonsence. what if i want to examine the contents of a game in > > order > > to reverse engineer them? what if i want to create a mediaplayer to > > play > > those movies on my MGS discs? what about serving the dvd contents to my > > pc so i can use them with the emulator i am writing? what about running > > executeables from retail games from within linux? i'm sure i could make > > this list a lot longer, and i'm sure other people have other uses too. > > These are very good points. > > > i personally think its just funny how people suddenly go bezerk when > > a certain thing is mildly related to piracy. > > I know what I am talking about, because Linux has been abused before > for questionable purposes: > * Although Linux on the pay-tv decoder "dbox" is excellent, people have > abused the flexibility of Linux to add code that hacks pay-tv. > * Pirates have used Linux and the "raincoat" flashing program to modify > their Xboxes so that they could play copied games. Raincoat was > supposed to flash only Linux bootloaders. > * Pirates have used Linux and the Linux FATX filesystem driver on the > Xbox to modify the hard disk contents so that they could play copied > games. The FATX driver was intended to make it possible to have Linux > in an image file on a FATX drive. > * Pirates have used the "DayX/Ernie&Bert/Font hack" as well as the > MechInstaller solution on the Xbox to mod their Xbox for copied games. > All these were indended for running Linux only. > > In the Xbox Linux project, we have always been very careful what to > include and what to publish. For example, we had not published the > source code of MechInstaller, and we have not written a filesystem > driver for Xbox game DVDs. > > > i find it even more amusing > > that the same people seem to think that pirates are to stupid to write > > their own ripping software (or their own loaders for that matter). > > I my experience, they like to leverage the existing work for their > purposes. It has been done with dbox Linux, raincoat, FATX and the font > hack. > > I would continue to be very careful on what to release and what not. > Certainly there are two important exceptions: > * if there are already solutions for piracy, we can release our > solution as well, if it does not make piracy easier > * if our solution has a real sense for our project, we can of course > release it. > > Your points are good, so I might agree to adding the code to the > project (note that I am not implying I have some veto right or > something), but I do not think that everyone should just "do what can > be done". > > Michael > I think Michael's concerns were valid to a point, but with the tools to perform these tasks already easily available/accessible, I don't think there should be concern these efforts will be exploited beyond what is already possible. I do like the idea of being able to gain access to the media on the gc discs I own, I'm not a pirate if I want to play some music or video clips from a game disc... I'm not distributing this media, and it doesn't make sense to restrict it as such. My vote is to include the code, and end this mute argument. Alex |